(UK) Stephen Lawrence murder - Dobson & Norris Guilty

Batsy

KINGVictor wrote: »

You would have to provide proof that Lawrence was a gang-member, all you are doing here is hypothesizing.

It's probably too late for that. The police should have checked that properly at the time. In fact, they did ask Lawrence's friend whether or not he and Lawrence were members of a gang. Of course, his friend denied it.

I guess that the video footage of them planning racist attacks was also staged by the left wing media?

Just because a bunch of men were making racists comments in a house does not prove that they killed Stephem Lawrence.

ejmaztec

The Daily Mail seems to be taking the credit, and is now gunning for the other three.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2081980/Stephen-Lawrence-murder-Still-swaggering-got-away.html

But what has happened to the men who, in the eyes of many, have ‘got away with murder’?

El Weirdo

Batsy wrote: »

Just because a bunch of men were making racists comments in a house does not prove that they killed Stephem Lawrence.

Just as someone being black does not prove that he is a gang member.

KINGVictor

Batsy wrote: »

It's probably too late for that. The police should have checked that properly at the time. In fact, they did ask Lawrence's friend whether or not he and Lawrence were members of a gang. Of course, his friend denied it.



Just because a bunch of men were making racists comments in a house does not prove that they killed Stephem Lawrence.

If it is too late to prove that he was a gang-member, why bring it up?

Have you seen the footage? I dont think they were just making comments- they gave a highly demonstrative account of their racist views, just months after Lawrence was killed

Batsy

El Weirdo wrote: »

Just as someone being black does not prove that he is a gang member.

No, but almost all youth stabbings nowadays in London - and it was probably the same in 1993 - are gang related, and almost all of the victims and perpetrators of those stabbings are black. So you can see why I, and many others, think it likely that Lawrence was in a gang and was stabbed by a rival gang member (just like what happened to that black teenager on Oxford Street on Boxing Day).

Also, evidence shows that black boys are more likely to get involved in gangs than white boys. The black community in Britain's big cities realises this and have set up several initiatives to combat it.

Also look at gun crime. In London in 2006, 75% of the victims of gun crime and 79% of the suspects were from the Afro-Caribbean community.

Batsy

KINGVictor wrote: »

If it is too late to prove that he was a gang-member, why bring it up?

I'm telling you my belief that it is likely he was killed by a rival gang member.

Have you seen the footage? I dont think they were just making comments- they gave a highly demonstrative account of their racist views, just months after Lawrence was killed

Millions of people around the world would have made racist comments just months after Lawrence was killed. So did all those people kill him, too?

hooradiation

Batsy wrote: »

It's probably too late for that. The police should have checked that properly at the time. In fact, they did ask Lawrence's friend whether or not he and Lawrence were members of a gang. Of course, his friend denied it.

And, therefore, so?
Are you assuming denial means guilt now?

ejmaztec

Batsy wrote: »

No, but almost all youth stabbings nowadays in London - and it was probably the same in 1993 - are gang related, and almost all of the victims and perpetrators of those stabbings are black. So you can see why I, and many others, think it likely that Lawrence was in a gang and was stabbed by a rival gang member (just like what happened to that black teenager on Oxford Street on Boxing Day).

Also, evidence shows that black boys are more likely to get involved in gangs than white boys. The black community instead in Britain's big cities realises this and have set up several initiatives to combat it.

Also look at gun crime. In London in 2006, 75% of the victims of gun crime and 79% of the suspects were from the Afro-Caribbean community.

...and in the meantime, neo-nazi scumbags wander around helping old ladies across the road in between working for various charity organisations.

Batsy

hooradiation wrote: »

And, therefore, so?
Are you assuming denial means guilt now?

His friend was interviewed on TV last night saying that, at the time, the police asked him whether Lawrence was a part of a gang. He said that he thought it was not relevant in trying to bring Lawrence's killer to justice.

And I was thinking: "It WAS relevant in trying to bring his killer to justice. The police had every right to assume that Lawrence was in a gang and that he was murdered by a rival gang member. It is a common occurrence and therefore they had every right to believe that's what happened."

And, even though Lawrence's friend denied it, I believe the police should have looked more closely at whether or not Lawrence was part of a violent gang.

El Weirdo

Batsy wrote: »

So you can see why I, and many others, think it likely that Lawrence was in a gang and was stabbed by a rival gang member...

No. No I can't.

Batsy

ejmaztec wrote: »

...and in the meantime, neo-nazi scumbags wander around helping old ladies across the road in between working for various charity organisations.

I don't think neo-nazis - if that's what you think Norris and Dobson are - should be jailed for a murder they didn't commit.

hooradiation

Batsy wrote: »

No, but almost all youth stabbings nowadays in London - and it was proba So you can see why I, and many others, think it likely that Lawrence was in a gang and was stabbed by a rival gang member

I can certainly see why you'd think that.
It's the lazy option for people who can't be arsed to think critically about things, but of course "other people think it" so, clearly, it must be true.
Right?

Batsy

El Weirdo wrote: »

No. No I can't.

Maybe you will when you switch on your telly, put it on the news, and see how many teenagers are murdered in London's streets each year.

Maybe you will see it even more when you see that a very high proportion - most - of those teenagers who are killed on London's streets each year are black and members of gangs.

So it's very reasonable to assume that Lawrence's murder was yet another gang-related one.

hooradiation

Batsy wrote: »

His friend was interviewed on TV last night saying that, at the time, the police asked him whether Lawrence was a part of a gang. He said that he thought it was not relevant in trying to bring Lawrence's killer to justice.

And I was thinking: "It WAS relevant in trying to bring his killer to justice. The police had every right to assume that Lawrence was in a gang and that he was murdered by a rival gang member. It is a common occurrence and therefore they had every right to believe that's what happened."

And, even though Lawrence's friend denied it, I believe the police should have looked more closely at whether or not Lawrence was part of a violent gang.

A simple "yes" would have done.
Now you've gone and shown exactly why you're not to be listened to.

You are convinced that Lawrence, because he's black, must be part of a "violent gang". Everything you're arguing is predicated on this baseless assumption.
Well done, you've exposed the wretched excuse of fallacy you pass off as reasoning. It's pathetic.

You'd probably be better off not breaking ranks with the Daily Mail, for once.

Batsy

hooradiation wrote: »

I can certainly see why you'd think that.
It's the lazy option for people who can't be arsed to think critically about things, but of course "other people think it" so, clearly, it must be true.
Right?

Nah. The lazy option is assuming that because a black teenager was murdered that his killer or killers HAD to be neo-nazi, racist, BNP-voting white men.

When, in actual fact, most murders of black teenagers on London's streets are committed by black rival gang members.

ejmaztec

Batsy wrote: »

I don't think neo-nazis - if that's what you think Norris and Dobson are - should be jailed for a murder they didn't commit.

They should because they did.

It seems that they liked carrying knives.

Kevin London, a black fellow pupil at Crown Woods, says Dobson underwent a Jekyll and Hyde transformation when he was with the brothers. And at 15, Kevin became one of their early targets.
He was playing football during the school lunch break when he was rushed by a gang including Dobson — who had once been friendly — and badly beaten up. The following year, 1992, Kevin was set upon by the mob again, in a manner that bore chilling similarities to the attack on Stephen a few months later.
Incensed that Kevin was dating a white girl, Neil Acourt, Dobson and their cronies unleashed a torrent of racist abuse after spotting the couple on the other side of the road.
‘He [Dobson] is going “n****r this” and “n****r that”, and I was going: “Gary, what’s wrong with you? I know you. You go my school.” ’
But his entreaties were ignored, and within seconds the gang were upon them. ‘Gary’s getting ready to punch me when I see this knife flash by,’ says Kevin. ‘I think it was Neil Acourt, but I can’t be sure. It was only because Katie [his girlfriend] pulled me backwards that it missed my arm.’
What happened afterwards has always been disputed. Kevin insists he reported the attack, but though the police took a statement, they failed to follow it up.
If they had, he says, Stephen might now be alive. But Scotland Yard claims the incident came to light only after Stephen’s murder


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2081935/Stephen-Lawrence-murder-What-jury-wasnt-told-Gary-Dobson.html#ixzz1iVuHceaK

El Weirdo

Batsy wrote: »

So it's very reasonable to assume that Lawrence's murder was yet another gang-related one.

What evidence (apart from the fact that he was black) do you have for Stephen Lawrence being in a gang?

KINGVictor

Batsy wrote: »

I'm telling you my belief that it is likely he was killed by a rival gang member.



Millions of people around the world would have made racist comments just months after Lawrence was killed. So did all those people kill him, too?

Again I ask you, have you seen the footage? They not only made racist comments, they demonstrated how they would kill "blacks and Pakis" with knives. That is not just some off hand racist comment, that is what they believed in.

Now regarding your senseless defense of these men, can you explain to me how the prosecuting team were able to prove that Dobson and Norris had Lawrence's blood and hair on their clothing? In fact in Dobson's case there was a 1 in 2 billion chance that the blood wasn't his.

Stop been disingenuous by bringing up irrelevancies and more importantly I suggest you start reading more widely.

Batsy

ejmaztec wrote: »

They should because they did.

Well, I don't think they did.

It seems that they liked carrying knives.

Oh, well. That proves it, then. They MUST have murdered Lawrence!! They carried knives so logic dictates that they killed Lawrence!

charlemont

Batsy wrote: »

His friend was interviewed on TV last night saying that, at the time, the police asked him whether Lawrence was a part of a gang. He said that he thought it was not relevant in trying to bring Lawrence's killer to justice.

And I was thinking: "It WAS relevant in trying to bring his killer to justice. The police had every right to assume that Lawrence was in a gang and that he was murdered by a rival gang member. It is a common occurrence and therefore they had every right to believe that's what happened."

And, even though Lawrence's friend denied it, I believe the police should have looked more closely at whether or not Lawrence was part of a violent gang.

Your talking through your ass. If he was in a gang it would have gotten out by now.

hooradiation

Batsy wrote: »

Nah. The lazy option is assuming that because a black teenager was murdered that his killer or killers HAD to be neo-nazi, racist, BNP-voting white men.

Well at least you can recognise faulty reasoning when you intentionally use it as to make a strawman.
Lets see if we can't hammer some more basic logic into you by the time you eventually slink away, shall we?

Batsy wrote: »

When, in actual fact, most murders of black teenagers on London's streets are committed by black rival gang members.

However, the problem, the single mistake you constantly make is then going
"most murders are by rival gang members" therefore means that THIS murder was committed by rival gang members.

This is why your entire reasoning is stupid.
It's a fallacy, it's moronic and no matter how many time you attempt to present it as reasonable or, heaven fucking forbid "common sense" it remains as such.

Maybe you should dazzle us with your forensics knowledge, seeing as you claim the evidence is 'flimsy' instead of trying to argue from your current shitheap of a position

ejmaztec

Batsy wrote: »

Well, I don't think they did.



Oh, well. That proves it, then. They MUST have murdered Lawrence!! They carried knives so logic dictates that they killed Lawrence!

Well, I don't think that they were members of the local whittling club. The article proves that they had a history, and not just one of making racist comments.

Batsy

KINGVictor wrote: »

Again I ask you, have you seen the footage? They not only made racist comments, they demonstrated how they would kill "blacks and Pakis" with knives. That is not just some off hand racist comment, that is what they believed in.

That is still not proof that they killed Stephen Lawrence.

Now regarding your senseless defense of these men, can you explain to me how the prosecuting team were able to prove that Dobson and Norris had Lawrence's blood and hair on their clothing?

I've already explained that already.

All the evidence we are talking about is a bloodstain smaller than a full stop on the inside of a jacket collar and maybe 2 or 3 odd very short hairs or fibres.

However, the potential for cross-contamination was huge. Lawrence's and the suspects' clothing mingled in the same atmosphere and storage facilities. This is something that the defence mentioned in the trial and called it very shoddy that the suspects' clothing should have been stored right alongside Lawrence's clothing.

When Sion Jenkins was jailed in 1997 for murdering his 13-year-old foster daughter Billy-Jo the big thing that sealed his fate was the amount of her blood was was splattered on Sion's jacket. "Oh, well. That means he killed her!" we all thought.

WRONG! Eventually, Jenkins was released on appeal and got a shedload of compo. He was fully pardoned for the murder. It turned out that he had discovered Billy-Jo lying injured emitting the blood from her mouth as she exhaled, which went onto his shirt.

If he can eventually be pardoned for that on appeal I think it's right that Dobson and Norris appeal against a conviction based on even flimsier evidence.

And how come no forensic evidence whatsoever was found against other suspects in the gang?

Because no member of that gang murdered Lawrence (although we are told by the likes of the BBC and others that the other gang members took part in the killing, too).

Just for the record...

In 1995 (just 2 years after Lawrence's murder), the British Crime Survey estimated that 382,000 offences were racially motivated. Of these 238,000 were against white people.

Racially motivated incidents (Table 8.1)
8.2 The British Crime Survey (BCS) (Percy 1998) estimated that, in 1995 382,000 offences (2% of all incidents reported by the survey) were
considered by the victim to be racially motivated. Of these 143,000 were committed against ethnic minorities and 238,000 against white people.

Dudess

Well you WOULD be of the opinion that they shouldn't be convicted - simply because he was black. I'm absolutely certain that's why, going by your vile previous posts.

OPENROAD

Batsy wrote: »

Well, I don't think they did.



Oh, well. That proves it, then. They MUST have murdered Lawrence!! They carried knives so logic dictates that they killed Lawrence!

Forensic evidence?

Guy:Incognito

Elliemental wrote: »

Over twenty years too late,.

Not quite, he was only killed coming up on 19 years ago. Minority report?

Good to see they finally got locked up. Dont know if its a good or bad thing it took this long. If they were caught and jailled straight away they'd probably be out now while still relatively young. By the time they get out now at least they will be older and hopefully less of a threat. Would have been easier on the family though I'd say.

BabeeB

Thank god justice came around and hit them in the face

bwatson

Dudess wrote: »

Well you WOULD be of the opinion that they shouldn't be convicted - simply because he was black. I'm absolutely certain that's why, going by your vile previous posts.

The average Irish person will be far more sympathetic towards black people because there are far fewer, far smaller black communities in the Republic at the moment. Generally, blacks are by far the most viciously racist section of British society, not just to whites, but mainly to whites.

Of course racism exists in all peoples in Britain, but most will not accept that it is anyone but the native whites who are the perpetrators of such crimes.

El Weirdo

Batsy wrote: »

Because no member of that gang murdered Lawrence (although we are told by the likes of the BBC and others that the other gang members took part in the killing, too).

Just for the record...

In 1995 (just 2 years after Lawrence's murder), the British Crime Survey estimated that 382,000 offences were racially motivated. Of these 238,000 were against white people.

*cough*

ejmaztec

I expect the mad racist woman who made her ranting debut on Youtube also thinks they were innocent.

starviewadams

bwatson wrote: »

The average Irish person will be far more sympathetic towards black people because there are far fewer, far smaller black communities in the Republic at the moment. Generally, blacks are by far the most viciously racist section of British society, not just to whites, but mainly to whites.

Of course racism exists in all peoples in Britain, but most will not accept that it is anyone but the native whites who are the perpetrators of such crimes.

Any sort of proof to back up those claims?

K-9

Batsy wrote: »

No, but almost all youth stabbings nowadays in London - and it was probably the same in 1993 - are gang related, and almost all of the victims and perpetrators of those stabbings are black. So you can see why I, and many others, think it likely that Lawrence was in a gang and was stabbed by a rival gang member (just like what happened to that black teenager on Oxford Street on Boxing Day).

Also, evidence shows that black boys are more likely to get involved in gangs than white boys. The black community in Britain's big cities realises this and have set up several initiatives to combat it.

Also look at gun crime. In London in 2006, 75% of the victims of gun crime and 79% of the suspects were from the Afro-Caribbean community.

You don't judge cases based on generalities, you judge it on the evidence of each case. Its the famed justice system Britain is so proud of.

hooradiation

bwatson wrote: »

Of course racism exists in all peoples in Britain, but most will not accept that it is anyone but the native whites who are the perpetrators of such crimes.

Yup, that's exactly it.
Thankfully we have brave crusaders like yourself to correct the misconceptions that don't exist.

Arianna_26

bwatson wrote: »

The average Irish person will be far more sympathetic towards black people because there are far fewer, far smaller black communities in the Republic at the moment. Generally, blacks are by far the most viciously racist section of British society, not just to whites, but mainly to whites.

Of course racism exists in all peoples in Britain, but most will not accept that it is anyone but the native whites who are the perpetrators of such crimes.

So what you are saying is that the only reason any Irish people have sympathy for an innocent man like Stephen Lawrence is because we don't have to deal with black communities here? Wow.

Guy:Incognito

Batsy wrote: »

And then (almost 20 years later) they find a couple of white men who fit the bill, take a couple of photos of them and make the men in the photos look as thuggish as possible, and then put every pressure on a jury to ensure that they are banged up.

They just picked these couple of guys at random last year and decided to stick them on trial did they?

Even if your right and it wasnt racially motivated and was one gang killing a member of another, is 15 years not acceptible for murder, no?

ItsAWindUp

Batsy wrote: »

Oh, well. That proves it, then. They MUST have murdered Lawrence!! They carried knives so logic dictates that they killed Lawrence!

They carried knives so logic dictates that they were out to seriously injure or kill somebody. That, coupled with forensics and other evidence, in my opinion proves their guilt beyond all reasonable doubt.

bwatson

starviewadams wrote: »

Any sort of proof to back up those claims?

Experience.

The experience of others, also.

BabeeB

id say in the next week or two?

ejmaztec

bwatson wrote: »

Experience.

The experience of others, also.

In every single community from Land's End to John o'Groats?

hooradiation

bwatson wrote: »

starviewadams wrote:

Any sort of proof to back up those claims?

None whatsoever.

Fixed that post for you there.
Because I'm nice like that

tigger123

bwatson wrote: »

Experience.

The experience of others, also.

Ah c'mon now, share with the group! Don't be getting all coy now!

bwatson

Arianna_26 wrote: »

So what you are saying is that the only reason any Irish people have sympathy for an innocent man like Stephen Lawrence is because we don't have to deal with black communities here? Wow.

wow? Sorry, I feel unable to further communicate with a person who uses the phrase "wow" in a post. You were obviously not suddenly overwhelmed with shock as you were able to type a perfectly coherant reply. Your dramatics are embarrassing. You can now consider yourself on my ignore list.

BabeeB

they should be in jail

ItsAWindUp

bwatson wrote: »

wow? Sorry, I feel unable to further communicate with a person who uses the phrase "wow" in a post. You were obviously not suddenly overwhelmed with shock as you were able to type a perfectly coherant reply. Your dramatics are embarrassing. You can now consider yourself on my ignore list.

The retort of somebody who knows he has lost the debate and is therefore unwilling to further argue his point

bwatson

ItsAWindUp wrote: »

The retort of somebody who knows he has lost the debate and is therefore unwilling to further argue his point

I am not debating anything, there is nothing to debate.

The attitudes towards black communities in the Republic and in Britain differ vastly. This is an obvious reality. What do you want to debate?

Guy:Incognito

bwatson wrote: »

Experience.

The experience of others, also.

As a matter of interest how come the members of this gang Stephen Lawrence was in never retalliated?

ItsAWindUp

bwatson wrote: »

I am not debating anything, there is nothing to debate.

The attitudes towards black communities in the Republic and in Britain differ vastly. This is an obvious reality. What do you want to debate?

Arianna_26 made a valid point and posed a question towards you, which you are refusing to answer

bwatson

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

As a matter of interest how come the members of this gang Stephen Lawrence was in never retalliated?

I suggest you go back and read the last few pages. I have not suggested that Lawrence was a gang member nor the victim of a gang related attack. I am not so sure why you are directing the question at me.

tigger123

bwatson wrote: »

I am not debating anything, there is nothing to debate.

The attitudes towards black communities in the Republic and in Britain differ vastly. This is an obvious reality. What do you want to debate?

You said this was down to your "experience", "and the experience of others", I think people just want to know what you meant by this.

Arianna_26

bwatson wrote: »

wow? Sorry, I feel unable to further communicate with a person who uses the phrase "wow" in a post. You were obviously not suddenly overwhelmed with shock as you were able to type a perfectly coherant reply. Your dramatics are embarrassing. You can now consider yourself on my ignore list.

Yeah, wow, I don't usually throw that word about but your comments were just so incredibly ignorant they brought it out of me.