Paul O'Connell signs 2 year international contract (until end of 2013/14)

myflipflops

Pretty shocked by this.

I'm not sure how Irelands best lock forward got a new contract.

buck65

Zzippy wrote: »

In fairness it was a lot more than a few internet posters, it was a common topic of debate amongst rugby people around the country - never mind online - as to why DK continued to pick DOC when Cullen, McCarthy and Tuohy were all in much better form. You could arguably add Toner to that list this year, but it seems that no matter how well any of the others play DOC will get the starting berth.

Toner? Are you for real, the guy is only now starting to look like a Pro12 player - fair play to him but I doubt he will ever be real international standard.
Tuohy and McCarthy are decent players but not in O Callaghan's league. Cullen deserved more gametime in green.
I think you're wrong to assume that O Callaghan will get the starting berth, he has lost his place in Munster to Ryan and you can bet Kidney is looking at options for this year.

smurphy29

Toner has had his issues in the past, and played poorly last season by any standard, but if you've watched much of him you'd realise he's been one of the success stories for Leinster this year.

He's in Joe Schmidt's 'home' line-up and outplayed Richie Gray in the Glasgow match, and was outstanding in the Bath game before Christmas. He has also had a good impact off the bench in the two away games, and will probably start the remaining group games. He'll be in the extended squad for Ireland for sure. He has assuredly had a better tseason than DOC, who has done... what exactly has he done this year (since the RWC)? Lost his place to Donncha Ryan and not much else.

padraig.od

buck65 wrote: »

Correct me if I'm wrong here - Central contracts are given to aprox 30 players who are consistently in the Irish squad?
Why such surprise that O Callaghan got a 3 year contract a year ago, would it not be expected that he would be on the panel for the remainder of this season and next season? He is still starting most of Ireland's games remember.
Can't really understand the fuss.

Its more like 15 - 20 these days, the number was reduced a few years back.

smurphy29

buck65 wrote: »

Tuohy and McCarthy are decent players but not in O Callaghan's league.

Hmmm, that all depends on what you're looking for in your locks. There are plenty of areas where DOC is several leagues below Tuohy, for instance carrying and handling the ball. McCarthy is also a more athletic, dynamic player than O'Callaghan and a better lineout forward.

O'Callaghan is a fairly earthbound lineout man, and not especially powerful in mauls or scrums. As we all know, he's all about workrate - he hits rucks and makes tackles close to the ruck all day long. That's fine and all, he's built a successful career out of it, but you could argue that the modern game calls for a No.4 who can handle and even run with the ball (Gray, Lawes, Hines), or offers ballast in tight play (Nallet, Shaw, Hines again). There are many coaches who would pick Tuohy or McCarthy over O'Callaghan.

CIARAN_BOYLE

padraig.od wrote: »

Its more like 15 - 20 these days, the number was reduced a few years back.

My count is 22 at the moment from best guestimates when new contracts are announced

Mr.Applepie

smurphy29 wrote: »

Indeed, I must be missing something too. My understanding from watching him this season is that he's still the best lock in Europe. The much vaunted "Lions in waiting" like Gray and Lawes are still not fit to lace his boots. In additional to his lineout prowess, he is arguably the finest gatherer of restarts in world rugby. It won them the game in Castres.

If people are going to begrudge Paul O'Connell another central contract at the not so ripe age of 32, we might as well all pack up and go home. He's a second row; there's on reason he can't play on until 2015. Shaw, Nallet, Thorne and Matfield were all influential up to the age of 35/36. I expect him to be a test Lion in 2013 and at least an impact player in the 2015 world cup. A new generation of locks are coming through (Tuohy, Ryan, Toner) and playing alongside Paulie will be the best education possible.

buck65 wrote: »

Err , what? Am I missing something here?

I think you may have taken me up wrong. I don't begrudge him the contract at all. I just think pre his injury worries, he was the best lineout operator in the world and regularly completely dominated opposition lineouts and stole ball at will. Since his injury I just don't think he's been out his absolute best in that area.

I'm not comparing him relative to other players. I'm comparing him relative to his form pre injury.

padraig.od

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

My count is 22 at the moment from best guestimates when new contracts are announced

yeah, TOLs is up this summer, doubt he'll get a new one. Is Leamys one up this year too?

danthefan

phog wrote: »

Impossible to quantify really. What is certain is that rugby players have more analysis done now than ever before, players are measured in training and during games, I know if I was handing out contracts I'd be lead by those that have the facts rather than whatever amount of rugby supporters around the country may say. If you were to believe some rugby supporters you'd be dropping Heaslip after the world cup he is supposed to have such a poor tournament.

DOC has been dropped though. Firmly out of the Munster starting XV.

There are some odd discrepancies when it comes to central contracts, for example D'Arcy doesn't have one but Paddy Wallace does, Leamy has one but SOB doesn't.


Another point - POC is mentioned above as the finest gatherer of restarts in the world, Ireland's restarts over the last 2 seasons or so have generally been very poor, has been a real struggle to regain possession.

haven't had a chance to read the thread, who are we begrudging a central contract at this stage?

By my count there's at least 4 that should be "up for grabs" as the player shouldn't be involved in may more Ireland squads.

danthefan

Deleted User wrote: »

haven't had a chance to read the thread, who are we begrudging a central contract at this stage?

By my count there's at least 4 that should be "up for grabs" as the player shouldn't be involved in may more Ireland squads.

I've just read the first page or two, seems to be the very odd notion that POC shouldn't have gotten a central contract because he wouldn't move anyway, or something of the sort. Here was me thinking central contracts were for the best and most important players in the country. Let's hand them out to second string players instead, yeah!

phog

danthefan wrote: »

DOC has been dropped though. Firmly out of the Munster starting XV.

There are some odd discrepancies when it comes to central contracts, for example D'Arcy doesn't have one but Paddy Wallace does, Leamy has one but SOB doesn't.


Another point - POC is mentioned above as the finest gatherer of restarts in the world, Ireland's restarts over the last 2 seasons or so have generally been very poor, has been a real struggle to regain possession.

Dropped or rotated? It seems when a Munster player doesn't start for his province it's because he's dropped but it's rotation when it happens elsewhere.

regards to central contracts, maybe the players you mention weren't happy wioth whats on offer and took a provincial contract and whatever extras they get for training and playing with Ireland.

Restarts - Kickers fault, lifters fault, support players not in right position, more analysis on POC from the opposition, it could a 100 things. Look at how SOB is now being watched more since he broke onto the scene, Heaslip is similar, he had a free run there for a while but then the opposition realise he's a danger man and suddenly it almost looks like a drop in form from him.

Are you just being overly defensive or do you believe that DOC deserves to have a central contract ahead of Ryan / Tuohy / Toner? Or AN other tbh. If we are only saying that POC will be a guaranteed starter for Ireland for the next 18 months in the second row, isn't it worth removing that second contract and allowing provinces control their own players instead?

In 18 months DOC won't be involved in top level rugby in this country barring a minor miracle or a coach's incredible stubborness and ignorance.

danthefan

phog wrote: »

Dropped or rotated? It seems when a Munster player doesn't start for his province it's because he's dropped but it's rotation when it happens elsewhere.

Rotated for 4 HEC games in a row? Would you stop. Giving DOC a 3 year central contract was blatantly not the best use of resources.

Just in case I need to spell it out POC obviously should be on a central contract and him signing on again is good news.

phog

Deleted User wrote: »

Are you just being overly defensive or do you believe that DOC deserves to have a central contract ahead of Ryan / Tuohy / Toner? Or AN other tbh. If we are only saying that POC will be a guaranteed starter for Ireland for the next 18 months in the second row, isn't it worth removing that second contract and allowing provinces control their own players instead?

In 18 months DOC won't be involved in top level rugby in this country barring a minor miracle or a coach's incredible stubborness and ignorance.

DOC's contract isn't up for renewal so it irrelevant really. I just find it strange when Munster dont start a player he is deemed to be dropped but elsewhere it's rotation.

phog

danthefan wrote: »

Rotated for 4 HEC games in a row? Would you stop. Giving DOC a 3 year central contract was blatantly not the best use of resources.

Just in case I need to spell it out POC obviously should be on a central contract and him signing on again is good news.

So Shane Jennings is dropped too, has he a central contract?

durkadurka

Hasnt DOC been 'rotated' for all the big HEC games when Ryan was fit?

danthefan

phog wrote: »

So Shane Jennings is dropped too, has he a central contract?

I don't believe so.

CIARAN_BOYLE

phog wrote: »

Dropped or rotated? It seems when a Munster player doesn't start for his province it's because he's dropped but it's rotation when it happens elsewhere.

He has called it being dropped in the press. I would probably call it rotation cause he has started one HEC game.

phog

phog wrote: »

So Shane Jennings is dropped too, has he a central contract?

Never been on a central contract.

I think you need to stop going into the D mode whenever someone stops being overly nice about a Munster player tbh.

danthefan

http://www.limerickleader.ie/sport/o_callaghan_to_fight_for_place_1_3276193

Donncha O'Callaghan wrote:

“Being dropped felt like somebody had put their hand down my throat and ripped my heart out. The rule at Munster is that you can be sour about it for a day if you want, but that’s it. . .

phog

I doubt any player will accept not getting the starting jersey as anything but being dropped. However I think most supporters recognise that coaches pick teams for a variety of reasons, squad rotation would one, kicking a player in the backside may be another.

DOC has had 57% H/C and 32% Pro12 gametime for Munster, the Pro12 exclude games that he hasn't available through W/C or Irish camp. I reckon a lot of squad players would bite the hand of their coach for gametime like that.

danthefan

So you know better than him. Ok.

Tox56

Thinking DOC hasn't been dropped is purely naive, it's blatantly obvious.

phog

danthefan wrote: »

So you know better than him. Ok.

Have you read any or many autobiographies of professional players? Have any of them mentioned that were delighted to be rotated for a particular game?

I'd hazard a guess at my second question, zero, all players want to play the game.

phog

Tox56 wrote: »

Thinking DOC hasn't been dropped is purely naive, it's blatantly obvious.

If he was dropped how come he has so much gametime?

thomond2006

DOC is only truly "dropped" if he doesn't start for Ireland.

Benny Cake

thomond2006 wrote: »

DOC is only truly "dropped" if he doesn't start for Ireland.

Wouldn't really agree. If DOC is not starting against Castre, assuming he is fit & available for selection, then he has categorically been dropped.

phog

Benny Cake wrote: »

Wouldn't really agree. If DOC is not starting against Castre, assuming he is fit & available for selection, then he has categorically been dropped.

Is this for all players that don't start the next round of H/C games or just Donncha? Who do you think he's been dropped for?

Tox56

phog wrote: »

If he was dropped how come he has so much gametime?

Starting 1/4 HEC games, compared to 4/4 this time last year isn't getting dropped?

phog

Tox56 wrote: »

Starting 1/4 HEC games, compared to 4/4 this time last year isn't getting dropped?

Dropped for who?

Tox56

phog wrote: »

Dropped for who?

Ryan?

Podge_irl

It's 'dropped' when talking about DOC and 'rotation' when talking about certain Leinster players because there is a culture of rotation under Schmidt and not one under McGahan. The list of Leinster players to start all HEC games is quite small.

phog

Tox56 wrote: »

Ryan?

You see I call that rotation as Ryan is as talented as Donncha.


Compare their game time and the rest of the lads involved in the Irish squad.

Player RPD12 H/C
Paul O'Connell 20.3% 100.0%
Ronan O'Gara 18.1% 100.0%
Conor Murray 14.6% 75.3%
Donncha O'Callaghan 31.9% 56.9%
Donnacha Ryan 21.4% 54.7%
Denis Leamy 23.0% 41.6%

irishbucsfan

phog wrote: »

You see I call that rotation as Ryan is as talented as Donncha.

In what realm is being left out of the team for 3 games in a row "rotation"!?

Tox56

phog wrote: »

You see I call that rotation as Ryan is as talented as Donncha.


Compare their game time and the rest of the lads involved in the Irish squad.

Player RPD12 H/C
Paul O'Connell 20.3% 100.0%
Ronan O'Gara 18.1% 100.0%
Conor Murray 14.6% 75.3%
Donncha O'Callaghan 31.9% 56.9%
Donnacha Ryan 21.4% 54.7%
Denis Leamy 23.0% 41.6%

I repeat what was said above. The results are slightly skewed for the HEC because of 1 game that DOC played 80 minutes as Ryan came on in the backrow, but the general point is that not getting selected for 3/4 games is not simply "rotation".

Higher

DOC is definitely dropped. Who on earth would even try to dispute that?