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Returning a faulty toy...store being awkward
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04-01-2012 7:44pm#1Hi,
I purchased a toy as a gift for one of the family a few weeks before Christmas.
It was bought from a large Irish toy retailer (dont know if I can mention names here so I wont!)
I bought a few other items from the store at the same time and used Laser to pay.
On Christmas day the kid tried the toy and it wouldnt work properly.
I live about 2 hours away & seeing as theres one of the retail chains stores near their home I let his parents being it back to see if they could exchange for a working one or get something else for their kid.
Just got a call saying they tried doing that and the store are being awkward as they have no receipt. I think it may be in the recycle bin by now but am still looking for it...but I just looked at my bank statement online and the purchase is there with the name & location of the toy store, a 2 letter 4 digit reference number, the date, and the total amount paid that day.
I checked my consumer rights and they say any proof of purchase is a receipt. My query is seeing as I bought a few other things at the same time is there any way of getting a statement to seperate out the individual goods bought, so as to show the one item I am trying to prove I bought there?
They also say they have to have a receipt for any goods over 50euro...
Anyway, any help on what I can do to get them to refund/exchange would be great, thanks!0
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The line on your statement is satisfactory proof of purchase, show them that and they have to repair, replace or refund. Don't take any crap from them, they are just being awkward.
The "anything over €50" thing is fantasy.
Having said all that, it is probably best to go back to the store you purchased it from, sometimes these chain toy stores are franchises and have different owners in different locations, if that's the case then it's the store you bought it from that has the responsibility.0 -
Can you see the staff member that sold it to you in the store?
It would be a massive help if you went in and talked to that member of staff .
They might remember you and look it up.0 -
The line on your statement is satisfactory proof of purchase, show them that and they have to repair, replace or refund. Don't take any crap from them, they are just being awkward.
The "anything over €50" thing is fantasy.
Having said all that, it is probably best to go back to the store you purchased it from, sometimes these chain toy stores are franchises and have different owners in different locations, if that's the case then it's the store you bought it from that has the responsibility.
How is it satisfactory proof of purchase? It's proof that this person spent €X in that store, that's all. What most shops can do is using the statement for a date and the customer's information for a rough time of day, look up a transaction, though this may not be doable on site and may have to be done through a head office facility. Until that there's no onus on the store to do a single thing and they are hardly being "awkward" by adhering to what they are entitled to.0 -
therealgirl wrote: »Hi,
I purchased a toy as a gift for one of the family a few weeks before Christmas.
It was bought from a large Irish toy retailer (dont know if I can mention names here so I wont!)
I bought a few other items from the store at the same time and used Laser to pay.
On Christmas day the kid tried the toy and it wouldnt work properly.
I live about 2 hours away & seeing as theres one of the retail chains stores near their home I let his parents being it back to see if they could exchange for a working one or get something else for their kid.
Just got a call saying they tried doing that and the store are being awkward as they have no receipt. I think it may be in the recycle bin by now but am still looking for it...but I just looked at my bank statement online and the purchase is there with the name & location of the toy store, a 2 letter 4 digit reference number, the date, and the total amount paid that day.
I checked my consumer rights and they say any proof of purchase is a receipt. My query is seeing as I bought a few other things at the same time is there any way of getting a statement to seperate out the individual goods bought, so as to show the one item I am trying to prove I bought there?
They also say they have to have a receipt for any goods over 50euro...
Anyway, any help on what I can do to get them to refund/exchange would be great, thanks!
The store has every right to insist on proof of purchase. That doesn't affect your consumer rights. I'm sure if you looked on the National Consumer website it states that you should always hold onto receipts, faulty or not. The item in question is a toy and as such could have been purchased in any number of retailers so before the shop can act to rectify the situation, the responsibility is on the customer to prove that they purchased it there.
A statement should be fine for proof of purchase. The bank can't break down the credit card receipt but the store should be able to source it when provided with the details, ie date, time and total amount.
I don't know where the €50 receipt transaction thing was pulled from, it's not consumer law, it may be a specific store policy but it's nothing to do with returning a faulty item. Most stores and chains insist on a receipt for a return of any item at any price.0 -
How is it satisfactory proof of purchase? It's proof that this person spent €X in that store, that's all. What most shops can do is using the statement for a date and the customer's information for a rough time of day, look up a transaction, though this may not be doable on site and may have to be done through a head office facility. Until that there's no onus on the store to do a single thing and they are hardly being "awkward" by adhering to what they are entitled to.
The store can cross check the transaction against what was scanned in on their systems. Happened me once in argos when returning a ps3.0 -
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This is an extract from Irish Law simplified by the National Comsumer Agency, its taken from their website. "The shop is entitled to request proof of purchase, but this doesn't necessarily have to be the shop receipt. You could show your credit or debit card statement if you used one or any other documentation that proves it was purchased in that particular shop or retail chain"
Under Irish Law a Laser card statment is proof of purchace no retailer can dispute this. Bring in a printed laser card statment and if its not accepted write a letter to the company quoting the exact law, i can find a link if you need it and threaten that you will take it to the small claims court.
This is from citizensinformation.ie it might help also
If things go wrong
If you have a problem with an item that you have bought it is always the seller who should put things right. As a general rule, the seller can either repair or replace the item. Alternatively, they can refund the costs of the item or service to the consumer.
If you are not satisfied with the quality of goods or services you can:
•Return the goods to the supplier who sold it to you (you should not return the goods to the manufacturer)
•Act as soon as you can – a delay can indicate that you have accepted faulty goods or services
•Do not attempt to repair the item yourself or give it to anyone else to repair it
•Make sure that you have a proof of purchase (a receipt, cheque stub, credit card statement or invoice)0 -
therealgirl wrote: »I live about 2 hours away & seeing as theres one of the retail chains stores near their home I let his parents being it back to see if they could exchange for a working one or get something else for their kid.
I checked my consumer rights and they say any proof of purchase is a receipt. My query is seeing as I bought a few other things at the same time is there any way of getting a statement to seperate out the individual goods bought, so as to show the one item I am trying to prove I bought there?
You bank statment is proof of purchase, it is the retailers responsibility to know what items were purchased in that transaction. Only the retail outlet you purchased from is responsible though no other outlet has to deal with you at all.0 -
Before anyone jumps on the bandwagon and blames the store - the OP's parent went in without receipt, without bank statement to a branch where the item was not purchased.
Sorry, but that's looking for a little too much.
The bank statement should be fine and the OP doesn;t seem to have tried this yet.
One option if you ae far away from parents is to go to the store it was purchased, show manager the bank statement, explain that the toy is 80 miles away and that ideally you would like your parents to call to local store and get the item replaced.
If its approached the right way and asked for nicely, I can't see any problem in this being allowed.0 -
so people who didn't buy the item, in a store it wasn't purchased in, without any proof of purchase are having trouble returning said item. . .and the title of the thread actually reads "store being awkward" :rolleyes:
technically speaking, the contract of sale is between the original store and yourself, OP, although for the sake of customer relations i'm sure the company will overlook this if you provide the parents with a valid POP.
now the other main obstacle i can envisage is that if a bank/cc statement is your POP, only the original store of purchase will be able to provide an itemised breakdown of what was bought that day - from experience this feature of epos systems tends to be localised to each individual store. so, if i'm correct (could be wrong), without the actual receipt of sale the toy will only be able to be exchanged by the original store0 -
Thanks for all the responses...
I am aware its asking alot seeing as the toy was not purchased in my county & is trying to be returned in another county...but this is something I have done before with return/exchange of goods in numerous large retail chains, so seeing as I wont see the kids parents for another week I left it to them to try go to their local store to see what could be done.
The retail assistant at their store insisted unless you have a store receipt then there is no other proof of purchase accepted...When the kids mom rang me to see if I had the receipt I looked everywhere for it & then remembered I used Laser to pay & was more than sure that was proof of purchase enough. So I looked up my bank statement online & saw the details of the total amount spent that day...but thats what I am wondering...the total amount is 110 and the faulty toy in question was around 50...now I can recall every other toy I purchased on that day, but I want to know how I go about getting a breakdown of that 110 into the individual amounts that make it up.
I have arranged for a friend to meet me before this weekend, she will transport the faulty toy to me so I can go to the store I bought it in here...but I want to see if I can go about getting a breakdown of that Laser payment before this weekend so I have everything in order before going to the store.
And unfortunately I don't remember the retail assistant who was at the till at the time of purchase...it was a while before Christmas but the place was jammers & I doubt she remembers me either!
I'll ring the bank tomorrow morn0 -
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You do not need to get a breakdown on that laser transaction. As long as you have a bank statement showing that transaction, you are covered from a consumer perspective.
In this case, it is probably best to return to the original store so that they can trace the transaction in their cash system (the reason I say this, as opposed to returning to any Tesco for instance, is that the toy store is possibly franchised and the cash systems are possibly separate in each store.)
But to reiterate, as long as you have record of the laser transaction, you are covered. (There is no point in ringing the bank to get a breakdown a they don't have that information, they only process a total amount)0 -
In work, we would take a bank statement as proof of purchase. The details are taken into the office and someone will check through all the sales for that amount on that day.
If there is no record of the faulty product being sold on that day then the company won't take it back. As CC and laser transactions can take a few days to arrive on a bank statement, we often have to search through a few days transactions.
It annoys customers because it takes ages to search through maybe thousands of transaction or that amount, but if the original receipt cant be found, the company dont refund etc.
I hope you get a resolution OP.0 -
How is it satisfactory proof of purchase? It's proof that this person spent €X in that store, that's all. What most shops can do is using the statement for a date and the customer's information for a rough time of day, look up a transaction, though this may not be doable on site and may have to be done through a head office facility. Until that there's no onus on the store to do a single thing and they are hardly being "awkward" by adhering to what they are entitled to.
What's the point in posting if you don't know what your posting about? This is not a matter of opinion, it is the law. The legislation says "proof of purchase" a statement is proof of purchase. The onus is most definitely on the store.0 -
Methinks you need a mirror.What's the point in posting if you don't know what your posting about?
A bank statement is not proof of purchasing a particular item. It indicates that a purchase was made. OP reports that the payment was for a number of items, so the amount recorded on the bank statement will not accord with the price of the faulty toy.This is not a matter of opinion, it is the law. The legislation says "proof of purchase" a statement is proof of purchase. The onus is most definitely on the store.
Many shops can start with the value of the transaction and the date, and find the details. It's a bit of trouble for them, and some may choose to take the customer's word, backed up by the Laser record. That's particularly likely if the person is known in the shop as a regular customer in good standing.0 -
P. Breathnach wrote: »A bank statement is not proof of purchasing a particular item. It indicates that a purchase was made. OP reports that the payment was for a number of items, so the amount recorded on the bank statement will not accord with the price of the faulty toy.
Many shops can start with the value of the transaction and the date, and find the details. It's a bit of trouble for them, and some may choose to take the customer's word, backed up by the Laser record. That's particularly likely if the person is known in the shop as a regular customer in good standing.
You don't seem to get this, under Irish law it is accepted as proof of purchase for whatever particular item the customer says it is. If the shop wants to dispute this it would be the shops responisbility to prove that the item was not purchased in that transaction.
The default stance is that if the customer has proof of a purchase and there are no other records it is accepted that it is proof of the transaction the customer claims it was.
If I went into a shop with an item that I did not purchase in that shop and a bank statment that had a transaction in that shop if the shop decided to dispute it is would be up to the shop to have a record of what was in that transaction proving that the item I have wasn't purchased there. If they have no proof that says otherwise the bank statment must be accepted as proof. That is the law.0 -
You don't seem to get this, under Irish law it is accepted as proof of purchase for whatever particular item the customer says it is. If the shop wants to dispute this it would be the shops responisbility to prove that the item was not purchased in that transaction. ...
I am well aware that some agencies say that a bank or credit card statement can serve as proof of purchase; some even say that a cheque stub will suffice. I do not believe that they have any basis in legislation or in case law for taking that position (especially the cheque stub, which is so easily tampered with). I would be very interested if anybody could show me if I am wrong about that aspect of Irish law.
The burden of proof lies with the person making a claim. I am quite happy to accept that a bank or credit card statement has evidential value, meaning that it would be helpful to a claimant if the dispute went to court. What I do not accept is that it is conclusive proof in the way, and to the extent, that a receipt would be.0 -
Hi P.Breathnach,
I have a link here to the National Consumer Agency website that someone sent me...at the very bottom of the page it says something about different ways of proving receipt...I think this may answer your question on whether its the law or not (I didnt know this either until I was sent the link!)
http://www.nca.ie/nca/faultygoods
Its right that I cant get a breakdown of the transaction that took place on the day, and also the statement shows the transaction as taking place two days after the purchase...I think this is the norm with Laser statements, weekend transactions don't show up until the next working day.
So I will ask the store to see what they can do from their end regarding the breakdown of the transaction (as they are perfectly entitled to do) if they require more proof than just my statement.
Thanks everyone, I will let know what the outcome is in case anyone ever has similar query, hopefully by this weekend0 -
I've worked in Laptop repairs and at times had to deal with customers complaints, basically thats the way we were told it was. Irish law always tends to go in favour of the consumer. We were told that unless a judge has reasonable doubt it would go in favour of the consumer. If you had a transaction in a computer shop and tried to say this was the laptop you bought there, the judge would accept it, but if you tried to say you bought bread in the computer shop the just would says its not reasonable and he wouldnt accept the claim. We were told that we were responsible for keeping records, all our invoice numbers went on reciepts and reciept numbers went on the invoices. I'm not sure if we legaly had to do it.
I can't find the exact wording of the law but I have seen it before. As far as I know it doesn't speficy if the ammounts differ. It does however definately state that a bank statment is proof of purchace. It doesn't say, a bank statment is only proof if the ammounts are the same. From my understanding its accepted like that, a bank statment is proof and thats just the end of it.
You would think all the proof lies with the claimant, but I remember one time we fixed the power jack on a laptop, it came back a few weeks later with the customer saying its not working again, but there was clearly more damage done it must have been droped or something. I didnt hear anything about it for ages and then the owner told me one day that it had gone to court the person got away with it and the shop had to pay the money that the customer paid to have it repaired again elsewhere. I guess not every law or ruling is perfect and it just has to be taken as its written.0 -
What's the point in posting if you don't know what your posting about? This is not a matter of opinion, it is the law. The legislation says "proof of purchase" a statement is proof of purchase. The onus is most definitely on the store.
Where did I say it was a matter of opinion?
Simple point I'm trying to make is that a bank statement proves that a product was bought in the store, not the product. For example, a person buys an X Box game, most new ones are €49.99. They then come back into the store a few days later with a bank statement for €49.99 and a different game and tell me they want a refund. So.........I wind up refunding them for a game they didn't buy from me. The only solution is, as I said, to look up the transaction if this is possible.0 -
Where did I say it was a matter of opinion?
Simple point I'm trying to make is that a bank statement proves that a product was bought in the store, not the product. For example, a person buys an X Box game, most new ones are €49.99. They then come back into the store a few days later with a bank statement for €49.99 and a different game and tell me they want a refund. So.........I wind up refunding them for a game they didn't buy from me. The only solution is, as I said, to look up the transaction if this is possible.
The point I have tried to make several times is that maybe in real life a bank statment does not spefically prove which item was purchased, in practice any two items could be the same price but it is the law in Ireland that a bank statment does prove that you purchased the speific item you say it does unless the judge can be given a substantial reason to believe otherwise.
If I buy game a in shop A and game b in shop B and I decide to return game b to shop a with a bank statment showing game a being purchased in shop A. Irish law says that the statment showing game a in shop A proves that I bought game b in shop A unless shop A can provide evidence to say I did not purchase game b in their shop. This is to protect consumers and all shops know they need to keep records anyway.
I don't see why all this is needed the OP is just trying to return a toy.0 -
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AFAIK its treated like a civil matter where the judge is responsible to decide which is more believable. A check stub would be taken as evidence, but a retailer could then produce their accounts showing that cheque was not lodged into their account, or in reverse the customer could show that the cheque was lodged and the money was taken from their account. Its basically whatever information trumps the rest if a bank statment is the only evidence bank statment wins, if the shop has records that disagree with the statment the records win, etc.0
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P. Breathnach wrote: »Methinks you need a mirror.
A bank statement is not proof of purchasing a particular item. It indicates that a purchase was made. OP reports that the payment was for a number of items, so the amount recorded on the bank statement will not accord with the price of the faulty toy.
Many shops can start with the value of the transaction and the date, and find the details. It's a bit of trouble for them, and some may choose to take the customer's word, backed up by the Laser record. That's particularly likely if the person is known in the shop as a regular customer in good standing.
From The National Consumer Agency concerning what is proof of purchase "You could show your credit or debit card statement if you used one or any other documentation that proves it was purchased in that particular shop or retail chain"
ANY shops will be able to go back to the transaction and find the item, if they can't then their till systems are not good enough for tax purposes.
A statement shows that a transaction took place (proving the purchase), the retailer should have records sufficiant to break out the transaction, if the retailer can't do that, they'll have big problems with the Revenue Commissioners at some point.
In case any of the above is too complicated, I'll make it simple
Bank statement = proof of purchase
Suggesting that it is not, or suggesting that it is legally weaker than a receipt is misinformation and does a disservice to people reading this thread.0 -
I am challenging what the NCA says, so quoting them is hardly an adequate response. I want to know the basis on which they give that advice.From The National Consumer Agency concerning what is proof of purchase "You could show your credit or debit card statement if you used one or any other documentation that proves it was purchased in that particular shop or retail chain"
That's not the case. A business does not require a recording till system to keep the Revenue happy.ANY shops will be able to go back to the transaction and find the item, if they can't then their till systems are not good enough for tax purposes.
A statement shows that a transaction took place (proving the purchase), the retailer should have records sufficiant to break out the transaction, if the retailer can't do that, they'll have big problems with the Revenue Commissioners at some point.
All that a bank (or credit card) statement can prove is that a payment was made. It does not say why the payment was made.In case any of the above is too complicated, I'll make it simple
Bank statement = proof of purchase
Suggesting that it is not, or suggesting that it is legally weaker than a receipt is misinformation and does a disservice to people reading this thread.
I have acknowledged that a record of a payment has evidential value; I have recognised that most retailers, given the date and amount of the transaction, can extract the details of the transaction from their records; I have pointed out that in many circumstances a retailer will accept a record of a payment as being enough to get them to accept responsibility.
What I am challenging is the position taken is that it is "the law", or that it is conclusive proof. I would like to be shown a basis for such claims in either statute law or case law.
Imagine this scenario:
Chancer enters retail outlet asking that his faulty television be sorted for him. He shows a Laser payment record as "proof of purchase". Retailer repudiates the claim on the grounds that Chancer did not buy the television there. Off they go to Small Claims Court. Will Chancer win? If the Laser record is to be regarded as proof of purchase, it would be a walkover. But what if the core of the the retailer's case is that his is a menswear shop, and does not deal in televisions?
That's why I hold that proof of payment has evidential value, but is not as strong as a receipt as proof of purchase.0 -
P. Breathnach wrote: »What I am challenging is the position taken is that it is "the law", or that it is conclusive proof. I would like to be shown a basis for such claims in either statute law or case law.
Imagine this scenario:
Chancer enters retail outlet asking that his faulty television be sorted for him. He shows a Laser payment record as "proof of purchase". Retailer repudiates the claim on the grounds that Chancer did not buy the television there. Off they go to Small Claims Court. Will Chancer win? If the Laser record is to be regarded as proof of purchase, it would be a walkover. But what if the core of the the retailer's case is that his is a menswear shop, and does not deal in televisions?
That's why I hold that proof of payment has evidential value, but is not as strong as a receipt as proof of purchase.
There is obviously a need for common sense, your example is extreme. Statute leaves it up to the courts to make a determination on the balance of probabilities. Consumer matters like the one mentioned here would probably not end up in the High Court, therefore there is unlikely to be legal precedent, just courts rules. I doubt that the consumer agency, the Citizens Information people, et al, would give misleading information and I have yet to hear of a retailer being found in the right where a person did purchase something faulty and then used a statement as proof of purchase.
I'm bored, I'm not here for a debate, so I'm out. I'll leave you with a question. On the balance of probabilities, if the OP produced a bank statement showing the transaction, would it be accepted as proof of purchase by the retailer and if not, would a court on the balance of probabilities take the side of the OP or the retailer?0 -
Suggest you print out the page on this link and bring it with you.
If the person you are dealing with will not help - request to speak to their manager or someone in a position of authority.
Remember - stay calm and civil - a smiling face goes a long way when dealing with issues like this.
Linky: http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/consumer_protection/consumer_rights/consumers_and_the_law_in_ireland.html0 -
Where did I say it was a matter of opinion?
Simple point I'm trying to make is that a bank statement proves that a product was bought in the store, not the product. For example, a person buys an X Box game, most new ones are €49.99. They then come back into the store a few days later with a bank statement for €49.99 and a different game and tell me they want a refund. So.........I wind up refunding them for a game they didn't buy from me. The only solution is, as I said, to look up the transaction if this is possible.
You may not have said it was a matter of opinion but you would have been correct if you did. It is the opinion of the NCA or whoever compiles the information for citizensinformation.ie.
Some people don't seem to understand that the law is rarely so specific as to what terms such as "proof of purchase" actually mean, even whether such term is used in the law. The OP now seems to be following the most appropriate course of action.0 -
I'm here because I am interested in consumer issues, and I hope to be able to help people a bit. It sometimes arises that people here are badly wrong in the advice they give, and it sometimes happens that they they are imprecise. If a matter goes to court, imprecision can lead to a bad experience. That's why I am interested in teasing things out....I'm bored, I'm not here for a debate, so I'm out.
That's two questions! Yes, in a slightly nuanced way, to both of them: retailers would generally accept a credit card or bank statement as sufficient evidence of purchase, and yes, a court would be likely to accept a claimant's word, supported by a bank or credit card statement. That's why I say these things have evidential value.I'll leave you with a question. On the balance of probabilities, if the OP produced a bank statement showing the transaction, would it be accepted as proof of purchase by the retailer and if not, would a court on the balance of probabilities take the side of the OP or the retailer?
The reason why I am being a bit picky, and gave a scenario that you thought was extreme, is that I am aware that there are chancers out there as well as consumers with genuine grievances, and I want us to see all sides of issues.
[No, I don't think OP is a chancer!]0 -
Just wanted to post on how things worked out, just in case anyone else ever has a similar query!
The toy was brought into the store again along with my laser details that I got from my bank statement. (the store in their local area not the one I bought it from).
They got to speak with a manager this time & he accepted the laser details as receipt & gave a credit note in return as he had not got the same toy in stock to replace the faulty one.
Thanks to everyone for their advice, I was totally unaware of any consumer/retail rights before this!0
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