Really in need of advice

DBB

Shazanne wrote: »

I have spent most of the day so far speaking to behaviourists about Max and I am confused and still very upset.
None of those I have spoken to can reassure me that Max will not bite again with one saying that the fact he has bitten my husband may mean he will now feel he can continue to domineer him. She said that the problem is extremely difficult to address when a dog has bitten the face/neck of a human and that behaviourists in general are reluctant to treat dogs who have done this as they cannot be sure that they are not putting people at risk.
Another behaviourist said that she would teach Max to "learn to enjoy wearing a muzzle" - this really upset me.

I'm not surprised you're confused!
To clarify one thing, no behaviourist can guarantee a dog won't bite again. It would be naive and foolish to give this sort of advice for ANY dog.
However, it is the behaviourist's job first to assess how treatable the problem behaviour is, and to give the owner realistic ideas of how far the treatment can bring them. This, however, is not an excuse not to treat a dog at all.

Now, I feel the need to defence behaviourists, and by "behaviourists", I mean poeple who are genuinely qualified and experienced enough to claim entitlement to that title.
Animal behaviour is a science, it is just as complex as any branch of human psychological or behavioural sciences. A number of people in Ireland have busted their butts and bank balances to achieve the required level of academic qualification and experience so that, when the title of "behaviourist" becomes protected in the future, they are already in a position to assume the title. The titles of vet, and medical doctor etc are protected: it is illegal for someone who is not qualified to use them. The title of "animal behaviourist" is going that direction too.
However, as it stands right now, any eejit can set themselves up as a behaviourist. Many such people have been training dogs for 100 years, have won obedience competitions, or have owned dogs since they were in the womb. But, in the absence of academic qualification, I'm afraid this does not a dog behaviourist make.
People who advocate dominance theory, pack theory, rank reversal etc as training methods are showing themselves up: they are not qualified. These theories have been disproven, and are consequently outdated. Had these "behaviourists" gone to the trouble of educating themselves properly, they'd know this, and would not be advocating it any more. In other words, when a "behaviourist" tells you your dog is trying to dominate you, you know you're not actually talking to a person who meets the standard that's going to be required to use the title of "behaviourist". They have not educated themselves, they have not upskilled, and they are not keeping their education up to date. Quite frankly, they owe their clients more than that.

Shazanne
All have said that he fact that he is a rescue with no known history makes any form of behavioural therapy extremely difficult and less likely to succeed.

Hmm. To some extent this is right. But, in fact, many owners of dogs they've owned since pups are no more enlightened as to the cause of their dog's behavioural problems than the owner of a rescued dog is.
A good behaviourist will be able to give a good educated guess as to the origins of aggressive or fearful behaviours, but the reality is that it's not the past the behaviourist has to deal with. It's the present. It's the present behaviours which are quantifiable and these are what the behaviourist and owner will be trying to modify and manage.
So, whilst it's interesting to know the past, it's the present and future that are important.

Shazanne
But he obviously has psychological issues that I did not know about and they are, according to the experts I have spoken to, getting much worse.

I don't think anyone should have said this to you based on a phone conversation, with all due respect.

Shazanne
My vet had already pointed out that there are many people masquerading as behaviourists with very basic qualifications so I did check them out on apdt.ie to see if they are registered there.

And did you find any of the people who advocated dominance, muzzling, or not dealing with crossbred dogs from APDT Ireland? I seriously hope not, because members of this group are not only well qualified, they are not supporters of any of the above approaches or attitudes. Moreover, as a general rule they're highly supportive of people with rescue dogs!
Please clarify this, I think it's important as your post suggests the poor advice you got came from APDT Ireland members, when it's unlikely it did. I hope:(

Shazanne wrote: »

The fact that he has these problems is most likely not entirely his fault - but the fact that he is is not a purebred or pedigree dog most certainly isn't. If trainers/behaviourists want to only treat and help purebred dogs they should state that on their websites.

I am utterly at a loss as to why any behaviourist or trainer, good or bad, would say this to you!:(

Vince32 wrote: »

There is nothing that can't be fixed when it comes to dogs, anyone who won't work with your dog is concerned about liability and basically covering their backside.

This is simply not true, There are dogs that can't be fixed and it is naive to say otherwise.
Whilst some of the people Shazanne spoke to may have tried to wash their hands, it is a duty of a good behaviourist not to give owners misleading information or false hope: indeed, it is written into the code of conduct of all good umbrella organisations. Whilst you might call this ass-covering, I call it responsible and right to give owners realistic expectations.
As an aside, owners should not be afraid to ask behaviourists and trainers what level of liability cover they have.

Vince32
It will take anything from 1-2 days to 1-2 weeks for the message to sink in,

:eek: This is a tad optimistic IMO.

Vince32
It's never bad to be around other dogs either, just control the encounter, they will start sniffing the nose first, then move around to the genitals (where the scent is), if either of the dogs gets snarly or defensive, firm no, and walk away as if the other dog wasn't even there, tug on the leash if you have too, but remain calm and walk at a steady pace, eyes up, shoulders down.

In fact, face-to-face greetings are more often seen in inexperienced dogs, as they can be a little risky.
I wish treating dog to dog aggression was as easy as the human assuming a certain body posture. That sort of thing only seems to "work" on heavily edited TV programs:rolleyes:

Vince32
Socialise the dog in training classes, and ask the trainer for help with "guarding", it will all come right for you if you put the time in, and always have a result for bad behaviour.

A training class is not the place to deal with aggression or guarding.

Vince32
Your last resort will be re-homing the dog, but I doubt very much it will come to that.

You can't say that at this remove.

DBB

Maudi wrote: »

...

Post reported

Cherry Blossom

Maudi wrote: »

...

Banned, and if I find out you are who I think you are using a different account, you'll be perma-banned from A&PI

jinxycat

I've sent you a pm OP I hope it's of help!!!

Shazanne

DBB wrote: »

I'm not surprised you're confused!
To clarify one thing, no behaviourist can guarantee a dog won't bite again. It would be naive and foolish to give this sort of advice for ANY dog.
However, it is the behaviourist's job first to assess how treatable the problem behaviour is, and to give the owner realistic ideas of how far the treatment can bring them. This, however, is not an excuse not to treat a dog at all.

Now, I feel the need to defence behaviourists, and by "behaviourists", I mean poeple who are genuinely qualified and experienced enough to claim entitlement to that title.
Animal behaviour is a science, it is just as complex as any branch of human psychological or behavioural sciences. A number of people in Ireland have busted their butts and bank balances to achieve the required level of academic qualification and experience so that, when the title of "behaviourist" becomes protected in the future, they are already in a position to assume the title. The titles of vet, and medical doctor etc are protected: it is illegal for someone who is not qualified to use them. The title of "animal behaviourist" is going that direction too.
However, as it stands right now, any eejit can set themselves up as a behaviourist. Many such people have been training dogs for 100 years, have won obedience competitions, or have owned dogs since they were in the womb. But, in the absence of academic qualification, I'm afraid this does not a dog behaviourist make.
People who advocate dominance theory, pack theory, rank reversal etc as training methods are showing themselves up: they are not qualified. These theories have been disproven, and are consequently outdated. Had these "behaviourists" gone to the trouble of educating themselves properly, they'd know this, and would not be advocating it any more. In other words, when a "behaviourist" tells you your dog is trying to dominate you, you know you're not actually talking to a person who meets the standard that's going to be required to use the title of "behaviourist". They have not educated themselves, they have not upskilled, and they are not keeping their education up to date. Quite frankly, they owe their clients more than that.



Hmm. To some extent this is right. But, in fact, many owners of dogs they've owned since pups are no more enlightened as to the cause of their dog's behavioural problems than the owner of a rescued dog is.
A good behaviourist will be able to give a good educated guess as to the origins of aggressive or fearful behaviours, but the reality is that it's not the past the behaviourist has to deal with. It's the present. It's the present behaviours which are quantifiable and these are what the behaviourist and owner will be trying to modify and manage.
So, whilst it's interesting to know the past, it's the present and future that are important.



I don't think anyone should have said this to you based on a phone conversation, with all due respect.



And did you find any of the people who advocated dominance, muzzling, or not dealing with crossbred dogs from APDT Ireland? I seriously hope not, because members of this group are not only well qualified, they are not supporters of any of the above approaches or attitudes. Moreover, as a general rule they're highly supportive of people with rescue dogs!
Please clarify this, I think it's important as your post suggests the poor advice you got came from APDT Ireland members, when it's unlikely it did. I hope:(



I am utterly at a loss as to why any behaviourist or trainer, good or bad, would say this to you!:(




This is simply not true, There are dogs that can't be fixed and it is naive to say otherwise.
Whilst some of the people Shazanne spoke to may have tried to wash their hands, it is a duty of a good behaviourist not to give owners misleading information or false hope: indeed, it is written into the code of conduct of all good umbrella organisations. Whilst you might call this ass-covering, I call it responsible and right to give owners realistic expectations.
As an aside, owners should not be afraid to ask behaviourists and trainers what level of liability cover they have.



:eek: This is a tad optimistic IMO.




In fact, face-to-face greetings are more often seen in inexperienced dogs, as they can be a little risky.
I wish treating dog to dog aggression was as easy as the human assuming a certain body posture. That sort of thing only seems to "work" on heavily edited TV programs:rolleyes:



A training class is not the place to deal with aggression or guarding.




You can't say that at this remove.

Hi DBB,
I cannot even begin to thank you for the amount of help and advice you have given me.
I wish I could use this post in the way you have replied to me, by highlight the points I want to answer, but I can't seem to get the hang of that!
Anyway, the main things I want to address is that I contacted several behaviourists today to get opinions and to to see what options I may have. Most of them came from the ADPT list you mentioned, but not all. I would by lying to you to say that it was the registered ones who gave me the advice that you find alarming, but I know for certain that one of them was.
The comment about Max not being to blame for being a cross breed was not stated by a behaviourist - that was my own comment. But I most certainly did get the impression from more than one of those I spoke to that because he is not a "valuable" dog, he is not as worthy of help. That was the impression I got and my instincts in this regard are generally pretty good.
Myself and my husband have talked for hours about this whole situation tonight. And our decision is to try and get Max the help he needs and give him the chance he deserves. Obviously, he will need to be fully assessed and I will take the advice of the behaviourist on board in this regard.
In fact, we have also decided that Millie will be fully trained along with Max, which I feel may harmonise their relationship as well.
I apologise if some of this message and perhaps earlier ones are not fully explanatory but I have been talking and writing about this all day and my brain is frazzled at this stage.
But I am going to bed tonight full of determination to help both my dogs all the help I can and to commit to doing all I can as an owner to help them as well. And I have my husband's 100% support on this. However, if Max were to bite again I think I would have great difficulty in getting the same level of support a second time.
But, for the first time since this happened, I am feeling more positive. And I hope and pray that both Max and Millie are on the road to becoming more balanced, more sociable and, at the risk of sounding overly optimistic, more trustworthy.
Thank you so much again.

kylith

Op, I too have a dog who had bitten someone on the face. As with your dog it so happened that the face was simply the closest body part to the dog, so that was what she lunged for when she felt threatened.

It does sound to me like your dog is resource guarding you. If I were you the first things I would do is not allow the dog on the bed or on the sofa. Have your OH feed him so that OH becomes more valuable to the dog, and get in touch with a non dominance-based trainer.

Shazanne

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Banned, and if I find out you are who I think you are using a different account, you'll be perma-banned from A&PI

AJ, I didn;t see that post thank God, but I feel you may - through your diligence as a moderator - have spared me from something upsetting. If I am right about this, I thank you very much.

LucyBliss

Major kudos to you, Shazanne and to your husband, for doing all this research and soul searching. Max is clearly in a good home with people unwilling to give up on him at the first major hurdle. I'm sorry I'm not in a position to offer any practical support, but I'm cheering you on here and I wish you and Max every success!

Brianne

Shazanne,
I really feel sorry for you and totally understand your predicament as I have a very similar dog. My dog was born here with us, her mother a dog that wandered in hungry and in bad shape and went into pup before we had a chance to get her spayed. My dog is now 9 and we have to keep her in a large run at the back of our home all the time as she cannot be trusted with people. I can only bring her for walks out through the fields as I do not want to meet anybody while shes with me.
In the past she has snapped at a couple of people, just short ago a friend of mine went out to see my garden with me and the dog went straight for her leg which I was'nt expecting as I was with my friend at the time.
In the night time when shes in her box in her house if I went to put my hand down to rub her she would growl at me. I know her strange ways so I ignore them. The vet said many years ago that its something in her genes.
Sometimes I put a muzzle on her and she does'nt like it atall but I know she would get used to it eventually if needs be. I have a grandchild who regularly visits and I have to be extra careful from now on. Would you try a muzzle and see how it goes on your dog. I know its not the nicest but having to put the dog down is a lot worse and there is no way anybody will take a dog of that temperament. I also have to keep her away from my other dogs as she would go for them if she got free. Her mother is old and still living and they get on grand together except when it comes to feeding and the poor mothers food would be gone like a shot if I did'nt stay with her.
Again I really hope things will work out well for you because when you love a dog, no matter how ill mannered and contrary they are its very hard to part with them.

Shazanne

Yesterday was thinking day and today was action day!
After all my research yesterday I found a wonderful behaviourist and trainer who has listened to every thing we had to say about Max (and Millie too!) and we have been 100% honest with her.

So, the first thing we did today was collect Max from the vets:) When I explained our plan to my vet he was happy that we were doing something about the problem and no just coming home to try and handle it ourselves.

I have taken Max to the behaviourist, who will assess him over the next couple of days. She feels it necessary to do this as it is not something that can be done in a session of just a couple of hours. I am to contact her on Tuesday morning and, all going well with Max, we will be starting a full behaviour and training programme with both Millie and Max - and ourselves of course, as that is where I believe the problem truly lies.

I have learned a very valuable lesson through all of this. Despite the fact that I have had pets (dogs and cats) all my life, I have never had problems of this nature before. I think I may have felt I "knew it all" - but I really know very little and need to learn a great deal. I am inclined to "humanise" my pets and treat them like children. I have now learned that I am not doing them any favours at all by doing this. In fact, I am being unkind to them by not allowing them to be what they truly are, which is a dog. I have been sending out all the wrong signals and even the wrong ones I have been sending out are not consistent.
So I need to learn from scratch and I am prepared to try my best to do this. I know it will be difficult and I will have to put alot of effort into it and I hope I am strong enough to do that. But, for Max's sake, I am willing to try.
When I looked at him today and realised how close he had come to never coming back to the "Forever Home" I had promised him, it shook me to the core. Because I really believe that that was my fault by not investing the time it takes to train him properly.
I hope that Max responds to training and I hope it does not turn out to be the case that he has problems that cannot be addressed. But, from our part (mine and my husbands) it won't be for the want of trying.

Thank you to all who took the time to help and advise me over the past couple of days. This whole experience seemed like a nightmare at times but people on here have been so good, even when at times my posts must have sounded like the ramblings of an emotional wreck. I hope that my experiences can be of help to others and, if ever I feel I can help others on here, I will try my very best to do so.

paultf

Best of luck with it Shazanne - hope it all works out for you, your family & your dogs.

kissmybumper

Take a breather a lot has happened in a short space of time. Not anyone's fault it's the personality lick of the draw on both parts really. There is a lot of behavioural this and that I've read a lot myself, did training classes and am a qualified vet nurse. Don't let anyone decide for you.

Sometimes people study behaviour and learn a one or very few theories and stick with that one - which is fair enough you'd think it would be correct if being taught.

I think you would be passing on your responsinilty if you rehome which isn't fair on Max as I'm sure he's been through a lot - if you really think of them as your children you wouldn't just give one away.

It is scary but I am sure fixable, but until you've really tried to fix this don't be stressing about the big sleep or rehoming.

There are simple things like not giving eye contact and simply not letting him answer the door with you that can help but as part of a bigger programme.

I have a lecturer I stay in contact with when people come into my clinic - who is a dog whisperer - yes it sounds airy fairy but cases like yours have come and gone with a happy ending and I still see them.

Would you like her number? She has been doing it for years and only recently starting teaching animal training too I believe as she refused to teach theories she didn't believe in unlike many colleges and lecturers, she's in it for the dogs not the money which is refreshing.

toadfly

Best of luck with it, it's going to be hard work but I'm sure ye 4 are up to the challenge.

Cherry Blossom

Shazanne wrote: »

I have learned a very valuable lesson through all of this. Despite the fact that I have had pets (dogs and cats) all my life, I have never had problems of this nature before. I think I may have felt I "knew it all" - but I really know very little and need to learn a great deal.

I'm pretty sure we have all been there at some stage!

I am inclined to "humanise" my pets and treat them like children. I have now learned that I am not doing them any favours at all by doing this. In fact, I am being unkind to them by not allowing them to be what they truly are, which is a dog. I have been sending out all the wrong signals and even the wrong ones I have been sending out are not consistent.
So I need to learn from scratch and I am prepared to try my best to do this. I know it will be difficult and I will have to put alot of effort into it and I hope I am strong enough to do that. But, for Max's sake, I am willing to try.

On Friday I finally had a book arrive that had been on my wish-list for a long time - Canine Body Language by Brenda Aloff. It's a photographic guide of the subtle messages dogs give off with explanations as to what is being communicated with different combinations of these signals. It's all very interesting and even things I already knew are seen in a slightly different light when it's all spelled out in front of you. Dogs speak 'people' very well - much better than people speak dog!

When I looked at him today and realised how close he had come to never coming back to the "Forever Home" I had promised him, it shook me to the core. Because I really believe that that was my fault by not investing the time it takes to train him properly.
I hope that Max responds to training and I hope it does not turn out to be the case that he has problems that cannot be addressed. But, from our part (mine and my husbands) it won't be for the want of trying.

Remember that there will still be time and ways for you to interact with the dogs, perhaps just in a slightly different way. I'm as guilty as anyone for allowing my life to revolve around my pets perhaps a little too much but I do try my hardest to find my own 'inner dog' rather the dog's 'inner person', I'm not sure that's entirely best for my own mentality, but it is best for my dog!

I hope that Max responds to training and I hope it does not turn out to be the case that he has problems that cannot be addressed. But, from our part (mine and my husbands) it won't be for the want of trying.

Well I can assure you that plenty of people here have their fingers, toes and paws all crossed for you.

Inexile

Shazanne wrote: »

I have learned a very valuable lesson through all of this. Despite the fact that I have had pets (dogs and cats) all my life, I have never had problems of this nature before. I think I may have felt I "knew it all" - but I really know very little and need to learn a great deal. I am inclined to "humanise" my pets and treat them like children. I have now learned that I am not doing them any favours at all by doing this. In fact, I am being unkind to them by not allowing them to be what they truly are, which is a dog. I have been sending out all the wrong signals and even the wrong ones I have been sending out are not consistent.
So I need to learn from scratch and I am prepared to try my best to do this. I know it will be difficult and I will have to put alot of effort into it and I hope I am strong enough to do that. But, for Max's sake, I am willing to try.
When I looked at him today and realised how close he had come to never coming back to the "Forever Home" I had promised him, it shook me to the core. Because I really believe that that was my fault by not investing the time it takes to train him properly.
I hope that Max responds to training and I hope it does not turn out to be the case that he has problems that cannot be addressed. But, from our part (mine and my husbands) it won't be for the want of trying.
.

I have just finished reading this thread and Shazane I just want to say that I salute you.
You and your husband have had an awful experience, you very rationally and sensibly didnt go for the easy option and sought professional advice. By the sounds of it the advice given by "professionals " did little but to reinforce the negative aspect and with no help provided.

Many people would have at that stage said I have done all I can, there is nothing I can do to change this situation and given up on their dog.
Thankfully some posters here have been able to give some concrete advice on the "professional" advice and helped in your determination to find an alterantive route.

I also think its brilliant that you can state that despite your long time dealings with dogs you have made mistakes.

If I am reincarnated and come back as a dog can I come and live with you.:) Your home sounds perfect.

Good luck with the training and please provide an update. I would really like to know how you and Max, of course, get on.

ABajaninCork

Oh - I've been following this, but didn't comment as I didn't feel able to give advice.

But - I am so glad you've been able to find someone who might be able to help. I'm rooting for you all the way!

Team MAX!!

Brianne

Good luck with everything Shazanne. Yes please let us know how things go.

Shazanne

What a fantastic group of people you all are!! Thank you all from the bottom of my heart - and Max's too!!!

tk123

Well done Shazanne! I really felt for you the other night when you posted I'm glad you've decided to try and get help and work on the issues.

Dodd

It is good to see a thread go the right way here and no one attack the OP.

I will add that it might be a good idea to take notes of the training and stuff
you learn because you will need to keep this up long after the dog is ok.

Some people get their dog to be fine and then think ok well I can stop training now.

You need to keep it going.

Good on you for looking for help and fair play to your husband for giving the dog another chance.

Karona

Fair play Shazanne, I appluade you. There isn't many people who would go against their vets opinion but I am so glad you did. Best of luck to you, your husband, Max and Millie.

Zapperzy

Fair play and a pat on the back from me too. Hopefully this will be a happy ending, your on the right road anyways. All fingers and paws crossed here.

jinxycat

That's brilliant news, I'm delighted you were able to get the help you needed.

Wishing you all the best of luck.

Shazanne

You have no idea how grateful I am that I was not attacked!! I just could not have taken that mentally over the last couple of days. My head was all over the place and I could have either lashed back or gone into hiding and never come on here again!! I thin Adrenalinejunkie (the moderator) may have intercepted one nasty post and I am so grateful for that.

Not only will I be taking notes (lots of them!) but this behaviourist/trainer provides a training video as "homework" for the owner to become fully familiar with methods and command words used, but also gives the option of recording the owner working with their dog for future reference.
Plus, there is a boarding facility attached to the place and both dogs will be staying there for two weeks in March while we are away, so that will be a refresher course for them and an opportunity for the behaviourist to identify if we are not getting thing right.
I know that this will be, not only a long road, but also an unending one but, if my dogs become more balanced and feel more secure in themselves, then it will make for a happier and more rewarding life all round.

Dodd wrote: »

It is good to see a thread go the right way here and no one attack the OP.

I will add that it might be a good idea to take notes of the training and stuff
you learn because you will need to keep this up long after the dog is ok.

Some people get their dog to be fine and then think ok well I can stop training now.

You need to keep it going.

Good on you for looking for help and fair play to your husband for giving the dog another chance.

Cherry Blossom

Shazanne - go to bed

Shazanne

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Shazanne - go to bed

Yes AJ - just heading off now!!! Am a bit of an adrenalin - junkie myself at the moment! But the crash will come:o