How to avoid the "why aren't you baptizing" nonsense?

lazygal

Thanks for replies.

We are not baptizing so as much as I appreciate the comments on school enrollment and sacraments, they will not sway our decision in favour of a baptism. I posted more to get ideas on what to say when people ask "when is the Christening" and are then astounded when we tell them there will not be one.

wylo

Good argument.

@Wylo

Fair enough put aside the church issue as big as it is. Sooner or later your child will find out you don't believe in God (and the later that is, the longer you have lied to them).

I wont be long dont worry.

What lessons can they take from your actions? Fitting in is more important than being true to your beliefs?

I thing people who are too true to their beliefs are actually quite dangerous, if you question everything including your own beliefs then you can live a far more honest and genuine life.
Thats how I like to say I live my life, and thats probably the reason I stopped believing in God so early.
As for your question, I dont think its as big a deal as how you describe, because my "belief" isnt strong enough. That doesnt mean I believe in God by any means. It means I dont care about any of it.

Lying to people to make a few quid is ok?

I wont lie to people, but if theres an event on Ill join in. Lets cancel Christmas altogether.

Conformist and Conmanperson are not two traits I'd like to promote as a role model.
These are very possible non church related effects of baptising a child when it's for disingenuous reasons.

Fair enough, good points.

wylo

lazygal wrote: »

Thanks for replies.

We are not baptizing so as much as I appreciate the comments on school enrollment and sacraments, they will not sway our decision in favour of a baptism. I posted more to get ideas on what to say when people ask "when is the Christening" and are then astounded when we tell them there will not be one.

lol wrong forum!!! You should have posted in PI.:p

Dades

Yeah wylo, it is all about the church.

Remove the organised religion from a vague god concept and you have a meaningless gesture to an imaginary being. If only it were so innocent!

But to many here it's not a bitterness thing about childhoods lost or religious options removed. Instead it's a simple unwillingness to support what, to many, is an insideous organisation, rotten to the core. It's not about the local nuns and priests most of whom are pleasant old folk, it's about what the RC Organisation stands for, and how they go about it.

Bannasidhe

Newaglish wrote: »

And that, my friends, is why they baptise them as babies and brainwash them from the age of 3.

Exactly. I have a very precocious 5 1/2 year old grand-daughter (let's just say her nickname is Hermione and the arrival of an owl in about 5 years would come as no surprise whatsoever). Her father is an unbaptised atheist, I would classify myself as agnostic and her mother is 'born again' atheist (and just a tad fundamentalist about it). Her mother's family are observant Catholics, mine are á la carte.

So, having been recently exposed to the Irish primary school system this inquisitive, intelligent, questioning little girl has taken to quizzing people about their religious beliefs - her question is always the same: 'Do you believe in God?' You are then expected to explain why your answer is yes/no. Yet, from overhearing the various conversations the reactions she gets vary wildly. My son and myself tell her why we believe what we believe but point out she must make up her own mind. Her mother just says there is no God - no discussion. Maternal grandfather says there is a God - no discussion. My family just look shocked and try and fob her off. To say she is frustrated by this lack of debate is to put it mildly...she keeps asking. She is a like a dog with a bone.

She is very fortunate with her teacher who is willing to seriously discuss this issue with her - but I dread to think what will happen as she progresses through the school system.

Ironically - both 'Hermoine' and her younger brother were baptised, very much against their father's wishes (unmarried so legally he had no say and was told so in no uncertain terms ) at their mother's insistence. I would lay a bet on the fact that mother will also insist on Communion and Confirmation even as she claims to be atheist. Why? To keep her father happy...

Now, I take religion seriously and to me it is an insult to those who do have faith in a particular doctrine to have its rituals subverted by those who see them as an excuse for a party and a means to keeping in relatives good books.

We need to give children the information and allow them to decide for themselves. Baptism is someone else making the 'first' decision for them - we do not have the right to do that. If those who believe in the existence of an immortal soul are correct - how can they possibly justify anyone promising someone else's soul to a particular deity?

Mark Hamill

wylo wrote: »

No, because you dont see my argument, it renders your questions pointless and off topic. Read back on that post again properly.

Your "argument" is just a repeat of your previous notion hat baptism isn't bout the church, is about god. Now while this is both wrong (baptism is never just about god, hence the priest having to be present) and moot (even if it was just about god, it would be incredibly dishonest to baptise your kid to some god you dont believe in just to get money from your relatives), it does nothing to answer my questions, which have nothing to do with this "argument". Here they are again:
1)How exactly would not baptising your kid prevent it from choosing later on when whether it thinks catholicism is nonsense or not?
2)Why exactly did your family need permission from the catholic church to give you money? *
3)What options? Options to make money from later religious ceremonies?

*If you insist that its nothing to do with the church for you and your family, then take this question as "Why exactly did your family need you to do a meaningless ceremony to give you money?"

Penn

lazygal wrote: »

Thanks for replies.

We are not baptizing so as much as I appreciate the comments on school enrollment and sacraments, they will not sway our decision in favour of a baptism. I posted more to get ideas on what to say when people ask "when is the Christening" and are then astounded when we tell them there will not be one.

Fair enough.

There's nothing really you can say, they'll still have the same reaction. You're going outside what is perceived to be "the norm". Everyone just assumes you will be baptising the child. Sister had a child a few weeks ago and a few days later in town, I met a cousin of ours. First three questions:

How's (sister) and (baby) doing?
When are they getting home?
When's the christening?

You can explain it the simplest of terms, people still won't be able to get their head around it.

fred252

i wouldn't avoid it. people need to be confronted. you could give them the old dawkin's spiel about labelling children as catholic or muslim etc. being akin to a form of child abuse.

ShooterSF

wylo wrote: »

I thing people who are too true to their beliefs are actually quite dangerous, if you question everything including your own beliefs then you can live a far more honest and genuine life.
Thats how I like to say I live my life, and thats probably the reason I stopped believing in God so early.
As for your question, I dont think its as big a deal as how you describe, because my "belief" isnt strong enough. That doesnt mean I believe in God by any means. It means I dont care about any of it.

Just on this as I think I may have worded it poorly; all I mean is that one should be honest about what they believe and live life by what they believe. I don't mean don't constantly be questioning things you believe; it's only way to be "more right" for want of a better phrase.
I would never want a child to hide what they believe because it was a minority view is all.

Also in the post above mine re: "Hermione" (I'm curious where the made up name originates btw) I imagine most, nay I'm more certain of an agreement between all atheist posters on this forum than on any subject, as we rarely all agree, that the statement "God does not exist. End of" is an equally heinous comment to an inquisitive child as one that says he does exist or might exist without discussion. To blunt a child's curiosity for knowledge or to expect them to hold a point of view because it is yours rather than giving them reasons and letting them decide is tragic.
Youre lucky though, something tells me that kid is gonna be pretty clever if they keep that inquisitive nature.

OT: For someone with no desire to have kids I seem to be spending a lot of time discussing other people's!

ShooterSF

It's mod ass kissing time

lazygal wrote: »

Thanks for replies.

We are not baptizing so as much as I appreciate the comments on school enrollment and sacraments, they will not sway our decision in favour of a baptism. I posted more to get ideas on what to say when people ask "when is the Christening" and are then astounded when we tell them there will not be one.

You won't get better than this:

Dades wrote: »

Just say "Because we're not catholic".

If someone asks "But weren't you baptised..?"

Well then your work is done.

Dades

fred252 wrote: »

you could give them the old dawkin's spiel about labelling children as catholic or muslim etc. being akin to a form of child abuse.

For Odin's sake, don't mention Dawkins or child abuse. There are far less dramatic and divisive and far more sensible arguments to be made.

amacachi

Baptise them Protestant, free or cheap fees for fee-paying secondary schools, they can leave. :pac:

fred252

Dades wrote: »

For Odin's sake, don't mention Dawkins or child abuse. There are far less dramatic and divisive and far more sensible arguments to be made.

different strokes for different folks. i get a fair bit of abuse for my attitude in these matters but if it makes one person question their beliefs i think its worth it. either way i don't think avoidance is the way to go.

Ellis Dee

I was fortunate to be able to bring up my kids in a country where religion is very unobtrusive - the vast majority are Lutherans - the church has no influence on the excellent educational system and it is almost inconceivable that anyone outside the family would even mention religion.:)

I was a frequent visitor to Ireland during those years, with the kids, and later discovered that they had been secretly baptised - who knows how many times? - by some of my more devout relatives, who swallowed the kiddy-fiddler church's stupid doctrines hook, line and sinker. But I suppose that doesn't count, and the kids can't possibly have had any notion what was happening - and they remain atheists to this day.;)

Lutherans don't have a holy communion thing, so that was no problem when the kids were around seven.

The issue of religion didn't arise until the youngest was about 16 and all of his school pals went to a summer camp called Confirmation School. That meant being baptised into the Lutheran Church. :cool:

When I heard that this had happened, I was aghast and said to him: "Don't tell me you you've started believing all that religion sh1t!":eek:

He replied: "No, but I sure as hell believe in presents!";)

And so it came to pass that he got confirmed, much to the delight of his granddad, a conservative politician and businessman, and equally conservative granny, who bestowed lavish gifts upon him, as is the custom in Finland.

And after that, religion had served its ad hoc purpose and life returned to normal.:)

norrie rugger

ShooterSF wrote: »

Also in the post above mine re: "Hermione" (I'm curious where the made up name originates btw) I imagine most, nay I'm more certain of an agreement between all atheist posters on this forum than on any subject, as we rarely all agree, that the statement "God does not exist. End of" is an equally heinous comment to an inquisitive child as one that says he does exist or might exist without discussion. To blunt a child's curiosity for knowledge or to expect them to hold a point of view because it is yours rather than giving them reasons and letting them decide is tragic.
Youre lucky though, something tells me that kid is gonna be pretty clever if they keep that inquisitive nature.

Damn no. God does not exist is a perfectly valid statement. How is it a debatable subject?

"Does God exist?"
"No"
"Why are you sure?"
"There is no proof to support the idea of a god"
/conversation

Mark Hamill

fred252 wrote: »

different strokes for different folks. i get a fair bit of abuse for my attitude in these matters but if it makes one person question their beliefs i think its worth it. either way i don't think avoidance is the way to go.

While I wouldn't advocate avoidance either, that argument can very likely result in people just shutting down and killing the discussion.

If I had people constantly asking me when I was getting my kid baptised, I would say "right after I sign them up to fianna fail". If they dont respond in such a way that shows they even understand the point you are making, then its probably not worth your time and effort to explain your position to them.

ShooterSF

norrie rugger wrote: »

Damn no. God does not exist is a perfectly valid statement. How is it a debatable subject?

"Does God exist?"
"No"
"Why are you sure?"
"There is no proof to support the idea of a god"
/conversation

You have listed a reason "There is no proof to support the idea of a god". That's fine it gives a child something to evaluate rather than "there is no god.. end of" which says this is the conclusion I reached and that should be good enough for you. Why and how I reached it is irrelevant.
What you posted is infinitely better to a child.

Bannasidhe

ShooterSF wrote: »

Also in the post above mine re: "Hermione" (I'm curious where the made up name originates btw) I imagine most, nay I'm more certain of an agreement between all atheist posters on this forum than on any subject, as we rarely all agree, that the statement "God does not exist. End of" is an equally heinous comment to an inquisitive child as one that says he does exist or might exist without discussion. To blunt a child's curiosity for knowledge or to expect them to hold a point of view because it is yours rather than giving them reasons and letting them decide is tragic.
Youre lucky though, something tells me that kid is gonna be pretty clever if they keep that inquisitive nature.

re: the name - combine Hermoine Granger from Harry Potter with Sheldon Cooper from the Big Bang Theory - put the result in a 5 1/2 year old body and you have my grand-daughter. Scarily logical combined with a mania for conducting extensive research - 'lucky' is comparative - try being quizzed on the extinction of the dinosaurs when going to the loo as I was last Sunday!!

I agree absolutely that a child's question deserves to be answered to the best of one's ability. I have argued with my mother about this - asking her to treat the question seriously not dismiss the 'inquisitor' as 'she is only 5 and doesn't know what she is asking..'. She knows exactly what she is asking and she is interested in people's reasons for their individual beliefs. It's like a jigsaw puzzle she is gathering pieces for.

My suspicion is that those who refuse to answer do so because they cannot answer. The 'Atheist' mother still insisted on baptism despite her very vocal 'beliefs' - making me suspect much of her stance is an act of rebellion against her father's opus dei Catholicism. He considers any questioning to be heresy (he seriously does!) while my lot arn't sure what the hell they actually believe... when questioned on particular doctrines its amazing how often I end up saying things like 'you do know that's far more Lutheran then Catholic?'

wylo

Mark Hamill wrote: »

1)How exactly would not baptising your kid prevent it from choosing later on when whether it thinks catholicism is nonsense or not?

It wouldn't , if it sounded like I was saying that apologies, however, going by my own experience, I hold absolutely no bitterness or resentment towards my parents for baptizing me, as a matter of fact , I quite enjoyed my confirmation.
reason being I give such a little **** about what the process means that the only thing it did for me was made their life easier with schooling options and having with stuff like community/confirmation.

2)Why exactly did your family need permission from the catholic church to give you money? *
*If you insist that its nothing to do with the church for you and your family, then take this question as "Why exactly did your family need you to do a meaningless ceremony to give you money?"

They didn't. You seem to make it far more black and white than it is.
What DID happen was that there was an occasion , yea sure , it was based a catholic event.
Put it this way, I gave my nephew 20 euro for his communion. I do not give a crap that I don't believe in God or if he believes in God or not. I didn't need the church permission.
Now, IF my sister/his parents didnt baptize and he still wanted to a part of some celebration , yea sure, I would have given him 20euro anyway. I dont need church permission.
HOWEVER, that may well not have happened if he wasnt celebrating it. Ive seen other kids that just simply had no celebration because they werent baptized. Is that a horrible nasty thing? No ,but Im of the view, stop giving it so much respect.

3)What options? Options to make money from later religious ceremonies?

That, and schooling options yea.

Look, my point is that I care so little about the Church that it just really means nothing to me, it doesnt mean Im completely PRO baptism, it just means that I wouldnt feel bad about putting my child through a silly process. Just like I dont feel the need to revoke my baptism or do anything about it for that matter , because it quite literally means nothing to me.
And thats the basis behind my post which you wrote "yea thats all super".
Its my whole argument. I dont care. But Im also acknowledging now that people obviously seriously do care, and if you do care that much, well then dont baptize the bloody child!!

However, if God, and the Church means nothing to you, then really it doesnt matter.

wylo

I will admit though (cause I hate arguing for the sake of arguing or protecting my ego), that this thread has opened my mind to the fact that Ive been probably overestimating the value of a kids inclusion with communions/confirmations etc.

I dont have kids, but Im still putting myself in the "undecided" category with an open mind to baptism if it means im looking at a particular school or what not.

Bannasidhe

wylo wrote: »

I dont have kids, but Im still putting myself in the "undecided" category with an open mind to baptism if it means im looking at a particular school or what not.

The fact that one has to consider getting a child baptised in order to increase their chances of getting into a particular - state funded!- school is why religion should be removed completely from the publicly funded education system.

The taxes paid by everyone are being used to fund the dissemination of a religious ethos not shared by everyone - but, because the majority of our primary schools are under the control of one particular religious denomination and education is compulsory people are forced to factor in things like schools when deciding whether or not to get their children baptised. That's farcical IMHO.

In answer to the OP - my son was born in the mid 80s and I did get the questions re: baptism. My answer was always the same - 'because I am not a Catholic'. 'But you were baptised' - 'no, I was denied a choice. He will be given a choice'.

I did find most people just looked at me as if I had two heads while I responded with a 'mind your own business' blank look .

wylo

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The fact that one has to consider getting a child baptised in order to increase their chances of getting into a particular - state funded!- school is why religion should be removed completely from the publicly funded education system.

FWIW, I 100% agree with you, and I know that baptising my child wouldnt help things, but I guess personally it just feels like I personally had more options BEING baptized than not being baptized.

But yea I agree , this was the first line of my first reply...

Ill be honest, its a sad fact that you are giving the child more of an option by letting it be baptized than not letting it be baptized.

Bannasidhe

wylo wrote: »

FWIW, I 100% agree with you, and I know that baptising my child wouldnt help things, but I guess personally it just feels like I personally had more options BEING baptized than not being baptized.

But yea I agree , this was the first line of my first reply...

Not being baptised never had any impact on his admission to any school. Indeed, the one school I wasn't able to secure a place for him was the nearest primary to our house (about 100 metres) - a COI school - as it was full of Catholics! I kid you not :rolleyes:.

nozzferrahhtoo

lazygal wrote: »

Any ideas on fending off the mothers and families from sprinkling the magic water?

Explain that Baptism was once reversible later in life if your child wanted to. However after a website called count me out was setup to allow people to do this easily the the Church cynically changed canon law to prevent this.

So your choice to baptise NOW is one that your child no longer has the option to opt out of later should he or she wish to.

Therefore to you it seems better to wait and let them do it if and when they want later, at a point when they understand it is no longer officially reversible and so it will be their choice to permanently brand themselves in this way, not yours.

Gregor Samsa

We didn't baptise our daughter, and got all these questions too. The conversation usually went something like this.

Relative: "Why aren't you baptising her?"
Me: "Why would we? We're not Catholics."
Relative: "But it's a Catholic country!"
Me: "No it's not, and even if it was, so what? If you happened to live in Saudi Arabia when your kids were born, would you have brought them up as Muslims?"
Relative: "But what about Communion and Confirmation? Won't she miss out on the money?"
Me: "I don't think that's what Catholicism is supposed to be all about. But don't worry, we'll still be around to your house hassling you for cash when she's 7 and 12."

We had a naming ceremony in the house. About 60 relatives and friends came (all my side from the other side of the country), and had a great day. Even the devout Catholic ones. Marquee out the back to fit them all, food and drink galore, quick speech by me, live music from the various musicians in the family. I have to say, of all the christenings that have happened in the family, our non-one is the only one that people still talk about as a great event.

Galvasean

If the Christening is 'for' the baby then how come the baby cant have a pint? :pac:

Bannasidhe

Galvasean wrote: »

If the Christening is 'for' the baby then how come the baby cant have a pint? :pac:

They have to wait until after they have taken 'the pledge'.

robindch

Galvasean wrote: »

how come the baby cant have a pint? :pac:

// Successfully resists the urge to make a joke about the wisdom of having drunk kids around priests

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

// Successfully resists the urge to make a joke about the wisdom of having drunk kids around priests

Well, when 'Hermoine' was baptised the priest was so drunk we are fairly sure he missed her when sprinkling the magic water and baptised my nephew's left foot instead. A drunk baby would have just added a new layer to the overall farce .

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

baptised my nephew's left foot instead.

Don't knock it -- at least her left foot could get preferential access to a catholic-controlled school.

And assuming they don't separate the heathen and holy bits of her, she should be able to leap past all those queuing infidels in one blessed hop.

Mark Hamill

wylo wrote: »

It wouldn't , if it sounded like I was saying that apologies, however, going by my own experience, I hold absolutely no bitterness or resentment towards my parents for baptizing me, as a matter of fact , I quite enjoyed my confirmation.
reason being I give such a little **** about what the process means that the only thing it did for me was made their life easier with schooling options and having with stuff like community/confirmation.

Ok, fair enough if thats not what you meant. Dont know what you meant by "If you don't believe in God then a bit of water on a childs head shouldnt mean anything. However it does allow the child to choose later on whether its nonsense or not." though.

wylo wrote: »

They didn't. You seem to make it far more black and white than it is.

You are the one presenting getting money as a defense for doing the baptism (and later ceremonies). You are even trying to argue this in this post, the part where you talk about your nephew getting money and about how other kids dont and about the baptism opening options to get more money further down the line.

wylo wrote: »

What DID happen was that there was an occasion , yea sure , it was based a catholic event.
Put it this way, I gave my nephew 20 euro for his communion. I do not give a crap that I don't believe in God or if he believes in God or not. I didn't need the church permission.
Now, IF my sister/his parents didnt baptize and he still wanted to a part of some celebration , yea sure, I would have given him 20euro anyway. I dont need church permission.
HOWEVER, that may well not have happened if he wasnt celebrating it.

So? Is 20euro that important?

wylo wrote: »

Ive seen other kids that just simply had no celebration because they werent baptized. Is that a horrible nasty thing? No ,but Im of the view, stop giving it so much respect.

If the ceremony isn't important, then why involve it at all?

wylo wrote: »

That, and schooling options yea.

So, to reiterate, one of your defenses for the baptism is more options for getting money from later religious ceremonies? And the other options you mention are for getting into certain schools?

wylo wrote: »

However, if God, and the Church means nothing to you, then really it doesnt matter.

God and the church dont have to matter to me for baptism to matter to me. In fact, its because God and the church dont matter to me that baptism does. Why should I encourage something that only strengthens ideologies and organisations that I dont agree with (whether or not its a passive or active disagreement)? How will doing nothing to stop something I dont agree with improve the situation? What sort of example would I be setting for my kids?

Morag

wylo wrote: »

why? It doesnt mean anything if you dont believe it. You are closing off options because a child is hardly going to turn around at 7 years old and say "Mammy I want to be baptized so I can get my confirmation."

Some do, I had that exact converstaion with both mine when communion time rolled around. It seems the 'norm' when they are in an RC and wondered what they needed to do take part like just about everyone else in the class.

You need to prepare for that happening. I told them both I'd consider it if they went to mass for 6 weeks in a row with their grandparents, neither of them finished out the 6 weeks.

RichieC

lazygal wrote: »

Thanks for replies.

We are not baptizing so as much as I appreciate the comments on school enrollment and sacraments, they will not sway our decision in favour of a baptism. I posted more to get ideas on what to say when people ask "when is the Christening" and are then astounded when we tell them there will not be one.

Good for you. it's a pity there isn't more people like you. when the communions come around just tell your child that he/she wont have to do all the boring mass stuff but promise them their own little day out.

Galvasean

I just thought I'd like to say, in a way I am glad wylo is around to play devil's advocate. Some interesting stuff has come about as a result.

safarigirl

Hi We had a naming ceremony in the unitarian church instead of a christening. My inlaws think baby has been christened even when they know on the invitations it said naming ceremony and i said it was one instead of christening!!! they seemed really happy with it even when it was nothing like a Catholic christening. i chose poems myself , wrote wishes for my daughter as candles were lit, and even explained in the ceremony we wanted her to decide when an adult what religion she would follow or not, that she is a free spirit. I would never ever have water put on my daughters head to wash away sin. Stick to your guns and do what you want. I think as long as you do something when family cant complain. Just make it a lovely day. A naming ceremony, a party at home, a baraque, a welcome to the world party, plant a tree, just something special to mark the day, you will be surprised how well people are open to something new , goodluck!