If this was my daughter, I'd be proud of her!

Conor108

stupidusername wrote: »

So now you're saying that the babies life would've been ruined because it'd have no parents? not suggesting it'd have been shot by the intruders? right.

Wow. No. I'm saying the baby and the girl were in harm's way. I then said

If the mother had gone for and messed up the 'warning shots', the baby could well be growing up without both parents.

You said the life would be ruined stuff.

As Overheal said the whole stalking, killing the dogs and choosing that particular time to break in when they knew she'd be there means they wanted to be there when she was there.

hondasam

Conor108 wrote: »

As Overheal said the whole stalking, killing the dogs and choosing that particular time to break in when they knew she'd be there means they wanted to be there when she was there.

Do we know it was them who killed the dogs for sure?

Biggins

hondasam wrote: »

She knew who he was, probably the reason she did not shoot straight away.
I don't know what his intentions were I don't think it was burglary tbh.
Yes I would protect my children at all costs, that's a given.

She knew who she thought he was - and even then knowing that, she found him (with another) attacking her home.
I think you and I would indeed tried to do same. Defend ourselves for fearing the worst.

stupidusername

Conor108 wrote: »

Wow. No. I'm saying the baby and the girl were in harm's way. I then said You said the life would be ruined stuff.

As Overheal said the whole stalking, killing the dogs and choosing that particular time to break in when they knew she'd be there means they wanted to be there when she was there.

you then quoted 'both parents would be dead'...was your point not to say the childs life would be ruined that way? it doesn't matter anyway, that's what you were saying.

my point was that it's very bloody unlikely yer man was going to do anything to the baby! I could agree that maybe there was a chance of the idea of raping the girl, but then it's another stretch to say he'd have killed the baby too.

Overheal

stupidusername wrote: »

you mean he started considering raping her because he was breaking in?

Don't be so obtuse. I reckon she was aware of the possibility she might be raped.

And no, I think he started considering it long before those 20 minutes.

stupidusername

Overheal wrote: »

Don't be so obtuse. I reckon she was aware of the possibility she might be raped.

And no, I think he started considering it long before those 20 minutes.

oh sweet jesus. of course she may have thought he could have raped her. i'm not talking about that! I'm saying you are jumping to that conclusion about the man.

my point is... ok I stole penny sweets from time to time when I was younger from my grannies shop. i've told you that now, so does that mean that you'd have me down as someone who would be likely to..i dunno...sexually abuse someone, because i stole those penny sweets?

do you assume anyone that would break into a house, would rape someone too?

Biggins

hondasam wrote: »

Do we know it was them who killed the dogs for sure?

There is no absolute proof.
If my reading is right, some dogs were killed and others again went missing?
If it happened once in such a short time - might be coincidence - twice or more in such a time, might indicate something more.

Overheal

stupidusername wrote: »

oh sweet jesus. of course she may have thought he could have raped her. i'm not talking about that! I'm saying you are jumping to that conclusion about the man.

It's really not that much of a jump, but yes, I am perfectly aware it cannot be proven empirically. I hope that's all. If it's not I've entirely missed the point you are trying to make with this tangent.

my point is... ok I stole penny sweets from time to time when I was younger from my grannies shop. i've told you that now, so does that mean that you'd have me down as someone who would be likely to..i dunno...sexually abuse someone, because i stole those penny sweets?

do you assume anyone that would break into a house, would rape someone too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

Minstrel27

stupidusername wrote: »

you mean he started considering raping her because he was breaking in?

Who knows what he would have done. Breaking into a house equates to bad intentions.

hondasam

Biggins wrote: »

She knew who she thought he was - and even then knowing that, she found him (with another) attacking her home.
I think you and I would indeed tried to do same. Defend ourselves for fearing the worst.

I know she was scared, defending herself and protecting her baby and I'm all for that but killing someone is something else.
I hope she can get on with her life, it will not be easy for her.

you were right earlier he had the chance to leave but he didn't.

Overheal

@Stupidusername

http://www.biography.com/tv/i-survived/videos/jessica-intruder-2174041233

stupidusername

Overheal wrote: »

It's really not that much of a jump, but yes, I am perfectly aware it cannot be proven empirically. I hope that's all. If it's not I've entirely missed the point you are trying to make with this tangent.

i made it pretty clear in my original post here that it was a tangent. I've been trying to find statistics for how many burglars are also rapists, and can't. but i dunno, it seems clear to me that somebody breaking into someones house does not equate to them being a rapist.

Minstrel27 wrote: »

Who knows what he would have done. Breaking into a house equates to bad intentions.

yes but it mostly equates to the bad intention of stealing something!

Overheal wrote: »

@Stupidusername

http://www.biography.com/tv/i-survived/videos/jessica-intruder-2174041233

OMG! It happened once, so it must happen every time!

Conor108

stupidusername wrote: »

you then quoted 'both parents would be dead'...was your point not to say the childs life would be ruined that way?

I don't know ruined is maybe a bit strong, I obviously don't know their family situation or what happens in the US in this situation.

it doesn't matter anyway, that's what you were saying.

Oh..okay.

my point was that it's very bloody unlikely yer man was going to do anything to the baby! I could agree that maybe there was a chance of the idea of raping the girl, but then it's another stretch to say he'd have killed the baby too.

I'm not saying he was definitely gonna kill the baby I'm JUST saying it was a bad situation for the baby to be in and the mother did what she needed to protect the baby.

I don't see why the rape thing is such a stretch If it was a robbery I can't imagine why they'd spend 20+ minutes making noise trying to knock down a door and pick a time she was at home.

Overheal

stupidusername wrote: »

OMG! It happened once, so it must happen every time!

So let's take the chance and maybe it won't happen to me.

Seriously.

I will again ask you what point you are trying to make here, that it's a shame he's dead?

DaveDaRave

hawkelady wrote: »

whats your point,exactly?? he was breaking in....end of .. whether it was to rape or to steal an effing mircowave!! he still got what coming to him.

Mother 1 Burglar 0
Good result

So the punishment for theft should be the death penalty ?

Conor108

Dammit Overheal I have that video open and was just about to post it! well played!:)

Overheal

DaveDaRave wrote: »

So the punishment for theft should be the death penalty ?

No. Castle Doctrine is not designed to circumvent due process.

Conor my googles are faster than your googles

Chuck Stone

I don't know why I thought of this - I just did.

hondasam

stupidusername wrote: »

i made it pretty clear in my original post here that it was a tangent. I've been trying to find statistics for how many burglars are also rapists, and can't. but i dunno, it seems clear to me that somebody breaking into someones house does not equate to them being a rapist.

No one is saying all burglars are rapists, very few are but sometimes it happens even if it was not the intention.
The fact he stalked this girl, met her in the town, is a neighbour called to her house I think his intentions could have been rape.
I don't think she had anything worth stealing in the house.

Overheal

hondasam wrote: »

No one is saying all burglars are rapists, very few are but sometimes it happens even if it was not the intention.

Thank you.

Just because the worst might not happen to you doesn't mean you shouldn't be prepared for it. Otherwise I'd dump all my life savings onto a roulette table since losing only happens to some people.

Biggins

Conor108 wrote: »

I'm not saying he was definitely gonna kill the baby I'm JUST saying it was a bad situation for the baby to be in and the mother did what she needed to protect the baby.

I don't see why the rape thing is such a stretch If it was a robbery I can't imagine why they'd spend 20+ minutes making noise trying to knock down a door and pick a time she was at home.

I'm assuming that the mother might have been afraid that (a) the baby might have been used as a 'method of persuasion for co-operation' - what that might further entail, I dread to think!
...And how far would they have gone to make the mother do something/co-operate!

or (b) the risk of real actual harm to her and/or the child.

IF as there is some indications - that the two guys possibly went for the house KNOWING the young girl was in (and they not waiting for her to NOT be there) - their intentions might be read as they were just not after drugs alone!
At least thats how I initially see it.

stupidusername

stupidusername wrote: »

Oh and I don't know where the idea the intention of rape came from

stupidusername wrote: »

Burglary and rape are very different classes of crime.

stupidusername wrote: »

I'm saying why would you jump to the conclusion that they were going to rape her!? Doesn't make any sense.

stupidusername wrote: »

What I read about the stalking was that he had stalked her at one event two years previous. that, to me, doesn't necessarily mean someone is a rapist.

stupidusername wrote: »

I'm saying you are jumping to that conclusion about the man.

do you assume anyone that would break into a house, would rape someone too?

stupidusername wrote: »

it seems clear to me that somebody breaking into someones house does not equate to them being a rapist.

Overheal wrote: »

I will again ask you what point you are trying to make here, that it's a shame he's dead?

i'm not it's not possible. i'm saying it doesn't make sense for you to jump to that conclusion

well, i've done my best. i'll leave it there.

sheesh

I feel sorry for the couch why does nobody ever think about the couch!!!

serious reply I say well done to her. it is oklahoma the guy had to have guessed that there had to be at least one gun in the house I think more than entitled to shoot at him.

arybvtcw0eolkf

ScumLord wrote: »

The leg shot is a Hollywood myth, no one trained in weapons would advise such a shot it would be an extremely stupid move in what was life or death situation. It's even dafter to suggest an untrained person should try and pull of something that's both difficult and ineffective.

Yes and No...

no one trained in weapons would advise such a shot it

I'm trained to fire warning shots, containing shots, shots to incapacitate (ie extremities) and finally shoot to kill - given the right circumstances I can go straight to shot to kill.

It's even dafter to suggest an untrained person should try and pull of something that's both difficult and ineffective.

Thumbs up on this one.

The girl done the right thing, fair dues to her.

jackal

I'm sure he was going to use the 12 inch knife merely to prise open the jewellery box.

Minstrel27

stupidusername wrote: »

yes but it mostly equates to the bad intention of stealing something!

If you bring a huge knife then it is goes beyond stealing something.

Micky Dolenz

It's beside the point what their intentions were. the facts are they broke into the house and were armed.

What more do you need to know before you start putting holes in them?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

It's beside the point what their intentions were. the facts are they broke into the house and were armed.

What more do you need to know before you start putting holes in them?

+1 on that one.

Plus rapists should be shot dead anyway.

hondasam

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

It's beside the point what their intentions were. the facts are they broke into the house and were armed.

What more do you need to know before you start putting holes in them?

Could you honestly say you would shoot someone?

I have a gun in my house but I would not use it, I hate guns.

Feisar

Shoot him in the legs???

Why not shoot him dead? I don't see why people try and bind the innocent with civil rights for criminals.

Do soldiers shoot people in the legs?

This woman was in a personal war for her survival she didn't volunteer for. War came to her front door. I can't find fault in her actions.

Micky Dolenz

hondasam wrote: »

Could you honestly say you would shoot someone?

I have a gun in my house but I would not use it, I hate guns.

Honestly, yes. It would be easier then beating someone to death.

lastlaugh

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Why not shoot him in the legs?

Why not shoot him in the face is what I want to know.

whatdoicare

Wanna know what happens in Ireland in the same situation? This is a true account of what happened to me...

I live in an estate next to a well known rough estate, I'm a girl, alone in the house. It is 4 am. The dog next door starts barking waking me, neighbours gone on holidays - I take a peek outside and see two guys heading up my drive way - one has what looks like an iron bar in his hand.

I ring my local garda station - get no answer - so ring the next station to that (no more than 10 minutes drive apart)

I finally get an answer and tell the garda (who did not give a name) my situation, my phone number, address and give a detailed description of the two men - including the iron bar.
At this point the two men have reached my car and are messing with the drivers side door.

I repeat that I am on my own and have no way to defend myself to the garda - he proceeds to tell me to ring the first Garda station again and without saying another word hangs up.

I try ringing the first Garda station a further three more times before getting an answer - it's the Garda I was first in contact with, the phone at station one had patched me through to his station - when he realises it's me again he becomes annoyed at me, even though I tell him that it was the other station that I rang.

At this point the two men have left my car, peered in my sitting room window and were now attempting to climb the wall to access my back garden. I describe all of this to the Garda. He sighs and tells me he'll send a car over.
He then hangs up.

I turn on all the lights in my house and run up and down my stairs in heavy boots to try and scare them away - luckily, this is enough to get them to move on.... I wait by the window for the Garda car......for three hours.

The car finally rolls up, passes my house without slowing down, does a u turn and drives away. They had no idea if I was dead or alive and no further contact was made to me.

I'd love to have been allowed a gun and permission to shoot - if the two men had decided to break into my home I had no way of defending myself whatsoever.

stupidusername

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

It's beside the point what their intentions were. the facts are they broke into the house and were armed.

What more do you need to know before you start putting holes in them?

I assume this is directed at me? It doesn't make a difference what his intentions were,in terms of her actions. I didn't say it did.

I said Overheal is wrong to assume a burglar is a rapist. It's really that simple. I didn't say anywhere that she was wrong.

Its like those ads before a dvd starts: you wouldn't steal a car.well no the majority of people wouldn't but then the majority would also not consider downloading a copy of a dvd the same as stealing a car.

Feisar

lastlaugh wrote: »

Why not shoot him in the face is what I want to know.

Center of mass, biggest target.

krudler

hondasam wrote: »

Could you honestly say you would shoot someone?

I have a gun in my house but I would not use it, I hate guns.

what if you were attacked in your home?

Micky Dolenz

stupidusername wrote: »

I assume this is directed at me? It doesn't make a difference what his intentions were,in terms of her actions. I didn't say it did.

You assume incorrectly. I was making more of a general comment

lastlaugh

Feisar wrote: »

Center of mass, biggest target.

Good point.

Still though, a bullet in the head is warrented sometimes.

Micky Dolenz

lastlaugh wrote: »

Good point.

Still though, a bullet in the head is warrented sometimes.

zombie attack?

mikemac1

whatdoicare wrote: »

I ring my local garda station - get no answer - so ring the next station to that (no more than 10 minutes drive apart)

Why not ring the emergency line, that's what it is there for

The local station might ignore you but they won't ignore their superiors who are responsible for the emergency line

lastlaugh

Micky Dolenz wrote: »

zombie attack?

That and Bunga Bunga attack.

Overheal

hondasam wrote: »

Could you honestly say you would shoot someone?

I have a gun in my house but I would not use it, I hate guns.

I hate dying more.

hondasam

krudler wrote: »

what if you were attacked in your home?

I dunno honestly, the gun is locked away for a start so it would take time to get it and load it.
The natural reaction is to defend ourselves so maybe I would shoot if I had to.
I feel safe with my german shepard sitting inside the patio door.

SeanW

KeithAFC wrote: »

This is an interesting one. I don't think she did do the right thing by killing the man. She should have shot him in the leg or the arm. I think this killing might send out the wrong message.

I would question what made this man try to enter the house to commit robbery.

With all due respect I think the first part of your post is a little idealistic for a bunch of reasons:

1. You are assuming she was an excellent marksman (or is it markswoman?)
2. You are assuming that a shot in the leg/arm would have stopped the attack
3. You're assuming that the attackers would have just run off and licked their wounds, never to return (they could have come back with big ass guns to get revenge or finish what they started)
4. She was actually in the potentially life threatening situation protecting her baby. We are all chatting about this in relative safety behind keyboards.

As to why these men were trying to break into the house while she was there, does it really matter?

hondasam

whatdoicare wrote: »

I'd love to have been allowed a gun and permission to shoot - if the two men had decided to break into my home I had no way of defending myself whatsoever.

Do we really want to live in a society that allows us all to have guns with a shoot to kill policy.

krudler

hondasam wrote: »

I dunno honestly, the gun is locked away for a start so it would take time to get it and load it.
The natural reaction is to defend ourselves so maybe I would shoot if I had to.
I feel safe with my german shepard sitting inside the patio door.

Im sure girl in the story did too, until the burglars killed the dog. now how safe would you feel?

if it came to taking some theiving scumbags civil liberties into account or doing what i felt was right at the time to defend myself I know what I'd do, completely justified what she did imo.

hondasam

krudler wrote: »

Im sure girl in the story did too, until the burglars killed the dog. now how safe would you feel?

if it came to taking some theiving scumbags civil liberties into account or doing what i felt was right at the time to defend myself I know what I'd do, completely justified what she did imo.

We do not know who killed her dog, it did not happen on the same day.
Killing my dog would be worse for me than stealing everything in my house.

JuliusCaesar

whatdoicare wrote: »

Wanna know what happens in Ireland in the same situation? This is a true account of what happened to me...

I live in an estate next to a well known rough estate, I'm a girl, alone in the house. It is 4 am. .....

In one place I lived, we had a spate of attempted and one successful burglary here in Dublin. I was in all cases alone, once with a small child. I'm female.

Episode 1: I rang my local station, having been woken by a noise, to say there was a guy climbing my drainpipe. Gardai were there in 10 minutes. They told me NOT to ring the station is such circumstances, but to ring 999 - or 112.

Episode 2: again, guy trying to break into back of house. Gardai there within 15 minutes. I had rung 999.

Episode 3: fast asleep, I only woke up when the burglar opened my bedroom door. My 2 year old child was in the bed beside me. Burglar threatened me not to move and started going through everything yelling at me to tell him where I kept the money. He was there for about 10 minutes. When he left I found the phone wires had been cut. (This was before mobiles were very common) Had to wake up neighbours to call the gardai. They were there very soon, had me come round to the station to see if I could identify the guy and kept in touch for ages. They took the 'aggravated burglary' very seriously.

Got an alarm, and no episodes since, thank heavens.



(Although I have to say my first reaction on reading the OPs story was - 16! and married a 50 year old! jeez)

Micky Dolenz

JuliusCaesar wrote: »

Episode 3: fast asleep, I only woke up when the burglar opened my bedroom door. My 2 year old child was in the bed beside me. Burglar threatened me not to move and started going through everything yelling at me to tell him where I kept the money. He was there for about 10 minutes. When he left I found the phone wires had been cut. (This was before mobiles were very common) Had to wake up neighbours to call the gardai. They were there very soon, had me come round to the station to see if I could identify the guy and kept in touch for ages. They took the 'aggravated burglary' very seriously.

Got an alarm, and no episodes since, thank heavens.

:eek: Thats shocking. Must have been a very scary experience.

Cicero

What's significant in this case is that the law is on her side....I pitied that poor farmer Padraig Nally who went through two trials in order to ultimately avoid a prison sentence....he was tormented by previous burglaries and lived in a constant state of fear....I know there were aspects of that case that are different to this one but at the end of the day, both are about defending yourself and your property from attack...People need more law to support them in the area of self defence at home.

I don't like to see anyone die in these situations but I do think the rights of the home owner take precedence over an intruder...unfortunately, few rights currently exist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_John_Ward