Run Fat Boy Run - The lazy mans guide to Ironman and Marathon training.

griffin100

I had my first coached swim session since last December last night. New coach for me but I do know him and he's big believer in the minimum number of strokes as possible approach and a big fan of pushing the distance per stroke mantra. Sure enough he was complementary of my smooth stroke but reckoned I was working too hard for the distance covered, taking up to 33% more strokes that the guy beside me of a similar ability. He was pushing me to pause at the end of the entry phase before starting the catch. There's a really good interview with Dave Scott here where he reckons that distance per stroke is not everything and tbh I haven't counted my strokes or done a swim golf score in months but I'll take on board what he's saying and see if it makes a difference.

It was interesting to compare my swimming last night to the last time I was in that pool 18 months ago. I trained for my first two IM's in this 20m pool and I used to take 8-9 breaths per length and the fastest I ever did a 100m in this pool was 1.40 after which I almost died; last night I was taking 1-2 breaths per 20m length and in my cool down I covered 200m at 1.40 per 100 pace - nice to be able to compare now to a couple of years ago. I also came away from the pool wondering how I ever did 3,800m straight swims in a 20m pool.

shotgunmcos

griffin100 wrote: »

... I also came away from the pool wondering how I ever did 3,800m straight swims in a 20m pool.

:eek: yuck! How many strokes does it take you to cover 100m?

griffin100

shotgunmcos wrote: »

:eek: yuck! How many strokes does it take you to cover 100m?

First chance I've had to check my stroke rate........was hitting 27-29 strokes per 50m length today with an average of between 50-52 secs per 50m. Using the Swim Smooth stroke rate tool that puts my stroke rate in the 'sweet spot' zone, although I'm closer to the high stroke rate than the low stroke rate so there is a bit of room to reduce stroke count a good bit and stay in the sweet spot zone - by as many as 10 strokes per 100m. The coach may have a point.......

Dory Dory

griffin100 wrote: »

It was interesting to compare my swimming last night to the last time I was in that pool 18 months ago. I trained for my first two IM's in this 20m pool and I used to take 8-9 breaths per length and the fastest I ever did a 100m in this pool was 1.40 after which I almost died; last night I was taking 1-2 breaths per 20m length

Out of curiosity, if you were only taking 1-2 breaths per 20 meters, how many strokes per breath were you taking then? And were you doing short, spiffy stuff...or long, lovely stuff?

Funny how stroke efficiency via fewer strokes per distance is promoted for swimming while higher cadence via spinning like an idiot is promoted for cycling. Maybe this is why I am a masher.

griffin100

Dory Dory wrote: »

Out of curiosity, if you were only taking 1-2 breaths per 20 meters, how many strokes per breath were you taking then? And were you doing short, spiffy stuff...or long, lovely stuff?

I was taking a breath every 4-6 strokes, easy to do in a 20m pool with a big push off the wall. It was all short stuff in the session, 80m kick x 10; 60m x 10 building; that sort of stuff. Even when pushing hard a 20m pool is a puddle when you are used to a 50m pool

My current pb for the half marathon is 1.34.42. In this training block I've been training with bettering this in mind at the Clontarf Half at the end of the month. tbh anything under this time would be great, I did this time a few weeks out from Connemara early last year towards the end of the P&D 55mpw plan so was in much better shape than I am now. I've been using Hal Higdons Advanced HM plan and its got lots of speed work in it and tbh I feel like I've been struggling with this. I seem to find 10km pace and HM race pace very hard to hold when doing intervals, so today I planned on a tester session. The plan was to run 15kms at my current HM pb pace (4.30 per km) or slightly faster if possible. I wasn't holding out much hope.........To my surprise I ended up running the 15km an an average 4.22 per km pace, and felt very comfortable the whole time. My pace was consistent with all kms coming in between 4.21 and 4.24. I'm very happy with that. I felt like another 6kms at that pace was possible today (and I was tempted to give it a go until stomach issues intervened - I have a bit of a tummy bug at the minute); that pace would give me a time for the half of just under 1.32 - I'd take that .........then again a little voice in the back of my head is telling me to run the first 10km with the 1.30 pacers (which would give me a 10km pb) and then see how I feel.........but the other voice in my head is telling me that that could be suicidal, especially as McMillan tells me I am nowhere near sub 90 minute HM shape.

griffin100

I did a run session I haven't done in a while tonight (1km @ 5km race pace / 400m recovery) x 5. It's a nice short set and if done properly is a real lung buster. I love it. Each of my 1km repeats came in at 3.53-55. I don't think I've managed to get all km repeats in this session under 4mins in months, if ever!!! I'm contemplating a 5km race this weekend to see where my short stuff is at, I think 7 days between a 5km and my target half marathon is enough recovery time. I need to loom at the course first to make sure it's flat

griffin100

Did a 5km race yesterday. Absolute disaster. Ran the first two 2km well, holding 3.45ish pace per km as they were downhill, turned into the wind and a long 2km drag, ran these two kms at 4.15 pace, threw my toys out of my pram and finished in 20.15. I really wanted to be 30 secs faster than that overall but I didn't push hard enough, didn't suffer hard enough to deserve it (I have absolutely no soreness today, I should be sore the day after a 5km race, no?). Not a day to remember

Dory Dory

^^^^

griffin100

Not much done this week, tapering for Saturday. Still trying to decide on race day strategy. Do I throw caution to the wind and run with the sub 90 min pacers; or do I try for a 1.32 which would be a PB by over 2 mins and which I would be happy is doable based on my last long run.

griffin100

A broken tooth and an emergency dental appointment for tomorrow morning.......Saturday could be a disaster :eek:

mossym

griffin100 wrote: »

A broken tooth and an emergency dental appointment for tomorrow morning.......Saturday could be a disaster :eek:

fingers crossed for you, hopefully you can still race

griffin100

Phew, teeth fixed and no major damage. Run still on for tomorrow.

Izoard

Best of luck, Chief. If I see you, that won't be good news for you...:)

Dory Dory

Good luck tomorrow griffin. I'd probably start off at a realistic pace, then empty the tank at the end. No sense starting off like a mad idiot and then blowing up as there is no fun in that. To pass rather than be passed at the end is way better. Have fun!

griffin100

Izoard wrote: »

Best of luck, Chief. If I see you, that won't be good news for you...:)

I'll keep an eye out for you and feign an injury if needs be as you pass

Good luck tomorrow griffin. I'd probably start off at a realistic pace, then empty the tank at the end. No sense starting off like a mad idiot and then blowing up as there is no fun in that. To pass rather than be passed at the end is way better. Have fun!

Eminently sensible advice. I'm sure I'll follow it :pac:

Izoard

A game of seconds:)... Well done!

griffin100

Clontarf Half Marathon
This was entered purely to give me something to train for after a summer of mostly swimming. The hope was to beat my existing 1.34.42 pb. I used Hal Higdons advanced HM plan dropping in to week 4/5. I found the plan easy enough in mileage, but I suffered with the 'speed work' for some reason. A couple of weeks ago a 15km tester suggested a 1.32 was on the cards which I'd be delighted with.

This morning was perfect conditions, cold but not excessive. I did notice a headwind was blowing for the return leg but hoped it wouldn't be too bad. I started just behind the 1.30 pacers, but I never really thought I had a hope of doing a sub 90. The course was tight with a small bit of congestion but not too bad due to the multiple wave starts. I kept about 20m behind the pacers using them to pace off. First few kms were on the road, and then we hit the beach. Sand was nice and hard and easy enough to run on. At about 8km the 90 min pacers were pulling away a bit and I let them go. Feeling pretty good I hit the 10km mark in 43.11, a new 10km PB (I've done a 10km in training in 43.10 according to the Garmin but a Garmin isn't as accurate as an AAI permitted race ). First 10km splits were 4.14; 4.16; 4.15; 4.12; 4.17, 4.19; 4.25; 4.23; 4.18; 4.21.

We turned around at 10.5km for home and still going ok. At this stage I was running with a girl from Raheny Shamrocks and we pretty much stayed together on our own till the end. I was still thinking a 1.32-33 was on the cards but I was worried about the awaiting headwind. Kms 11-13 were ok but then we hit the beach for the return leg and the head wind was horrible. There were only the two of us running together about 100m behind a larger group so there was nowhere to shelter. The pace dropped right off but the effort was going up. The beach seemed to go on forever and ever. By the time we got back onto the road surface I was in a bad place. My feet were in ribbons from running on the sand and I was done in. It took every ounce of effort not to stop. Eventually the line came into sight and it was crossed in just about a new PB of 1.34.13. 100th place out of 990 finishers. Garmin showed 21.2kms. The last 11km splits were 4.18; 4.22; 4.26; 4.24; 4.29; 4.42; 4.44; 4.48 :eek:; 4.41; 4.39; 4.35. You can see where we hit the headwind and I slowed and never recovered. Given the stare I'm in at the minute and the mess my feet are in with blisters I don't think I had much more to give.

Despite that happy enough, a new 10km and 21km PB in the same race off very limited training. I've definitely got a 1.32 in me for another day I think.

Dory Dory

No doubt you've got loads more in you with some specific/consistent training. Well done...and mind those feet! :)

griffin100

First swim in ages (well 10 days) today. Nothing mad, just a few 100's and 200's with plenty of rest. Averaging 1.40 per 100 so ok. I plan to spend some more time in the pool over the next few weeks with a view to improving my 400m TT.

catweazle

A beach run

Not the most encouraging conditions to have a go at a pb - still the pb is going down so that's all that matters well done

griffin100

A simple swim today - 100-200-300-400-300-200-100 (total 1600m) off 2mins per 100m. Started of at 1.40 per 100 pace, slowed to 1.50 per 100 by the end and was swallowing water at that stage.

griffin100

4 swims this week!!! All short, bit still, 4 times in the pool including a double day yesterday when I did a 400m TT in the morning and a hard coached technique session last night. I am stiff today

Yesterday I got my 400TT time back to within 5 secs of my PB from the summer. During the TT I was thinking of early vertical forearm along with a 'fixed' elbow when making the catch. Splits were 1.29 / 1.42 / 1.41 / 1.40 - 6.32. Obviously went off far too fast. I need to pace these a bit better but I'm well happy with that.

Last nights coached session was mainly based around catch up drills. By getting me to delay my catch until my recovering hand was passing my head coach was taking 5-6 strokes off per length. Felt very awkward but I'll give it a go and see how it goes. According to the coach my recovering arm leaves the water at the same time as my other hand is making the catch so he says I need to work on this.

griffin100

Swimming is a fickle mistress.......last week I swam a close to PB 400 TT, on Monday of this week I did one of my favorite sets of 100m x 3 off 1.55 / 100 x 3 off 1.50 / 100 x 3 off 1.45 and I brought all 9 repeats in on between 1.35 and 1.40. Yesterday I struggled to hold 2min per 100m pace :eek: Yes I was tired and have sinus issues at the minute but jaysus that's some slowdown.

griffin100

Despite having decided some time ago that marathons were no longer for me as I don't like pain it looks like I'm in again :rolleyes: The Zurich Marathon in April is now likely. My wife's sister lives there and we were planning to visit around that time so might as well tie it in with an event. IM Zurich was silly money - the marathon is €90 to enter with flights about 25% cheaper than the IM weekend so it makes sense. Target wise I'm going to be massively over optimistic with a 3.15-3.20 target time. That's a big improvement on my 3.37 pb but no point in having too soft a target, and my recent 1.34 half suggest this is a suitable goal time. So with that in mind this week was week 1 of the 18 week P&D 55mpw plan, the same one I used when getting my pb. Key runs this week were:

• Lactate Threshold run with 6km at HM pace (4.25 per km)
• 14km @ 5.08 km pace
• LSR of 20km @ 5.05 per km pace

Total mileage for the week 50km (plus 3 swims).

Dory Dory

Your marathon target time is definitely realistic. Go for it!!!!!

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

griffin100 wrote: »

So with that in mind this week was week 1 of the 18 week P&D 55mpw plan, the same one I used when getting my pb. Key runs this week were:

You might find an adopted JD plan more beneficial, not sure if you have used prior but i find the little P&D plan a little limited in places.

griffin100

Bria Careful Schoolteacher wrote: »

You might find an adopted JD plan more beneficial, not sure if you have used prior but i find the little P&D plan a little limited in places.

I haven't ever looked at a JD plan - do I need to get his book or is it online anywhere do you know?

griffin100

Week 2 of 18 Marathon Plan..........14kms @ 5.01 min/km. Much faster than I intended but I had to get back to work for a meeting so it was either run faster or run shorter

Spent 1,000m doing drills with fins on for all. Did some kick and balance drills and then catch up and one arm drills with a big emphasis on body rotation. Finished off with 100m x 5 off 1.50 moderate effort (in on 1.35-40) / 100 x 5 off 1.55 easy effort (in on 1.45-50). Felt good in the water. Total 2,000m.

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

griffin100 wrote: »

I haven't ever looked at a JD plan - do I need to get his book or is it online anywhere do you know?

I had a read of his book, well worth it imo. PM me your mail and i can send you an adapted plan which i worked on for our running club this year. The first 8 weeks focuses on 5/10k before 14 weeks of marathon specific work.

griffin100

Fridays run was 16km @ avg. 5.06 pace. Then off to a Christmas party for an evening of excess and abandon that I paid for dearly all day Saturday. I still managed to make it to the last swim session of the year for the kids to watch them do their individual medley session to round off the year - 4 x widths of butterfly, backstroke, breaststroke and front crawl. I was in awe of my 8 years old's butterfly technique. Makes me realise the advantages of starting them early in the pool - a clubmates 12 year old daughter can do a 1.10 100m front crawl:eek:

Todays LSR was 21kms - 5km @ 5.10km pace; 10km @ PMP, 4.35km pace - 6km @ 5.12km pace. Felt ok on the PMP part, got very tired towards the end and the feet hurt a lot. Happy to get it done on a wet and windy day.

This week could be a bit of a struggle training wise. My son is in hospital tomorrow for surgery to fix his heart problem, hopefully once and for all. It's gonna be a long couple of days!!