Who should wear 13 for the Six Nations?

CatFromHue

lynchy101 wrote: »

That is an idiotic argument.

Our two best performances of the year came with POC and DOC in the second row.So therfore you think DOC should start the 6 Nations yeah?

Our two best performances were when the team played with purpose and dynamism that was missing from all the other games. Considering the halfbacks are so important to how the team plays I don't think you can call it an idiotic argument.

Benny Cake

Luke Fitzgerald

CatFromHue wrote: »

Our two best performances were when the team played with purpose and dynamism that was missing from all the other games. Considering the halfbacks are so important to how the team plays I don't think you can call it an idiotic argument.

You didn't answer his question regarding POC & DOC? Surely the same logic applies...

Picking guys in pairs is rubbish, Murray is just as capable of playing with Sexton as Reddan is...

seanin4711

Eoin O' Malley

same auld team will not win anything this year(ie team that was beaten by wales in RWC)
We really need to introduce players a la France two seasons ago,as was proven by our "Wonderful world cup" were we peaked for one game against the aussies!(where did they finish up?)
We are woeful in bringing through players just look at wales as an example (Wales for the championship,there i said it!)

Gwan kidney your as conservative as EOS time to roll the dice and give the youngsters a run!

danthefan

Eoin Griffin

Benny Cake wrote: »

You didn't answer his question regarding POC & DOC? Surely the same logic applies...

Picking guys in pairs is rubbish, Murray is just as capable of playing with Sexton as Reddan is...

Please don't tell me you're even remotely suggesting that locks have the same influence on the style and tempo at which a team plays as the halfbacks, and the SH in particular.

lynchy101

Luke Fitzgerald

CatFromHue wrote: »

Our two best performances were when the team played with purpose and dynamism that was missing from all the other games. Considering the halfbacks are so important to how the team plays I don't think you can call it an idiotic argument.

The second row was a huge part in the two wins.
What I am saying is you have to pick the best player for each position.

seanin4711

Eoin O' Malley

Brian O' Driscoll making Gordon D'arcy look good for years!

Earls in center does not have the size to tackle bigger lads coming through.
Can you imagine earls tackling BOD for example?
ONly one winner there everytime.

CatFromHue

Benny Cake wrote: »

You didn't answer his question regarding POC & DOC? Surely the same logic applies...

Picking guys in pairs is rubbish, Murray is just as capable of playing with Sexton as Reddan is...

POC and DOC do completely different jobs though. It's in no way a similar comparison.

Do POC and DOC decide how flat the outhalf plays to the gainline or how quick the ball is passed from a ruck or maul?

If the outhalf plays flat and gets quick ball the team transforms into a much more attacking threat and makes the team play a faster game.

lynchy101

Luke Fitzgerald

danthefan wrote: »

Please don't tell me you're even remotely suggesting that locks have the same influence on the style and tempo at which a team plays as the halfbacks, and the SH in particular.

Are you really suggesting that Reddan should be picked on the basis he played well in a game that was won by the forwards,?

irishbucsfan

Eoin Griffin

lynchy101 wrote: »

Are you really suggesting that Reddan should be picked on the basis he played well in a game that was won by the forwards,?

Our two best performances (and arguably, the only good ones) of the year also happened to be the only two in which Sexton and Reddan started together.

Can you really not see the pattern that emerges there? It's really not too difficult to understand what he means.

jacothelad

Eoin Griffin

Moflojo wrote: »

6N Backline against weaker opposition:

9. Boss 60mins/Murray 20mins
10. ROG
11. T. O'Halloran
12. G. Darcy
13. E. O'Malley
14. A. Trimble
15. D. Hurley

Reasons:

• Hurley is 2nd best FB in the country at the moment I think.

I doubt if he's even the second best full back at Munster.

Benny Cake

Luke Fitzgerald

danthefan wrote: »

Please don't tell me you're even remotely suggesting that locks have the same influence on the style and tempo at which a team plays as the halfbacks, and the SH in particular.

No, I'm suggesting your reasoning behind "Ireland played well, therefore Reddan & Sexton should be first choice" is every bit as nonsensical as the notion that DOC & POC should be picked for the same reasons...

irishbucsfan

Eoin Griffin

Moflojo wrote: »

I'd love to see him nail down the 11 jersey for Leinster,.

This makes me question what I've been watching for the past few months.

Tox56

Fergus McFadden

Benny Cake wrote: »

Don't be so precious, Murray had a solid world cup & has been excellent for Munster since... It will hardly be unwarranted if he is selected ahead of Reddan.

Although I would would rather have Reddan there, what I took objection to was the "Obvious choice" remark. It think that it's relatively 50/50 in terms of who will get picked at SH and probably the biggest straight shoot-out for position in the team, so I didn't have a clue where this came from.

danthefan

Eoin Griffin

Benny Cake wrote: »

No, I'm suggesting your reasoning behind "Ireland played well, therefore Reddan & Sexton should be first choice" is every bit as nonsensical as the notion that DOC & POC should be picked for the same reasons...

Not really much I can say to this other than repeat myself, so meh.

Tox56

Fergus McFadden

People keep saying "pick the better player" and not the pairing, but I think Murray/Reddan is virtually 50/50, with Reddan getting it based on Reddan/Sexton pairing being more tried, tested and familiar than Murray/Sexton.

irishbucsfan

Eoin Griffin

Benny Cake wrote: »

No, I'm suggesting your reasoning behind "Ireland played well, therefore Reddan & Sexton should be first choice" is every bit as nonsensical as the notion that DOC & POC should be picked for the same reasons...

DOC and POC also started together in poor performances though! You are failing to understand the whole point.

Benny Cake

Luke Fitzgerald

danthefan wrote: »

Not really much I can say to this other than repeat myself, so meh.

:rolleyes:

ray jay

Eoin Griffin

It's clear that Reddan would be better for a higher tempo style, so whether he gets the 9 jersey will depend on what the game plan is.

danthefan

Eoin Griffin

Benny Cake wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Very articulate. If you insist on missing the point then I couldn't be bothered, simple as that.

thomond2006

Eoin Griffin

Moflojo wrote: »

6N Backline against weaker opposition:

9. Boss 60mins/Murray 20mins
10. ROG
11. T. O'Halloran
12. G. Darcy
13. E. O'Malley
14. A. Trimble
15. D. Hurley

Handing out caps like that, ugh.

Moflojo

Keith Earls

irishbucsfan wrote: »

This makes me question what I've been watching for the past few months.

Way to take a comment out of context!

I also stand by my comment about Denis Hurley, he has been outstanding at fullback for the past few games with Munster. He has been Munster's most creative back this season and has looked solid in defence and under the high ball.

(Cue jibes about the lack of creativity in Munster's backline...)

Benny Cake

Luke Fitzgerald

danthefan wrote: »

Very articulate. If you insist on missing the point then I couldn't be bothered, simple as that.

Ok, I'll start again. I fundamentally disagree with your assumption that Reddan & Sexton as a pairing were directly responsible for, as you put it, Irelands two best performances last season...

I also don't believe that the management should be picking players in pairs. Top class players like Murray can & will adapt to playing with someone different i.e. Sexton.

When analysing the available scrum halves, the selectors should have the skills to analyse an individuals performance in isolation and not depend on who they were playing with on the day. Munster & O'Gara play a very different game to Leinster & Sexton which makes comparing players in the skill positions like 9 & 10 difficult... The elevation of Reddan to Irelands first choice 9 by some posters here, simply because Sexton is playing well, is flawed.

Is that articulate enough for you?

michelledoh

Benny Cake wrote: »

Ok, I'll start again. I fundamentally disagree with your assumption that Reddan & Sexton as a pairing were directly responsible for, as you put it, Irelands two best performances last season...

I also don't believe that the management should be picking players in pairs. Top class players like Murray can & will adapt to playing with someone different i.e. Sexton.

When analysing the available scrum halves, the selectors should have the skills to analyse an individuals performance in isolation and not depend on who they were playing with on the day. Munster & O'Gara play a very different game to Leinster & Sexton which makes comparing players in the skill positions like 9 & 10 difficult... The elevation of Reddan to Irelands first choice 9 by some posters here, simply because Sexton is playing well, is flawed.

Is that articulate enough for you?

Exactly, you've got it in one
Munster and O Gara do play a different game, and Reddan suits Sextons game, and the gameplan which won us the English and Aus games, ie quick ball. Murray does not.

Furthermore, the elevation of Reddan to Ireland's first choice 9 shouldn't be because Sexton is playing well, it's because Reddan is playing well.

Btw, ave you not seen Tomas O leary play? Do you think his continious first name on the teamsheet was down to his skills, or his ability to fit the gameplan?

Also, what happened to the continual insistence that picking DOC + Poc together ahead of others players was vindicated because of their partnership? It's very easy to pick and choose your argument!

danthefan

Eoin Griffin

Benny Cake wrote: »

Ok, I'll start again. I fundamentally disagree with your assumption that Reddan & Sexton as a pairing were directly responsible for, as you put it, Irelands two best performances last season...

I also don't believe that the management should be picking players in pairs. Top class players like Murray can & will adapt to playing with someone different i.e. Sexton.

When analysing the available scrum halves, the selectors should have the skills to analyse an individuals performance in isolation and not depend on who they were playing with on the day. Munster & O'Gara play a very different game to Leinster & Sexton which makes comparing players in the skill positions like 9 & 10 difficult... The elevation of Reddan to Irelands first choice 9 by some posters here, simply because Sexton is playing well, is flawed.

Is that articulate enough for you?

Significantly better than a meaningless smilie, certainly.

I don't agree Murray is a top class player yet. Genia is a top class player.

As for the selectors, these are the jokers that picked TOL again and again and again and again when the dogs in the street could see how poor he was. They're the same selectors that insisted on playing their halfbacks in pairs, which you seem to disagree with.

As for elevating Reddan just because Sexton is playing, what are you talking about? You've just made that up.

Benny Cake

Luke Fitzgerald

michelledoh wrote: »

Exactly, you've got it in one
Munster and O Gara do play a different game, and Reddan suits Sextons game, and the gameplan which won us the English and Aus games, ie quick ball. Murray does not.

I would have thought their passing speed was pretty similar, its a difficult one to quantify so I accept you're entitled to your opinion. My own opinion is that Murray & Sexton could be epic... Murray worries the opposition around the fringes, his box kicking is good & he's excellent with ball in hand.

danthefan wrote: »

As for elevating Reddan just because Sexton is playing, what are you talking about? You've just made that up.

Maybe I wasn't totally clear in this, I meant that Sextons excellent performances are not entirely down to how Reddan is playing.

Tigerandahalf

I'd like to see McFadden at 12 but more importantly Darcy at 13. We always had two 13s playing in the centres. At least you would have some experience. Darcy has a great step and has a turn of foot as well as he showed against Italy in the WC. My only concern is that his distribution is not brilliant. I can remember many games where he was flinging out long overhit/inaccurate passes to the wings. I wouldn't go for O'Malley. For me he is way too small for international level. There are very few 13s of his size in the international game. I noticed some of the tries that Leinster have recently conceded have been down his channel, where he has been unable to stop the momentum of the attacker, drawing in other defenders.
There is no point rushing lads in either. Give them a game in the Wolfhounds and see how they respond. Whoever is picked may not be in the position at the end of the 6N. Wales and France away are two very tough games first up. It would be great to see an alternative to BOD emerge.

shuffol

Cant understand the hostility from some towards selecting Bowe at 13, whatever about selecting players out of position(comparisons with selecting Madigan at 9 and Ferris at 4 are ridiculous)

The fact is we're in a bind at the minute at 13, there are no outstanding candidates and practically none who've any real experience of international rugby there. Bowe has played there numerous times for the Ospreys though not much recently, was excellent in a lions test at 13 and is an all round class act of a player, even put in a top performance at FB for Ospreys in Thomond Par in the HC. We're out the door with wingers so we wont lose much if Bowe doesnt play there.

A good reason why not to play Bowe there though is that he may not be the best long term option and this could be an ideal 6N to introduce new players, but the idea of Bowe moving infield has more merits than people are making out

Tox56

Fergus McFadden

Benny Cake wrote: »

I would have thought their passing speed was pretty similar, its a difficult one to quantify so I accept you're entitled to your opinion. My own opinion is that Murray & Sexton could be epic... Murray worries the opposition around the fringes, his box kicking is good & he's excellent with ball in hand.


Maybe I wasn't totally clear in this, I meant that Sextons excellent performances are not entirely down to how Reddan is playing.

Murray isn't fast though, at least not as fast as Reddan. Reddan really helps to speed things up, you can see this when he comes on/is replaced by Boss, you really appreciate how fast Reddan is.

shuffol

Eoin Griffin

shuffol wrote: »

Cant understand the hostility from some towards selecting Bowe at 13, whatever about selecting players out of position(comparisons with selecting Madigan at 9 and Ferris at 4 are ridiculous)

I didn't compare them. I mentioned them in the same instance as examples of how we constantly ask for players to move from positions that they've learned for years, excelled at, and have experience at.

Much like how some would ask Bowe - a Lion's winger, Ireland's incumbent 14, one of our most important players offensively as he ensures we have pace out wide, his ability and discipline in chasing box kicks (which seem to form a huge part of our gameplan) is unmatched though impersonated by Trimble and Fitz, an out and out 14 basically - to play a position that removes his years of experience and education, and to be completely honest, a position that though he's played at for Ospreys, he's never really performed there for them...

shuffol

Deleted User wrote: »

I didn't compare them. I mentioned them in the same instance as examples of how we constantly ask for players to move from positions that they've learned for years, excelled at, and have experience at.

Much like how some would ask Bowe - a Lion's winger, Ireland's incumbent 14, one of our most important players offensively as he ensures we have pace out wide, his ability and discipline in chasing box kicks (which seem to form a huge part of our gameplan) is unmatched though impersonated by Trimble and Fitz, an out and out 14 basically - to play a position that removes his years of experience and education, and to be completely honest, a position that though he's played at for Ospreys, he's never really performed there for them...

The Madigan and Ferris examples arent the same though, people were talking about converting them full time from a position they're excellent in to one they've never played before. With Bowe we're talking about a temporary switch to a position he's familiar with and where there is a shortage of outstanding candidates, he has played there in a victorious lions test afterall.

Bowe is our best winger but the gap between him and Trimble there isnt massive, I can understand wanting to go with a longer term option but I'm not sure the likes of EOM and Griffin are ready for international rugby yet, maybe the summer tour might be a better time to introduce them

Brendan97

Fergus McFadden

It will be - 12.Darcy 13.Earls
.............- 12.Darcy 13.McFadden

It should be - 12.Fitz 13.EOM
................- 12.Darcy 13.EOM
................- 12.Darcy 13.Cave
................- 12.Fitz 13.Cave
................- 12.Darcy 13.Griffin
................- 12.Fitz 13.Griffin

Tox56

Fergus McFadden

shuffol wrote: »

The Madigan and Ferris examples arent the same though, people were talking about converting them full time from a position they're excellent in to one they've never played before. With Bowe we're talking about a temporary switch to a position he's familiar with and where there is a shortage of outstanding candidates, he has played there in a victorious lions test afterall.

Bowe is our best winger but the gap between him and Trimble there isnt massive, I can understand wanting to go with a longer term option but I'm not sure the likes of EOM and Griffin are ready for international rugby yet, maybe the summer tour might be a better time to introduce them

I disagree. I think we should start introducing these guys now instead of relying on a temporary solution with no long term benefit. BOD will be back before long, and then we won't get many chances to try out a new 13 who can take his place, so this should be the ideal time. I think we should be able to take a loss or two if there is a long term benefit, which I think there will be.

Brendan97

Fergus McFadden

if we come 4th in this six nations because we tried out a few new players it would be worth it if we then came 1st or 2nd next year

shuffol

First game will be key to decidng how we'll approach the rest of the championship, it'll be a safe selection at home to Wales, if we win that then we'll be chasing a triple crown and could be in the running for the champioship by the time we get to the final game against England so wouldnt expect much experimentation expect for the Italy game. Lose to Wales and away to France the following week and we'll be playing for pride only.

jacothelad

Eoin Griffin

Benny Cake wrote: »

Ok, I'll start again. I fundamentally disagree with your assumption that Reddan & Sexton as a pairing were directly responsible for, as you put it, Irelands two best performances last season...

I also don't believe that the management should be picking players in pairs. Top class players like Murray can & will adapt to playing with someone different i.e. Sexton.

Murray is nowhere near being a top class player. He is slow in several facets of the game, notably in thought and he goes for the glory break too often up a blind alley. He might become a good player. He might not.

When analysing the available scrum halves, the selectors should have the skills to analyse an individuals performance in isolation and not depend on who they were playing with on the day. Munster & O'Gara play a very different game to Leinster & Sexton which makes comparing players in the skill positions like 9 & 10 difficult... The elevation of Reddan to Irelands first choice 9 by some posters here, simply because Sexton is playing well, is flawed.

Is that articulate enough for you?

Reddan has been Ireland's #1 scrum half for quite a few years. Murray's 'elevation' by some posters here has nothing to do with which is the better player. His performance and that of ROG v. Wales was dull and sluggish.

Brendan97 wrote: »

if we come 4th in this six nations because we tried out a few new players it would be worth it if we then came 1st or 2nd next year

Not in my book. The 'new' players should be tried out in the Rabo12, Wolfhounds and Heineken Cup. Not in the 6 Nations or the pages of provincial newspapers.

What about if we come 4th by trying out new players and then come 4th or 5th next year? Every international tournament game should be competed for by the best players in their positions, not some with a few others shuffled around on some daft whim ..such as Earls/Bowe/Fitz at 13.

tolosenc

Fergus McFadden

People are deluded if they think Deccie won't give ROG 2 or 3 games, won't give TOL at least 2 starts, won't play Earls at 13, will at any stage other than by having his hand forced get the half back combo right, won't start DOC, won't have Leamy somewhere in the squad.

Very surprised that Earls got any votes, really. He really shouldn't be playing at 13.

NikNak8

Luke Fitzgerald

This forum makes me laugh, EOM is over hyped poor defence has been shown up already on a number of occasions. Earls is proven international class. I am confident that he will have a great six nations if given the chance to stay at 13. He has played well for munster, and gets better each game. 2nd centre needs to have good hands and be a finisher. A lot of the international class 13s started off life as wingers.
Murray is different class than Reddan, better kicker, better tackler, has just as good a pass and is stronger with the ability to break. Reddans pass may be quicker but he is too one dimensionable. Good to bring on when opposition are tiring. (The reason Boss starts Leinsters away games)

Seph503

Fergus McFadden

NikNak8 wrote: »

This forum makes me laugh, EOM is over hyped poor defence has been shown up already on a number of occasions. Earls is proven international class. I am confident that he will have a great six nations if given the chance to stay at 13. He has played well for munster, and gets better each game. 2nd centre needs to have good hands and be a finisher. A lot of the international class 13s started off life as wingers.
Murray is different class than Reddan, better kicker, better tackler, has just as good a pass and is stronger with the ability to break. Reddans pass may be quicker but he is too one dimensionable. Good to bring on when opposition are tiring.

Earls is proven international class on the wing, not necessarily in centre.

You say O'Malley is over rated, then proceed to hype up Murray. Reddan has been playing extremely well for a long time now and should be our starting #9 irrespective of which out-half is playing IMO.

Podge_irl

Eoin Griffin

NikNak8 wrote: »

2nd centre needs to have good hands and be a finisher. A lot of the international class 13s started off life as wingers.

Very few international class 13s started off as wingers. Earls has quite possibly never passed a ball in professional rugby. It's also silly pointing out EOM's occasional problems tackling as evidence for Earls' inclusion as Earls likely won't even be in the right place to attempt a tackle.

He is a winger. That's it. Only about 10 people in the country think he is a centre. Unfortunately one of them is Kidney.

Cpt_Blackbeard

Luke Fitzgerald

Podge_irl wrote: »

Very few international class 13s started off as wingers. Earls has quite possibly never passed a ball in professional rugby. It's also silly pointing out EOM's occasional problems tackling as evidence for Earls' inclusion as Earls likely won't even be in the right place to attempt a tackle.

He is a winger. That's it. Only about 10 people in the country think he is a centre. Unfortunately one of them is Kidney.

Every coach he has ever had up to provincial, international and Lions midweek level has rated him as a centre. I'd personally take that as pretty great evidence that he is, at worst, a decent centre at the highest levels.

I'd agree with people saying that all the current evidence points to him being a better winger than centre but, that doesn't make him a terrible centre.

Benny Cake

Luke Fitzgerald

Seph503 wrote: »

Earls is proven international class on the wing, not necessarily in centre.

How exactly does one become "proven international class" in the centre without getting an extended run in the position? Earls will in all likelihood start 3 games at 13 for Munster before the 6 nations, lets see how he goes and re-evaluate him after the Northampton game...

tolosenc

Fergus McFadden

NikNak8 wrote: »

This forum makes me laugh, EOM is over hyped poor defence has been shown up already on a number of occasions. Earls is proven international class. I am confident that he will have a great six nations if given the chance to stay at 13. He has played well for munster, and gets better each game. 2nd centre needs to have good hands and be a finisher. A lot of the international class 13s started off life as wingers.
Murray is different class than Reddan, better kicker, better tackler, has just as good a pass and is stronger with the ability to break. Reddans pass may be quicker but he is too one dimensionable. Good to bring on when opposition are tiring. (The reason Boss starts Leinsters away games)

Ah yes, Keith Earls' famed prowess in defence... Oh wait...

Keith Earls' international class? Dubious, given that he has an all round poor skillset (passing, kicking, playmaking, defensive positioning and tackling are all areas he needs a considerably amount of work on - and that's too many weaknesses).

I'd argue that a 13 doesn't need to be a good finisher, but I agree that he needs good hands. Shame about Earls having poor hands.

Name for me some international 13s that started off on the wings.

O'Malley isn't poor in defence... Did you see him in Clermont?

Murray is a different class to Reddan, true. Just it's not a better one. Murray looks a lot better than he is playing at Munster, with TOL as his only competition. He is slow. His kicking isn't better than Reddan's, and he is no more able or likley to break than Reddan.

----

It's fairly clear that we are not starting to build for the next World Cup yet, so why not D'arcy at 12 and Reddan at 9?

NikNak8

Luke Fitzgerald

Benny Cake wrote: »

How exactly does one become "proven international class" in the centre without getting an extended run in the position? Earls will in all likelihood start 3 games at 13 for Munster before the 6 nations, lets see how he goes and re-evaluate him after the Northampton game...

I agree entirely, I said proven international class. Not at centre but I believe when given the chance he will.
Earls showed great hands in the last game in the build up for the try. His positional awareness has improved greatly and will get better with more gametime.

tolosenc

Fergus McFadden

Cpt_Blackbeard wrote: »

Every coach he has ever had up to provincial, international and Lions midweek level has rated him as a centre. I'd personally take that as pretty great evidence that he is, at worst, a decent centre at the highest levels.

So... Kidney, McGahan, Kidney and McGeechan (or was someone else in charge in the midweek games?).

Kidney is Kidney.
Does McGahan rate him or is he under orders to play him there?
Whoever was in for the Lions mustn't have been watching him play. He was very poor in one of the games and not markedly better in the other 2 or 3 he played.

NikNak8

Luke Fitzgerald

Centres that started as wingers there are many Tahna Umanga is one you may have heard of!

Cpt_Blackbeard

Luke Fitzgerald

NikNak8 wrote: »

Centres that started as wingers there are many Tahna Umanga is one you may have heard of!

That's an irrelevant point as, Earls started as a centre anyway.

NikNak8

Luke Fitzgerald

Of course 13 needs to be a good finisher, who is Irelands top try scorer?

irishbucsfan

Eoin Griffin

I'[d love someone to give me an example of just one top performance that Tommy Bowe has put in at 13.

While he hasn't been nearly as good at 13 (and now doesn''t play there at all it seems) as he is in his rightful position of 14, we have Cave, O'Malley and Griffin all playing well at 13 in the Heineken Cup.

Why on EARTH would you select Tommy Bowe at 13 is beyond me. I'd have him over Earls in a second, but there are so many other options. Why take your best winger and move him out of position, only to be left replacing him with a weaker player (how many fit right wingers do we even have who could fill in? We'd have to start one of Earls or Fitzgerald out of position).

Just doesn't make any sense at all. I really question wheter people who think Bowe should play 13 have watched him there at all. He's not a natural 13, which is absolutely key and is why McFadden shouldn't play there either.

O'Malley and Cave are both natural 13s with experience of playing at a high level and Griffin has serious talent (although will definitely be ignored).

irishbucsfan

Eoin Griffin

NikNak8 wrote: »

Of course 13 needs to be a good finisher, who is Irelands top try scorer?

Being a good finisher on the wing doesn't translate directly to being a good finisher at 13 at all. It's two different skills.

NikNak8

Luke Fitzgerald

NikNak8 wrote: »

Centres that started as wingers there are many Tahna Umanga is one you may have heard of!

I was responding to Tolsnec