2011 Census enumerator edited 'my religion' when collecting my form

gj777

Hi,
I know what some are thinking already and yes: it's the 'Jedi thing' ...BUT what I wrote on my form is not the point - I was just informed that when the enumerator collected our form back last April, they opened it up, checked that section and actually scribbled out my entry because I wrote Jedi. Apparently he mumbled 'we don't allow that anymore' or something!

Are they allowed to do this? I would be surprised if this is not an invasion of privacy of some kind. Honestly I'm not sure if we are even legally obliged to fill the census out at all, but if we are then surely the provided info can't be edited by anyone other than the person who's name is at the top of the page? From the signed declaration I believe we must be accurate - so surely that doesn't give the right to anyone to dispute my entries with out discussion, especially the only subjective entry: what religion I consider myself?

This is really an academic concern about what the enumerator can do with forms, I'm not concerned with whether one is actually a practising member of whatever faith and so what one 'should' write on the forms. Which is basically related to why I put Jedi on my forms.
If anyone cares about why I do it I can tell them, but that's not my point here.
I'm not trying to defend religious practice or establish Jedi as anything, I'm just shocked that apparently the enumerator knows what religion I am and has the right to correct how I represent myself.
I can understand that the counters might get a bit sick of it, but that's not my problem. To me the Jedi thing is a kind of alternative to a typical vote abstention or vote spoiling, and I should have the right to do that ...right?

Anyone have any insights into this?

Thanks all, live long and... wait, no.

Edit: according to the census.ie site, yes we're legally obliged to complete the form.

psychward

gj777 wrote: »

Thanks all, live long and... wait, no.

You may have meant :

May the force be with you

Response: And also with you


Seriously I think the census is legally compulsory. Many people have a problem with this.

coylemj

psychward wrote: »

You may have meant :

May the force be with you

Response: And also with you

No, the response is now 'and with your spirit' - changes to the liturgy implemented recently. Get with the program or pick a different religion!

MadsL

No, the response is now 'and with your spirit' - changes to the liturgy implemented recently. Get with the program or pick a different religion!

They changed the mass to include "May the force be with you" :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:


Oh, wait...

MrStuffins

It's Jan 2012.

Maybe he thought you were taking the piss because you were handing in your census form 8 months late!

coylemj

gj777 wrote: »

Are they allowed to do this? I would be surprised if this is not an invasion of privacy of some kind. Honestly I'm not sure if we are even legally obliged to fill the census out at all, but if we are then surely the provided info can't be edited by anyone other than the person who's name is at the top of the page? From the signed declaration I believe we must be accurate - so surely that doesn't give the right to anyone to dispute my entries with out discussion, especially the only subjective entry: what religion I consider myself?

It goes something like this:

They decide on a breakpoint for religion meaning that if something like 99% (the breakpoint) of the population falls into (say) 12 different religions (plus atheists) then they make a decision that everyone who doesn't tick one of those 12 religions and who doesn't tick 'none' is categorised as 'other', you obviously fall into this category.

The alternative is that they would have to deal with 101 different religions which would increase the expense of processing the census returns and it would produce a list of religions as long as your arm with only a handful of people claiming allegiance to each of them. Statistically this data would be worthless as clearly (using your case as an example) very few of them would be bona fide religions in the accepted meaning of the word.

They have to draw the line somewhere and you were below it so I suspect the enumerator changed your religion from 'Jedi' to 'Other'.

Is it a breach of privacy? Hardly, since the forms will be locked away for 100 years.

oppenheimer1

gj777 wrote: »

Hi,
I know what some are thinking already and yes: it's the 'Jedi thing' ...BUT what I wrote on my form is not the point - I was just informed that when the enumerator collected our form back last April, they opened it up, checked that section and actually scribbled out my entry because I wrote Jedi. Apparently he mumbled 'we don't allow that anymore' or something!

Are they allowed to do this? I would be surprised if this is not an invasion of privacy of some kind. Honestly I'm not sure if we are even legally obliged to fill the census out at all, but if we are then surely the provided info can't be edited by anyone other than the person who's name is at the top of the page? From the signed declaration I believe we must be accurate - so surely that doesn't give the right to anyone to dispute my entries with out discussion, especially the only subjective entry: what religion I consider myself?

This is really an academic concern about what the enumerator can do with forms, I'm not concerned with whether one is actually a practising member of whatever faith and so what one 'should' write on the forms. Which is basically related to why I put Jedi on my forms.
If anyone cares about why I do it I can tell them, but that's not my point here.
I'm not trying to defend religious practice or establish Jedi as anything, I'm just shocked that apparently the enumerator knows what religion I am and has the right to correct how I represent myself.
I can understand that the counters might get a bit sick of it, but that's not my problem. To me the Jedi thing is a kind of alternative to a typical vote abstention or vote spoiling, and I should have the right to do that ...right?

Anyone have any insights into this?

Thanks all, live long and... wait, no.

Edit: according to the census.ie site, yes we're legally obliged to complete the form.

He knows you're not Jedi and therefore lied when you signed the form at the back stating it was completed in honesty and truth. You were taking the piss with the census, which depends on honesty of all participants to make it worthwhile.

If you wanted to abstain why didn't you tick the box "none/no religion"? Would that not have been the honest answer?

MrStuffins

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

He knows you're not Jedi and therefore lied when you signed the form at the back stating it was completed in honesty and truth. You were taking the piss with the census, which depends on honesty of all participants to make it worthwhile.

If you wanted to abstain why didn't you tick the box "none/no religion"? Would that not have been the honest answer?

How did he know his religion isn't Jedi? Who is the enumerator to decide the beliefs of the invidual citizen?

What if I was to take someone's form and say "Hang on.... Catholic? You believe that a man in the sky sent his son back to earth 2000 years ago who became a zombie and proceeded to walk on water and perform miricles? Ballocks! I'm changing this!"?? Would you still disagree then?

How do you know it was the enumerator?

On a sidenote the Census is actually a vital element of any democracy since representation is based on population and proper provision of services and the drafting of social policies are, in a large part, influenced by census data. Acting the bollox and putting "Jedi" down for your religion and then getting all full of righteous indignation when the CSO ignore your bull**** answer is pretty lame.

Cliffs: Fill in the form properly.

MrStuffins

MrStuffins wrote: »

How did he know his religion isn't Jedi? Who is the enumerator to decide the beliefs of the invidual citizen?

What if I was to take someone's form and say "Hang on.... Catholic? You believe that a man in the sky sent his son back to earth 2000 years ago who became a zombie and proceeded to walk on water and perform miricles? Ballocks! I'm changing this!"?? Would you still disagree then?

Strawman says what?

coylemj

MrStuffins wrote: »

How did he know his religion isn't Jedi? Who is the enumerator to decide the beliefs of the invidual citizen?

What if I was to take someone's form and say "Hang on.... Catholic? You believe that a man in the sky sent his son back to earth 2000 years ago who became a zombie and proceeded to walk on water and perform miricles? Ballocks! I'm changing this!"?? Would you still disagree then?

It's about statistics, it is not a judgement on the merits or otherwise of individual religions.

If you don't fall into the top 99% (including atheists) then you are 'other', end of story.

Victor

Oh, its it possible that people are winding you up?

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

He knows you're not Jedi and therefore lied when you signed the form at the back stating it was completed in honesty and truth.

It is an offence to tamper with a census form.

johnnyskeleton

Victor wrote: »

It is an offence to tamper with a census form.

what about where you don't physically tamper with it but use a Jedi mind trick to make the enumerator do it? I think the OP should be aware that it was not the enumerator who wanted it to be changed, it was the Jedi council.

So, probelms has he with this issue, with them he should take it up.

MagicSean

Victor wrote: »

Oh, its it possible that people are winding you up?It is an offence to tamper with a census form.

And also an offence to lie on it isn't it?

28064212

MagicSean wrote: »

And also an offence to lie on it isn't it?

Depends on how you define the terms "religion" and "Jedi" (and "lie" I guess). The Jedi religion can be taken as a declaration of no or other religion, but you're specifically pointing out the inherent flaw in the system.

But the most important part...

MrStuffins wrote: »

It's Jan 2012.

gj777

Well, I took the (massive) effort of emailing the cso about this to see what would happen and I received a reply:
---
In response to your email regarding Question 12 - religion - on the census
form, there have been a number of internet campaigns urging the public to
write the term “Jedi” on their Census form as their religion. The “Jedi”
census campaign also got attention in the media. Our Census enumerator
would have been aware of this. In the circumstances our enumerator should
have asked you to clarify your religion and got you to amend your census
form if necessary. We have checked your Census form and we can see that the
enumerator struck through “Jedi” but has not asked you to put in an
amendment. I must apologise for the Enumerators lack of diligence. As a
result of your email we have reinstated Jedi as your response on your
Census form.

Thank you for taking time to contact us,

Kind regards
......
Census Field Management
Swords
Co Dublin

---

So it seems that the enumerator was in fact wrong to 'correct' my entry without my permission. I replied and expressed my appreciation for respecting my right to represent myself as I choose. I also pointed out that how I came influenced to the decision is not really relevant (I've only ever heard of this thing through word of mouth anyway, and I'm sure there's an online campaign or two for other religions).

Again, the merits of entering Jedi as a religion is not my point here - some seem to be hung on that aspect. Whether it's a valid religion or not is a debate that belongs in a philosophy post. In my humble opinion it's as valid as any other entry (part of the reason I put it in, and I'm not an atheist btw). If anyone is bothered debating that aspect with me I'm up for a laugh. Either way, for this topic, assume that being a member of a religion called Jedi is valid and isn't dishonest - sorry if I wasn't clear the first post.

If I am 'seriously', 'acting the bollox' with a question on the form that is disputable then fine, any reasonably minded enumerator can go ahead and change my form without my permission, circumstances allowing. e.g. if they are running late and I wrote the wrong door number on my address for example, they can clearly see I made an error. Or if I wrote Buckingham palace or other such bolxry. But since religion is a gaping wide grey area, then editing without consulting is bolxry in the first.
Also if the cso don't want to count the 'minority religious groups' for logistical or bugetry reasons, then why have an option to provide the info at all? I wouldn't hold it against them if they left it as an 'Other' tickbox without the blank line, especially if ninty something % fall in the rest of the groups. Additionally what parts of the info they count and how they evaluate it after it's collected is not under my control (I'm not really an 'every Sunday' Jedi), so if they want to ignore it in the end there's not much I can do. It's the audacity of 'correcting' what is acceptable and what isn't that has me ranting.

In any case, it may seem trivial to some, but I'm a fan of little moral victories; taking care of the details means the big picture takes care of itself. I'm sure the christians had a hard time getting accepted when they were being asked the same thing not too long ago. Atleast Jedi's have their book made into a decent film

Victor

gj777 wrote: »

We have checked your Census form and we can see that the
enumerator struck through “Jedi” but has not asked you to put in an
amendment.

How do they know its you? They aren't allowed disclose individual information on a census form.

Tayla

When they came to collect my families census form the enumerator started reading through it and quizzing my OH on his answers. She actually didn't mention anything about the fact that Jedi was written on it but started questioning him on other aspects.

Who do they think they are?

Victor

Victor wrote: »

How do they know its you? They aren't allowed disclose individual information on a census form.

The CSO just changed a Census answer based on someone emailing them and then they went and checked the physical form out of the million or so they received and changed it?

I'm not necessarily doubting that she's telling the truth just I'd be pretty annoyed if the CSO did that.

Victor

Deleted User wrote: »

.. then they went and checked the physical form ...

No, they looked at the scanned image on their computer.

MagicSean

Well done op. you've probably ensured that enumerator doesn't get hired next time around just so you can have a laugh with your census. I hope the attention you've brought on yourself results in your prosecution for lying on your form.

28064212

MagicSean wrote: »

Well done op. you've probably ensured that enumerator doesn't get hired next time around just so you can have a laugh with your census. I hope the attention you've brought on yourself results in your prosecution for lying on your form.

The enumerator shouldn't be hired again if they think it's ok to change someone else's census answers

MagicSean

28064212 wrote: »

The enumerator shouldn't be hired again if they think it's ok to change someone else's census answers

Sure, and the op should be prosecuted for lying on the form.

28064212

MagicSean wrote: »

Sure, and the op should be prosecuted for lying on the form.

How has he lied? The question on religion is entirely self-defined. If the OP could be prosecuted for lying, so could every single "Catholic" who doesn't go to mass anymore

Jesus Shaves

I put "I follow the beliefs and teachings of the great Darren"
I didn't lie

MagicSean

28064212 wrote: »

How has he lied? The question on religion is entirely self-defined. If the OP could be prosecuted for lying, so could every single "Catholic" who doesn't go to mass anymore

A catholic will have been baptised into the religion so that's not really a good comparison.

MagicSean

darokane wrote: »

I put "I follow the beliefs and teachings of the great Darren"
I didn't lie

How did you even fit that in?

28064212

MagicSean wrote: »

A catholic will have been baptised into the religion so that's not really a good comparison.

So now people who were baptised will be prosecuted for not answering Catholic, since there's no way to actually leave the RCC?

Jesus Shaves

MagicSean wrote: »

How did you even fit that in?

tiny writing

MagicSean

28064212 wrote: »

So now people who were baptised will be prosecuted for not answering Catholic, since there's no way to actually leave the RCC?

Yes there is. You can say "I'm not going to be Catholic" and there you have it. Just so were clear here. I have no problem with someone claiming they are Jedi if they do believe in the force and the presence of mediclorians. However when mindless sheep put it down as some kind of rebellion against nothing but harm the overall benefit of the census.

28064212

MagicSean wrote: »

Yes there is. You can say "I'm not going to be Catholic" and there you have it.

So you self-define yourself as not Catholic. What if you still go to mass at Christmas time, or for weddings, funerals and baptisms? If you put down atheist, are you lying then? What if you don't believe in God, but have been baptised, are you lying when you say Catholic?

The question is the only one on the census that is entirely defined by the person answering it. It is impossible to lie on it.

MagicSean wrote: »

Just so were clear here. I have no problem with someone claiming they are Jedi if they do believe in the force and the presence of mediclorians. However when mindless sheep put it down as some kind of rebellion against nothing but harm the overall benefit of the census.

You're assuming the Jedi answer means they follow the Jedi way as depicted in the Star Wars film. To many, the Jedi answer is a statement that they believe asking a self-defined question in a census is irrelevant, or that it is inherently flawed. That is, those are the central beliefs of their 'religion'