2011 Census enumerator edited 'my religion' when collecting my form

Thephantomsmask

MagicSean wrote: »

A catholic will have been baptised into the religion so that's not really a good comparison.

Babies are hardly asked to provide consent before having water doused upon them so people generally aren't entering the religion by choice and unfortunately, one cannot leave once joined due to the Vatican removing the ability to excommunicate.

MagicSean

28064212 wrote: »

So you self-define yourself as not Catholic. What if you still go to mass at Christmas time, or for weddings, funerals and baptisms? If you put down atheist, are you lying then? What if you don't believe in God, but have been baptised, are you lying when you say Catholic?

The question is the only one on the census that is entirely defined by the person answering it. It is impossible to lie on it.


You're assuming the Jedi answer means they follow the Jedi way as depicted in the Star Wars film. To many, the Jedi answer is a statement that they believe asking a self-defined question in a census is irrelevant, or that it is inherently flawed. That is, those are the central beliefs of their 'religion'

Catholicism is a system of beliefs based on the belief in some sort of deity.

What you describe as Jedi is a political view.

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

Babies are hardly asked to provide consent before having water doused upon them so people generally aren't entering the religion by choice and unfortunately, one cannot leave once joined due to the Vatican removing the ability to excommunicate.

Parents are assumed to make decisions for their children. That is why children are able to have surgery and medical treatment without their doctors being prosecuted for assault. You cannot leave a church because you don't belong to them, it is a belief system only.

28064212

MagicSean wrote: »

Catholicism is a system of beliefs based on the belief in some sort of deity.

What you describe as Jedi is a political view.

What's the deity of Buddhism? Scientology? You don't have to look very hard for 'religions' that stretch that definition.

The answer to the religion question is entirely self-defined. Any answer is correct (as well as no answer)

Thephantomsmask

MagicSean wrote: »

Parents are assumed to make decisions for their children. That is why children are able to have surgery and medical treatment without their doctors being prosecuted for assault. You cannot leave a church because you don't belong to them, it is a belief system only.

You posted that catholics are baptised in response to somebody asking could a catholic be prosecuted for lying for not attending mass versus someone lying for "choosing" Jedi. Parents make decisions for their children so yes, a lot of catholics are members by their parents choice, not THEIR choice as I said so your post that the two were not a fair comparison is flawed, the majority of catholics had their faith, or lack there of, forced upon them. You will also find that the Vatican considers all baptised catholics, whether lapsed or self defining as another religion, to still be members of the church. All avenues of defection from the catholic church were removed by the Vatican ergo people cannot officially renounce a faith that was forced upon them. I can claim I am an atheist all I want but according to the fella over in Rome I'm still one of them.

Tayla

MagicSean wrote: »

Just so were clear here. I have no problem with someone claiming they are Jedi if they do believe in the force and the presence of mediclorians.

That doesn't make sense because an awful lot of people who write down Catholic as their religion do not believe in it at all, yet you're saying you should only write yedi down if you actually believe in the force etc, do you not have a problem when Catholics only in name choose Catholic as their religion, do they not have to actually believe in it just because you and the state consider it to be a 'proper' religion?

I don't even know if there's a name for what I currently believe in, yet we're supposed to choose a religion that fits into their group of acceptable religions?

MagicSean wrote: »

However when mindless sheep put it down as some kind of rebellion against nothing but harm the overall benefit of the census.

Mindless sheep...a bit like when people who are Catholic only on the census form or when it comes to christening their babies so that they can have a day out.

MagicSean

28064212 wrote: »

What's the deity of Buddhism? Scientology? You don't have to look very hard for 'religions' that stretch that definition.

The answer to the religion question is entirely self-defined. Any answer is correct (as well as no answer)

They may stretch the definition but they still fall under it. The belief that a census question is wrong does not fall under any possible definition of religion.

Thephantomsmask wrote: »

You posted that catholics are baptised in response to somebody asking could a catholic be prosecuted for lying for not attending mass versus someone lying for "choosing" Jedi. Parents make decisions for their children so yes, a lot of catholics are members by their parents choice, not THEIR choice as I said so your post that the two were not a fair comparison is flawed, the majority of catholics had their faith, or lack there of, forced upon them. You will also find that the Vatican considers all baptised catholics, whether lapsed or self defining as another religion, to still be members of the church. All avenues of defection from the catholic church were removed by the Vatican ergo people cannot officially renounce a faith that was forced upon them. I can claim I am an atheist all I want but according to the fella over in Rome I'm still one of them.

Who cares what the fella over in Rome thinks? If you do then maybe you should consider wether you have in fact fully renounced your faith.

From a legal perspective, if you were charged with lying on the census by saying you were a Catholic when but you never go to mass then a baptismal cert would be a strong defense. If you were charged with lying by saying you were not a Catholic even though you were baptised then you could easily point to your lack of practice as a show of you no longer being a Catholic. On the other hand, if we were charged with lying by saying you were a Jedi then the only proof you could provide would be your Star Wars collection which, as Thepahntommask has pointed out, would not be acceptable as the Jedi religion has apparently got no connection to Star Wars.

Tayla wrote: »

That doesn't make sense because an awful lot of people who write down Catholic as their religion do not believe in it at all, yet you're saying you should only write yedi down if you actually believe in the force etc, do you not have a problem when Catholics only in name choose Catholic as their religion, do they not have to actually believe in it just because you and the state consider it to be a 'proper' religion?

I do have a problem with it. It's a much more legally defensible claim though.

Tayla wrote: »

I don't even know if there's a name for what I currently believe in, yet we're supposed to choose a religion that fits into their group of acceptable religions?

Agnostic

Tayla wrote: »

Mindless sheep...a bit like when people who are Catholic only on the census form or when it comes to christening their babies so that they can have a day out.

yes, exactly like that.

Tayla

MagicSean wrote: »

Agnostic

I love how you just presume that without any facts at all about what I actually believe in.

MagicSean wrote: »

yes, exactly like that.

Glad you agree!

Tayla

Tayla wrote: »

I don't even know if there's a name for what I currently believe in, yet we're supposed to choose a religion that fits into their group of acceptable religions?

Therefore Jedi was a lie since you, by your own admission, aren't practicing a faith identifiable by the moniker "Jedi".

Tayla

Deleted User wrote: »

Therefore Jedi was a lie since you, by your own admission, aren't practicing a faith identifiable by the moniker "Jedi".

Mine didn't say Jedi, my partners did and who gave the enumerator the right to read through it and start questioning parts of it.

MagicSean

Tayla wrote: »

Mine didn't say Jedi, my partners did and who gave the enumerator the right to read through it and start questioning parts of it.

We've established the enumerator was wrong and he'll probably be fired. We're discussing the legality of lying about your religion on the form now.

Tayla

MagicSean wrote: »

We've established the enumerator was wrong and he'll probably be fired. We're discussing the legality of lying about your religion on the form now.

Oh are we? You've decided that the thread is to take this new course have you? Unbelievable!!

Well i'm still discussing the fact that the enumerator breached my partners privacy and started quizzing him on questions she had no right to know the answer to.

28064212

Deleted User wrote: »

Therefore Jedi was a lie since you, by your own admission, aren't practicing a faith identifiable by the moniker "Jedi".

What if Tayla defines the belief:

Tayla wrote: »

I don't even know if there's a name for what I currently believe in, yet we're supposed to choose a religion that fits into their group of acceptable religions?

as their interpretation of the Jedi religion?

Can you give me a definition of "Catholic" that covers every person that put down Catholic on the census? I'll knock off the obvious ones first:

• Belief in any sort of deity
• Goes to mass
• Baptised

None of that list are a requirement to put down Catholic on the census form

MagicSean

Tayla wrote: »

Oh are we? You've decided that the thread is to take this new course have you? Unbelievable!!

Well i'm still discussing the fact that the enumerator breached my partners privacy and started quizzing him on questions she had no right to know the answer to.

What do you want to discuss about it? It's already been dealt with. The census people wrote back saying the enumerator was in the wrong.

28064212 wrote: »

What if Tayla defines the belief:

as their interpretation of the Jedi religion?

Why would she do that when that is not a religion?

28064212 wrote: »

Can you give me a definition of "Catholic" that covers every person that put down Catholic on the census? I'll knock off the obvious ones first:

• Belief in any sort of deity
• Goes to mass
• Baptised

None of that list are a requirement to put down Catholic on the census form

Exactly. There is no requirement to put down Catholic. That does not mean there is a right to put down whatever you want.

28064212

MagicSean wrote: »

Why would she do that when that is not a religion?

Define religion (a definition that won't make a sizable minority liable to be fined based on their census answers)

MagicSean wrote: »

Exactly. There is no requirement to put down Catholic. That does not mean there is a right to put down whatever you want.

You misunderstood what I said. What definition of Catholic covers every person who put down Catholic in the census?

28064212

28064212 wrote: »

Define religion (a definition that won't make a sizable minority liable to be fined based on their census answers)

It's what the person reasonably and with good faith believes themselves to be for the purposes of the question.

No person could reasonably believe themselves to be a Jedi therefore anyone putting down that answer would prima facie be guilty of an offence.

Obviously that's just my own opinion of what a reasonable test for it would be but I think it satisfies all the necessary criteria.

28064212

Deleted User wrote: »

It's what the person reasonably and with good faith believes themselves to be for the purposes of the question.

No person could reasonably believe themselves to be a Jedi therefore anyone putting down that answer would prima facie be guilty of an offence.

You're making the same assumption I pointed out earlier in the thread, assuming that "Jedi" means believing in the tenets stated in the Star Wars films. Instead, it can just be a belief that a question on religion in the census is absurd, or that it's just another word for a particular subset of agnostics, or that people should be allowed state whatever religion they want.

zuroph

Deleted User wrote: »

It's what the person reasonably and with good faith believes themselves to be for the purposes of the question.

No person could reasonably believe themselves to be a Jedi therefore anyone putting down that answer would prima facie be guilty of an offence.

Obviously that's just my own opinion of what a reasonable test for it would be but I think it satisfies all the necessary criteria.

My personal religious belief is that we all add to a "force" with prayer and faith, and that that "force" rewards/aids us when we need it most, a sort of collective share pot of support, to be dipped into as needed. Now, I also believe that everyones religious belief is their own personal belief and is intrinsically different from person to person. But I cant fit all that in the box, so "Jedi" would be the closest fit.

Consider the Catholic church no longer let people leave, pending a policy review, anyone who was catholic but now considers themselves atheist, could also be deemed to be lying, depending on whether you give the catholic church any right to hold onto "ownership" of the person.

knird evol

With all these moral dilemas I think you should ask yourself
the simple question 'what would Luke Skywalker have done'?

Tayla

MagicSean wrote: »

What do you want to discuss about it? It's already been dealt with. The census people wrote back saying the enumerator was in the wrong.

I'm not the OP, this is a seperate issue but related to the theme of the thread which is basically the enumerators abusing their position. The enumerator who picked up the census form quizzed my partner on his answers, including the medical answers.

MagicSean wrote: »

Why would she do that when that is not a religion?

To you it's not, to some it is, I could argue that the Catholic church isn't a religion either but here is not the place for it.

28064212

28064212 wrote: »

You're making the same assumption I pointed out earlier in the thread, assuming that "Jedi" means believing in the tenets stated in the Star Wars films. Instead, it can just be a belief that a question on religion in the census is absurd, or that it's just another word for a particular subset of agnostics, or that people should be allowed state whatever religion they want.

That's what the "no religion" option was for. Religion implying an organised religion of course.

If you have a problem with the census forms then write a letter to the CSO or your TD. The census is an extremely important document and should be filled out properly. Otherwise we can't rely on the data collected and that effects things such as whether or not parts of Swords are in one electoral district or another and what provisions should be made for expanding populations.

Religion is a thing whether you, I or Boba Fett like it or not. It's a reasonable question to ask because we believe in religious equality in this country (these days) and the free expression of that religion, something our President so excellently demonstrated at his inauguration, and in order to allow proper long term social planning we need to know who actually lives here and, among a great number of other things, what religious faith, or not, they believe in.

Jedi has a plain definition. In fact it is a registered trademark. Therefore when anyone puts it down on the census form that is the plain understanding of the word that someone should take from it. I can't put down that I have 11 children and then decide that the number 11 isn't actually the number that people think it is but rather my way of making the important social point that the Government has underfunded childcare in this country. Words have meanings and Jedi has a very well defined one.

28064212

Deleted User wrote: »

That's what the "no religion" option was for. Religion implying an organised religion of course.

Is Scientology an organised religion or a cult? Is Buddhism an organised religion or a set of beliefs? Wicca? Paganism?

And what was the freetext area for, if not to encompass beliefs that aren't covered in the other boxes?

Deleted User wrote: »

If you have a problem with the census forms then write a letter to the CSO or your TD. The census is an extremely important document and should be filled out properly. Otherwise we can't rely on the data collected and that effects things such as whether or not parts of Swords are in one electoral district or another and what provisions should be made for expanding populations.

I have no problem with it. I have a problem with someone calling for prosecution based on something so incredibly ill-defined and individual as religion.

Deleted User wrote: »

Jedi has a plain definition. In fact it is a registered trademark. Therefore when anyone puts it down on the census form that is the plain understanding of the word that someone should take from it. I can't put down that I have 11 children and then decide that the number 11 isn't actually the number that people think it is but rather my way of making the important social point that the Government has underfunded childcare in this country. Words have meanings and Jedi has a very well defined one.

Catholicism has an even more well-defined and narrow meaning than Jedi. Are we going to prosecute the "a la carte" Catholics?

28064212

28064212 wrote: »

Is Scientology an organised religion or a cult? Is Buddhism an organised religion or a set of beliefs? Wicca? Paganism?

And what was the freetext area for, if not to encompass beliefs that aren't covered in the other boxes?

Jedi isn't a belief. It's a registered trademark. It's the equivalent of putting Coca Cola in there.

28064212 wrote: »

I have no problem with it. I have a problem with someone calling for prosecution based on something so incredibly ill-defined and individual as religion.

It is ill-defined and it is incredibly personal. However one can reasonably assume that commercially designed fictional entities (and don't get cynical about other organised religions as that is just a straw man, "Jedi" comes exclusively from the commercial realm and there is a qualitative difference between it and organised religions) fall outside that remit. Beyond that the person who puts it down, even if they are doing it to make a social point, is consciously lying which is, after all, the fundamental element of the offence.

28064212 wrote: »

Catholicism has an even more well-defined and narrow meaning than Jedi. Are we going to prosecute the "a la carte" Catholics?

Catholic isn't a registered trademark. There is also more than one type of Catholicism. Whether the person who doesn't believe in the trinity also thinks he is a Catholic doesn't matter for the purposes of the offence so long as he honestly believes that he is a Catholic. The offence isn't one of theological ambiguity, it's one of consciously providing misleading information on the census form.

By the by I am an atheist personally and care not a jot for the Catholic Church however I do believe in civic responsibility and lying on an extremely important form that does little more than help in the better planning for our future needs is something that should be looked down on sternly and, given it is an offence, punished accordingly.

MagicSean

28064212 wrote: »

Is Scientology an organised religion or a cult? Is Buddhism an organised religion or a set of beliefs? Wicca? Paganism?

And what was the freetext area for, if not to encompass beliefs that aren't covered in the other boxes?


I have no problem with it. I have a problem with someone calling for prosecution based on something so incredibly ill-defined and individual as religion.


Catholicism has an even more well-defined and narrow meaning than Jedi. Are we going to prosecute the "a la carte" Catholics?

It comes down to what you believe you are. If you think you are a catholic because you have a baptismal cert even though you dont practice and you put that down then it is not a lie because you believed it to be true. But you would have a hard time convincing a judge you believe you are Jedi and that you were being honest when you wrote it down. I'm sure you would have a lot of ways of trying to convince him but I doubt you would be successful.

Tayla

Deleted User wrote: »

Jedi isn't a belief. It's a registered trademark. It's the equivalent of putting Coca Cola in there.

No it isn't actually, Coca cola don't have a church.

Tayla

Tayla wrote: »

No it isn't actually, Coca cola don't have a church.

There are churches and then there are churches. The Church of Arthur Fonzarelli was pretty good in Family Guy, I think I'll follow that.

In all seriousness though this isn't actually a debate about the merits of one ridiculous belief in fairy stories over another. It's about whether or not putting Jedi down on the census form would be considered a falsehood by a reasonable person and, in all fairness, it would.

Jedi is a brand, not a religion. Just because some people take it way too seriously does not lend credibility to the "religion" it just denigrates the credibility of the people who profess it.

May the Force be with you.

Tayla

Deleted User wrote: »

In all seriousness though this isn't actually a debate about the merits of one ridiculous belief in fairy stories over another. It's about whether or not putting Jedi down on the census form would be considered a falsehood by a reasonable person and, in all fairness, it would.

The thread itself is about the enumerator abusing their position.

Deleted User wrote: »

Just because some people take it way too seriously does not lend credibility to the "religion"

I feel the exact same way about the Catholic church though, I don't find it credible at all, I don't want to say too much about it as I do not want to offend people but to me it's incredibly insulting that someone would say that the Catholic religion is a proper religion and will not allow people to claim that Jedi is their own. I just don't think people here have the right to say that these people are clearly lying and so therefore lying.

If someone decided to take the beliefs of the Jedi church seriously then is it really such a bad way to live your life?


I don't consider myself a Jedi by the way but there wouldn't have been enough room on the census form for me to explain what exactly I do believe in.

MagicSean

Tayla wrote: »

The thread itself is about the enumerator abusing their position.



I feel the exact same way about the Catholic church though, I don't find it credible at all, I don't want to say too much about it as I do not want to offend people but to me it's incredibly insulting that someone would say that the Catholic religion is a proper religion and will not allow people to claim that Jedi is their own. I just don't think people here have the right to say that these people are clearly lying and so therefore lying.

If someone decided to take the beliefs of the Jedi church seriously then is it really such a bad way to live your life?


I don't consider myself a Jedi by the way but there wouldn't have been enough room on the census form for me to explain what exactly I do believe in.

It's not about how ridiculous it would be to follow the jedi beliefs. It's about wether you are being honest if you were to write Jedi as your religion on a legal document.

Jesus Shaves

MagicSean wrote: »

It's not about how ridiculous it would be to follow the jedi beliefs. It's about wether you are being honest if you were to write Jedi as your religion on a legal document.

A court would never be able to prove whether you were honest or not if you wrote JEDI
Same as any religion

MagicSean

darokane wrote: »

A court would never be able to prove whether you were honest or not if you wrote JEDI
Same as any religion

I would say a district court judge would be easily persuaded you were lying. They don't often like playing games. It may get overuled in a higher court eventually.

Jesus Shaves

MagicSean wrote: »

I would say a district court judge would be easily persuaded you were lying. They don't often like playing games. It may get overuled in a higher court eventually.

District court judges are a joke
You can choose to have your case heard in a circuit court anyway, A jury would laugh if something like this ever came to trial