Rathcore Membership

Macker1

thoscon wrote: »

We had our EGM last night
A few of us have come together to try keep it open between now and xmas basically on a pay & play basis.
We will be open Wednesdays, Saturdays & Sundays
It's not ideal but at least we still have golf between now and xmas and we will re-evaluate the situation then
Steps have been taken to put the course on the open market

I wish you all the luck in the world. Its a smashing course and hopefully it will find a solution which ensures its future. I live nearby and have always enjoyed playing the course.

mark316

Fingers crossed the course pulls through, love the course

Kingswood Rover

thoscon wrote: »

We had our EGM last night
A few of us have come together to try keep it open between now and xmas basically on a pay & play basis.
We will be open Wednesdays, Saturdays & Sundays
It's not ideal but at least we still have golf between now and xmas and we will re-evaluate the situation then
Steps have been taken to put the course on the open market

Fair play, great to see you guys not going quietly into the night as some on here might wish.When good people come together for a cause that they passionately believe in, well lets just say mountains get moved.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

Unglika Norse

any further update on the situation, will ye manage to keep going in the New Year or is the 31st Dec the deadline, thanks.

the lawman

Unglika Norse wrote: »

any further update on the situation, will ye manage to keep going in the New Year or is the 31st Dec the deadline, thanks.

thoscon will know more than me and should be along soon but what I know is it's still Pay as you Play with the course opening up for Opens every Wednesday and Saturdays. It's also open for a good few open dates over the holidays.

These opens have been supported very well and it will continue into 2017 the way it is. Until a buyer comes in I presume it will stay like this.

thoscon

Unglika Norse wrote: »

any further update on the situation, will ye manage to keep going in the New Year or is the 31st Dec the deadline, thanks.

Yea we are able to keep it open into the new year.
It's open Wednesday, Saturday & Sundays at the minute and we hope to open a bit more in the new year .There is a few interested parties hoping to buy the course.

golfer555

thoscon wrote: »

Yea we are able to keep it open into the new year.
It's open Wednesday, Saturday & Sundays at the minute and we hope to open a bit more in the new year .There is a few interested parties hoping to buy the course.

Great to hear there's a few interested parties hoping to buy the course and good work keeping the place ticking over, you lads deserve an awful lot of credit.

Unglika Norse

Thanks Thoscon for the update, I thought the members had bought the club a year or two ago,

thoscon

Unglika Norse wrote: »

Thanks Thoscon for the update, I thought the members had bought the club a year or two ago,

We tried to buy it but couldn't raise the funds

thoscon

golfer555 wrote: »

Great to hear there's a few interested parties hoping to buy the course and good work keeping the place ticking over, you lads deserve an awful lot of credit.

Cheers
There's a group of us who just love the place too much to let it go.

Unglika Norse

Sh1t, that was a pity, because that was probably it's best bet at keeping going. It's hard to see how such an investment would realise a good healthy return for an investor, whereas the members club could have worked on much lower margins, but look keep the faith and lets hope for the best.

koheim

Still for sale and it is cheap, wonder if it will be picked up?
http://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/golf-course-and-clubhouse-near-enfield-co-meath-for-650-000-1.2949007

Unglika Norse

jeez for 650,000e I can't understand how the members couldn't raise that money or do a deal with the Bank as prices for a golf course go that's a give away. Then again maybe the price is now down to that because of a lack of interest, I am sure Thoscon will give an update.

Kingswood Rover

That sounds like a bargain, Does anyone know for certain what the stipulations time wise on ex golf courses being used as agricultural land. That's 3 courses for sale at the moment Dublin Mountain, Glen of the downs and Rathcore. Hopefully the members, a sugar daddy or a business person with a view to keeping it as a golf course/club will buy it.

thoscon

Unglika Norse wrote: »

jeez for 650,000e I can't understand how the members couldn't raise that money or do a deal with the Bank as prices for a golf course go that's a give away. Then again maybe the price is now down to that because of a lack of interest, I am sure Thoscon will give an update.

We spent all last autumn/winter trying to put together a package but we ultimately fell short & then we found a buyer who pulled out at the very last minute 😡
€650k is what we were trying to buy it for. The for sale sign went up a few weeks ago, there is quite a bit of interest in it from both golfing & non golfing parties. We are just hoping it's someone who wants to keep it as golf that buys it.
There's no way it'll go for €650k, it'll be closer to a million

thoscon

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

That sounds like a bargain, Does anyone know for certain what the stipulations time wise on ex golf courses being used as agricultural land. That's 3 courses for sale at the moment Dublin Mountain, Glen of the downs and Rathcore. Hopefully the members, a sugar daddy or a business person with a view to keeping it as a golf course/club will buy it.

It's 6 or 7 years before it can be used for agriculture purposes I think

bmay529

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

That sounds like a bargain, Does anyone know for certain what the stipulations time wise on ex golf courses being used as agricultural land. That's 3 courses for sale at the moment Dublin Mountain, Glen of the downs and Rathcore. Hopefully the members, a sugar daddy or a business person with a view to keeping it as a golf course/club will buy it.

Add the closure of Kilcoole to the list and that makes 4 course closures in the recent past

Milkers

Unglika Norse wrote: »

jeez for 650,000e I can't understand how the members couldn't raise that money or do a deal with the Bank as prices for a golf course go that's a give away. Then again maybe the price is now down to that because of a lack of interest, I am sure Thoscon will give an update.

It's not really about the upfront price, the biggest problem is the cost of upkeep. The minute you buy it you are on the hook for several hundred k more a year.

Ollieboy

thoscon wrote: »

It's 6 or 7 years before it can be used for agriculture purposes I think

Correct, with all the chemicals in the ground it takes about 7 years before it can be used for farming again.

Running Balance

Always loved playing rathcore when i loved in ireland.

Struck me as difficult place to convert to agri land. Lots of furze, small hills etc and would be a big job. At best grazing land.

Hopefully it will survive and best of luck to the members it would be a real loss to the golfing landscape..

First Up

Ollieboy wrote:

Correct, with all the chemicals in the ground it takes about 7 years before it can be used for farming again.

Is that always the case? The old Dublin City course at Ballinascorney has sheep all over it and that only closed a year or two.

Ollieboy

First Up wrote: »

Is that always the case? The old Dublin City course at Ballinascorney has sheep all over it and that only closed a year or two.

If it's sheep for wool I am sure it's not an issue. If it was cattle for the food market then that might be an issue.

If growing root veg's etc, then the chemicals used are not allowed into food products.

I had to sit down with people and go through all this when we got land valued last year.

You see the same thing with other types of business, like petrol stations. They nearly have to dig the whole site out before they allow building for homes on the sites as the pollution/chemicals are still in the land for years.

On another note, I know its sad to see a really good course go but in that area there is just to many clubs that offer cheap membership. Personally I would be surprised if anyone bought this club for a golf course but you never know. The running cost on a site like that would be high alone.

CMOTDibbler

Milkers wrote: »

It's not really about the upfront price, the biggest problem is the cost of upkeep. The minute you buy it you are on the hook for several hundred k more a year.

I think you may be overstating the running costs there. You do need some permanent staff in a golf club, but a lot of the ancillary jobs can be part-time. The club had something like 400 members which would bring in around 300k a year. Add in society golf and casual green fees and you've got probably another 100k.

Bar and restaurat should pay for themselves and the shop likewise. The purchase price is so low, that any borrowings should be easily managed.

Ollieboy

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

I think you may be overstating the running costs there. You do need some permanent staff in a golf club, but a lot of the ancillary jobs can be part-time. The club had something like 400 members which would bring in around 300k a year. Add in society golf and casual green fees and you've got probably another 100k.

Bar and restaurat should pay for themselves and the shop likewise. The purchase price is so low, that any borrowings should be easily managed.

Over 80% of bar and restaurants at clubs are loss making. Sky TV alone is 4k in most clubs, add on wages and product costs and you would need to be turning over 250k plus in food and 150k in drink sales to even consider making a profit. If you only open it at the weekends it just wouldn't pay for itself and getting staff to fit in with your opening schedule is impossible.

As for the running cost, I don't see 400k paying for it but here is some figures:

Full time admin staff t run the place and part time person as back-up 50k
Rates usually 15-20K
Insurance 20k+
Light & Heat 50 to 70K depending on the building and how much of it you are going to use.
Advertising (very important) at least 10k and thats cheap
Phone 6k
Printing & Stationery 12k (score-cards etc)
Repairs and Maintenance to the building 10k
Waste Cost 6k
Glasses/Cutley 2.5k

Now lets talk about the course:

During winter on a course that size you will need two full time staff and in the summer at least 4, so wages of 100k
Machinery (a single rough mower is 70k and you will need two of them) so if we can do a finance lease deal on the machinery then lets say 50k a year over 5 years and this machinery will need replacing every 5 to 7 years
Chemicals/Sanding etc 100k
Fuel 20k

Now I am only guessing these figures from experience of been involved in seeing the finances of a lot of golf clubs, but that's over 450k (add in golf-pro and losses from bar/restaurant) its not a business and if you do it for anything less it will turn into a farmers field pretty quickly and you will lose members and green fees.

Also if you borrow money to buy the place, add on 5% interest on the loan.

And to be honest I could add another 200k to the above costs that most clubs have to cover each year.

CMOTDibbler

Ollieboy wrote: »

Over 80% of bar and restaurants at clubs are loss making. Sky TV alone is 4k in most clubs, add on wages and product costs and you would need to be turning over 250k plus in food and 150k in drink sales to even consider making a profit. If you only open it at the weekends it just wouldn't pay for itself and getting staff to fit in with your opening schedule is impossible.

As for the running cost, I don't see 400k paying for it but here is some figures:

Full time admin staff t run the place and part time person as back-up 50k
Rates usually 15-20K
Insurance 20k+
Light & Heat 50 to 70K depending on the building and how much of it you are going to use.
Advertising (very important) at least 10k and thats cheap
Phone 6k
Printing & Stationery 12k (score-cards etc)
Repairs and Maintenance to the building 10k
Waste Cost 6k
Glasses/Cutley 2.5k

Now lets talk about the course:

During winter on a course that size you will need two full time staff and in the summer at least 4, so wages of 100k
Machinery (a single rough mower is 70k and you will need two of them) so if we can do a finance lease deal on the machinery then lets say 50k a year over 5 years and this machinery will need replacing every 5 to 7 years
Chemicals/Sanding etc 100k
Fuel 20k

Now I am only guessing these figures from experience of been involved in seeing the finances of a lot of golf clubs, but that's over 450k (add in golf-pro and losses from bar/restaurant) its not a business and if you do it for anything less it will turn into a farmers field pretty quickly and you will lose members and green fees.

Also if you borrow money to buy the place, add on 5% interest on the loan.

And to be honest I could add another 200k to the above costs that most clubs have to cover each year.

I think you're overstating things there. For example rates have been reduced for sports clubs to just the premises that are involved in earning money like the bar and restaurant. Additionally rates on the outskirts of towns and away from urban centres ae at a lower rate.

Your figure for electricity and heating is ridculously high. I looked at the accounts for Rathfarnham Golf Club which has a larger membership than a place like Rathcore and their electricity bill is about 25k. Their printing bill is half what you have and the course maintenance and machinery costs are around the 100k all in. Rathcore would already have machinery on-site. No need to buy any.

I also looked at Balbriggan's accounts and their expenditure is roughly the same. Telephone costs are also noticeably smaller.

I'm not saying it's a no-brainer, but at that cost of investment, it's not exactly the financial black hole you seem to be suggesting.

mrawkward

One can argue over the veracity of any numbers, but show me a privately owned golf course/club that is making money on borrowed money. Most member owned clubs even with modest debt struggle to break even. The reality is that it is not a sustainable business to get in to. Smaller commercial property investment opportunities ( €500K -2M) typically offer a gross return of 10% on capital, golf courses without hotels etc are generally loss making. A contact of mine in the US lends money to buyers of golf courses but only to the 3rd or 4th buyer... they have a chance when 80-90% of the investment has been burned.

Rathcore/Dublin Mountain/Kilcoole/Glen of the Downs etc are quite different to Doonbeg or Lough Erne in terms of their capacity/ability to be converted into cash generation propositions. Charlesland is the odd man out, it has reverted to the freehold owners and they have other activities on site with wealthy owners and professional golf course/club management provided by Carr Golf.

CMOTDibbler

mrawkward wrote: »

One can argue over the veracity of any numbers, but show me a privately owned golf course/club that is making money on borrowed money. Most member owned clubs even with modest debt struggle to break even. The reality is that it is not a sustainable business to get in to. Smaller commercial property investment opportunities ( €500K -2M) typically offer a gross return of 10% on capital, golf courses without hotels etc are generally loss making. A contact of mine in the US lends money to buyers of golf courses but only to the 3rd or 4th buyer... they have a chance when 80-90% of the investment has been burned.

Most member owned golf clubs don't aim to make money. They're there for the benefit of their members. They may put away funds for future expaansion or development, but their primary aim is not to make a profit.

It's pretty much the same with any sports club tbh. If they make money, it's then earmarked to spend on something else.

mrawkward

CMOTDibbler wrote: »

Most member owned golf clubs don't aim to make money. They're there for the benefit of their members. They may put away funds for future expaansion or development, but their primary aim is not to make a profit.

It's pretty much the same with any sports club tbh. If they make money, it's then earmarked to spend on something else.

My point excactly...zero commercial rationale to invest!

CMOTDibbler

mrawkward wrote: »

My point excactly...zero commercial rationale to invest!

In a member owned club, absolutely. but to buy a club that's folded for a knock-down price and then collect the subs and green fees with a view to making a profit is a much better proposition.

So long as you can keep the existing members and attract new ones, you don't have to spend money on the kinds of things a member owned club would do. There are quite a few clubs around the country that are run on that basis.