Should Irish Army WW2 Deserters (to join B.A.) be pardoned ?

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

blatantrereg wrote: »

your posts make my mind boggle.
There's nothing to defend. You're not debating the information in my post. I dont care whether you agree or disagree with the word "extreme" to describe it. That's a matter of opinion. My opinion is my opinion. It's not something you should care so much about.

Oh dear. I've clearly struck a nerve here, it seems.

Oh, well.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

gbee wrote: »

The jurisdiction over these men was under a different government. A new state and army was formed with the Irish Republic. A new oath to a new regime.

This makes no sense. I haven't changed my mind on your mental state, either.

neilled

Other - Please explain.

gbee wrote: »

The jurisdiction over these men was under a different government. A new state and army was formed with the Irish Republic. A new oath to a new regime.

But the republic of Ireland act wasn't until 1948 - it didn't occur during the war at all?

gbee

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

neilled wrote: »

I somehow doubt 5000 men who'd abandoned their posts would have overrun the state, given the size of even the woefully equipped armed forces.

And I'm sure they never had any intention of even trying ~ the point being emphasised is they were HALF of the armed forces, they were themselves armed ~ obviously given the poor equipment base, maybe they were the half who paraded with a hurley ~ [half joke half serious, I wasn't there ]

gbee

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

neilled wrote: »

But the republic of Ireland act wasn't until 1948 - it didn't occur during the war at all?

Precisely, exactly that. The state that the men left in this thread, the 5,000 deserters, have in fact no state left to prosecute them.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

gbee wrote: »

Precisely, exactly that. The state that the men left in this thread, the 5,000 deserters, have in fact no state left to prosecute them.

It's a unique legal theory, certainly, I'll give you that.

(Where do they get them from?)

LordSutch

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Option One: Stay here & polish your old WWI rifle, shine you boots, do traffic duty (mostly herding sheep), help with ration control, then in the evenings listen to the Second World War unfold in all its horror on BBC Radio. (no risk to your life, but could you handle the guilt)?

Option Two: Join up with the massive allied force gathering in Britain & the continent, fight Hitler & the Nazi's, fight pure evil and be a part of the largest War effort the world had ever seen, do your part against the Nazi's (at the risk of being killed)!

Option Two for me please.

Morlar

Other - Please explain.

gbee wrote: »

I love this kind of debate. You won't walk across the road, maybe I should thrown you into the traffic then.

.....

I'd go so far as to say that the 5,000 who stayed behind are cowards.

I think you reflect one element of the general British view on this subject.

To view the Irish and it's army as cowards hiding behind Britains coat-tails.

Not a view I would agree with, but, as stated at least you are honest about it.

In relation to the higher rates of pay in the British Army of that time this article may be informative :

http://www.forthesakeofexample.com/DeV%27s%20Treatment%20of%20Irish%20Deserters%20by%20Bernard%20Kelly%20History%20Ireland%20September%202011.pdf

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

LordSutch wrote: »

Option One: Stay here & polish your old WWI rifle, shine you boots, do traffic duty (mostly herding sheep), help with ration control, then in the evenings listen to the Second World War unfold in all its horror on BBC Radio. (no risk to your life, but could you handle the guilt)?

Option Two: Join up with the massive allied force gathering in Britain & the continent, fight Hitler & the Nazi's, fight pure evil and be a part of the largest War effort the world had ever seen, do your part against the Nazi's (at the risk of being killed)!

Option Two for me please.

Then you face the legal consequences like a man, rather than spending sixty years whining about how you were temporarily banned from State employment as a result.

gbee

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Maoltuile wrote: »

It's a unique legal theory, certainly, I'll give you that. (Where do they get them from?)

Legal yes it certainly is.

LordSutch

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Maoltuile wrote: »

Then you face the legal consequences like a man, rather than spending sixty years whining about how you were temporarily banned from State employment as a result.

Gas isnt it, the whole world is fighting the NAZI'S, and those who fought Hitler were heroes wherever they came from, and returned to, and then you have this tiny backward little 1940s backwater whose government couldn't even bring themselves to say 'Second World War' (so they called it the Emergency), some bleedin emergency, and then they declared that anybody who left their dusty old post here to fight the Nazi's was to be penalised on their return < what a farce.

Only in the (backward) Ireland of that time could such twisted thinking occur. Go on then, leave these shores and fight the Nazi's if you must (Brit lover), but be warned, when you get back to Ireland you will be sorry, you will be very very sorry for the rest of your life, and you will pay :mad:

Morlar

Other - Please explain.

LordSutch wrote: »

Only in the (backward) Ireland of that time could such twisted thinking occur. Go on then, leave these shores and fight the Nazi's if you must (Brit lover), but be warned, when you get back to Ireland you will be sorry, you will be very very sorry for the rest of your life, and you will pay :mad:

Can you point to a single instance of Irish State action taken against an Irish person who left Ireland to join the British Army ?

Loss of Irish Army Benefits and being barred from STATE Funded employment were measures which were applied to those who deserted the Irish Army.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

Morlar wrote: »

Can you point to a single instance of Irish State action taken against an Irish person who left Ireland to join the British Army ?

He's probably just going to ignore this, so I wouldn't worry about it or the rest of his rant.

LordSutch

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Morlar wrote: »

Can you point to a single instance of Irish State action taken against an Irish person who left Ireland to join the British Army ?

But sure isnt that what this whole thread is about?

The penalty of daring to leave these shores to fight the Nazi's was the fact that on your return you couldn't get a job, you were held in total disregar & disgrace becuse you dared to leave the dusty old (neutered & neutral) Irish army and fight the Nazi's.

Disgraceful.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

LordSutch wrote: »

But sure isnt that what this whole thread is about? the penalty of deserting the Irish army

Which in every single country in the world carries a penalty, and for good reason. Only in Ireland would people have a blasé attitude to such things.

gbee

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Maoltuile wrote: »

He's probably just going to ignore this, so I wouldn't worry about it or the rest of his rant.

There are two points, our debate here, the legalities, hyberbola and then the actual incidents of prosecution ~

Has the Free State made attempts to arrest these deserters? Has the Irish Republic taken on a constitutional responsibility to prosecute these deserters from the Free State?

neilled

Other - Please explain.

gbee wrote: »

There are two points, our debate here, the legalities, hyberbola and then the actual incidents of prosecution ~

Has the Free State made attempts to arrest these deserters? Has the Irish Republic taken on a constitutional responsibility to prosecute these deserters from the Free State?

I have heard of stories where an auld lad showed up at a barracks saying he'd deserted during the emergency. The story goes he was taken inside, given a cup of tea whilst his discharge was processed - stating that he'd done a runner and that was it - book closed and told that your not being looked for - go home and sleep easy.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

LordSutch wrote: »

But sure isnt that what this whole thread is about?

The penalty of daring to leave these shores to fight the Nazi's was the fact that on your return you couldn't get a job, you were held in total disregar & disgrace becuse you dared to leave the dusty old (neutered & neutral) Irish army and fight the Nazi's.

Disgraceful.

I would note that the list of neutrals in WWII included Norway, Sweden, the Netherlands, the USA, Switzerland, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, Turkey, Luxembourg, Denmark, Argentina etc.

The ones from the above list who entered the war did so only after being attacked.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

neilled wrote: »

I have heard of stories where an auld lad showed up at a barracks saying he'd deserted during the emergency. The story goes he was taken inside, given a cup of tea whilst his discharge was processed - stating that he'd done a runner and that was it - book closed and told that your not being looked for - go home and sleep easy.

I heard the same story (and a similar one about a deserter from the Royal Green Jackets, who had feared to go to the UK for forty years after he deserted).

jack08q

Other - Please explain.

If you worked in the Civil service today, went off to America for a few years, then came back, would you expect to get a government job in Ireland?
If you had a dishonorable discharge on your record, you would be unable to find employment today, in any government job, in any country.
Are only those that deserted to join the british army getting a pardon. what about thoses that went and worked in the ammunition factories in England?

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

gbee wrote: »

There are two points, our debate here, the legalities, hyberbola and then the actual incidents of prosecution ~

Has the Free State made attempts to arrest these deserters? Has the Irish Republic taken on a constitutional responsibility to prosecute these deserters from the Free State?

I'm not sure why I should bother replying to someone who refers to the Republic of Ireland as the "Free State". It certainly doesn't seem a worthwhile use of my time to encourage teh crazy.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

jack08q wrote: »

If you worked in the Civil service today, went off to America for a few years, then came back, would you expect to get a government job in Ireland?
If you had a dishonorable discharge on your record, you would be unable to find employment today, in any government job, in any country.
Are only those that deserted to join the british army getting a pardon. what about thoses that went and worked in the ammunition factories in England?

I remember hearing this about Adie Roche's brother a few years ago, during the Presidential election. His life was ruined, IIRC (the oath and service is a heavy responsibility).

LordSutch

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Maoltuile wrote: »

Which in every single country in the world carries a penalty, and for good reason. Only in Ireland would people have a blasé attitude to such things.

Stop making excuses for the 1940s Irish government & their despicable treatment of those heroes who went off to fight Hitler. Outsiders reading this must be amazed & baffled by those narrow minded people who defend the flawed 1940's thinking, "if you leave the neutral Irish army and fight Adlof Hitler, then you will be very sorry on your return" you will never be employed again in this state, & you will suffer for life < bloody disgrace in any normal persons thinking!

The thing is, at the time of WWII the Irish government were aware of what was happening on the continent, they were aware of the Nazi atrocities, the Irish government also knew that fighting men were urgently needed to fight the Nazi machine, and yet, even with the knowledge of what was unfolding in Europe, the Irish Government said, we will get those deserting buggers on their return, & they will never work again!

And then at the end of the War when De Valera hears about the death of Adolf Hitler, (a joy to most) he sends a letter of condolense to the German people!!!

Twisted buggers.

gbee

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Maoltuile wrote: »

I'm not sure why I should bother replying to someone who refers to the Republic of Ireland as the "Free State". It certainly doesn't seem a worthwhile use of my time to encourage teh crazy.

Two different governments. Like it or not, these men left the Free State Army during the emergency.

Later the Free State became a Republic a new sovereign state requiring a new oath of allegiance. And loads more trivial stuff. From the Republic comes the Irish Army, it's new legal entity.

jack08q

Other - Please explain.

You take an oath to serve a country. Nation states take theses oaths very seriously.
You also have to remember that at the time, nobody really knew what terrible things the NAZIS did.
However if you were in Dresden, when it was fire bombed, you wouldn't think that the British were all that great either.

jack08q

Other - Please explain.

The Irish Constitution didn't change

gbee

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Maoltuile wrote: »

I remember hearing this about Adie Roche's brother a few years ago, during the Presidential election. His life was ruined, IIRC (the oath and service is a heavy responsibility).

This is one black post. Here we are talking about Free State deserters and YOU'RE bring up a case concerning a Presidential Candidate and her brother, a member of the Irish Army ie the Irish Republic's standing armed forces [at the time only the army] and this slur has NOTHING to do with the point of this thread.

gbee

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

jack08q wrote: »

The Irish Constitution didn't change

It had to be adopted by the new state and sworn in legally, only a formality in effect, but it was done, technically a new constitution, it comes up in law a lot.

Turbine

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

LordSutch wrote: »

But sure isnt that what this whole thread is about?

The penalty of daring to leave these shores to fight the Nazi's was the fact that on your return you couldn't get a job, you were held in total disregar & disgrace becuse you dared to leave the dusty old (neutered & neutral) Irish army and fight the Nazi's.

Disgraceful.

No actually, this thread is regarding those who first joined the Irish Army and then went AWOL to fight with the allies.

Regardless of their intentions, the fact is they deserted their national army and broke the oath that they swore upon enlisting, and as such should face the consequences.

Any soldier that deserted their army in Britain, the US, France et al would've faced the same consequences.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

LordSutch wrote: »

Stop making excuses for the 1940s Irish government & their despicable treatment of those heroes who went off to fight Hitler. Outsiders reading this must be amazed & baffled by those narrow minded people who defend the flawed 1940's thinking, "if you leave the neutral Irish army and fight Adlof Hitler, then you will be very sorry on your return" you will never be employed again in this state, & you will suffer for life < bloody disgrace in any normal persons thinking!

The thing is, at the time of WWII the Irish government were aware of what was happening on the continent, they were aware of the Nazi atrocities, the Irish government also knew that fighting men were urgently needed to fight the Nazi machine, and yet, even with the knowledge of what was unfolding in Europe, the Irish Government said, we will get those deserting buggers on their return, & they will never work again!

And then at the end of the War when De Valera hears about the death of Adolf Hitler, (a joy to most) he sends a letter of condolense to the German people!!!

Twisted buggers.

Except that all of this (impressive) meltdown is invalidated by the simple fact that Dev and his government facilitated anyone who wanted to joining the British Army.

People who were already in Irish military service don't get to make their own decisions about swanning off to join another army.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

gbee wrote: »

It had to be adopted by the new state and sworn in legally, only a formality in effect, but it was done, technically a new constitution, it comes up in law a lot.

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, do you? If by some chance you're presently living in your grandparents house, and someone arrives tomorrow to tell you that the Republic of Ireland had no legal continuity with anything that went before, do you really mean to tell me that you'd vacate the premises?

By the way, the name of the 26-county state was 'Éire' during the period in question. You've been corrected on this already. The title of the "Irish Free State" ended with dev's 1937 Constitution.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

gbee wrote: »

This is one black post. Here we are talking about Free State deserters and YOU'RE bring up a case concerning a Presidential Candidate and her brother, a member of the Irish Army ie the Irish Republic's standing armed forces [at the time only the army] and this slur has NOTHING to do with the point of this thread.

Slur...? Are you drunk?

gbee

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Maoltuile wrote: »

Slur...? Are you drunk?

Yes. I'm also a personal friend of Adi and have informed them of this post. Your behaviour has been despicable and if you ever served in the forces YOU sir should be stripped and whipped.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

gbee wrote: »

Yes. I'm also a personal friend of Adi and have informed them of this post. Your behaviour has been despicable and if you ever served in the forces YOU sir should be stripped and whipped.

And you should sober up before continuing any further. This was all thrashed out in public a decade ago: I offer no opinion one way or another on the truth of any of it.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/officer-fights-to-clear-his-name-40-years-on-2098874.html

LordSutch

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

jack08q wrote: »

You take an oath to serve a country. Nation states take theses oaths very seriously.
You also have to remember that at the time, nobody really knew what terrible things the NAZIS did..

This is truly preposterous :rolleyes:

Are you really saying that dusty old Dev (or was it Hyde)? didn't have a wireless (radio) plugged into the mains in Áras an Uachtaráin . . .
Of course the Irish governmet knew what was happening during the War, of course he knew Britain's plight, France's plight, Belgium's plight too, and of course he knew that by keeping his men here locked into his little neutral army that it would piss off the UK, Canada, Australia & the USA no end (and that's exactly what happened). Admittedly the full horror of the concentration camps was not 100% known about at the time, but most governments had radios & connections of some kind, and a reasonable knowledge of what Nazi germany was up to and the grave situation that the World was in 1939-45.

I urge Alan Shatter to hurry up & clear their names of those Irish heroes who fought Hitler, and I fully expect that will happen in due course.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

LordSutch wrote: »

This is truly preposterous :rolleyes:

Are you really saying that dusty old Dev didn't have a wireless (radio) plugged into the mains in Áras an Uachtaráin . . . of course Dev & his governmet knew what was happening during the War

What? You do know that the Taoiseach doesn't live in Áras an Úachtaráin, right? And I welcome your evidence that what was going on in the concentration camps was being broadcast by the BBC during the war. Well?

of course he knew Britain's plight, France's plight, Belgium's plight too, and of course he knew that by keeping his men here locked into his little neutral army that it would piss off the UK, Canada, Australia & the USA no end (and that's exactly what happened). Admittedly the full horror of the concentration camps was not 100% known about at the time, but most governments had radios & connections of some kind, and a reasonable knowledge of what Nazi germany was up to and the grave situation that the World was in 1939-45.

I note that you're ignoring the large number of neutral countries during WWII, for one thing. And "Belgium's plight"? What is this, a WWI thread?

pompeyboi

Why should they have to be 'pardoned' they wanted put their lives on the line to help stop the evil nazis from persecuting innocent people and invading europe. wots wrong with that? the irish army would never see action in the war (or any war for that matter) so they jioned the british who actually had the guts to stand up to the nazis.

gbee

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Maoltuile wrote: »

What? You do know that the Taoiseach doesn't live in Áras an Úachtaráin, right?

You're being aggressively obtuse.

I think this is a reporting matter.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

gbee wrote: »

You're being aggressively obtuse.

I think this is a reporting matter.

That'll go well, particularly from someone (i) who's just admitted that you're drunk right now (ii) made a false allegation in inflammatory language (unretracted) about what I had said on Adi Roche's brother.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

pompeyboi wrote: »

Why should they have to be 'pardoned'

We agree on this, though maybe not for the same reasons.

gbee

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

I think there are some people who disgrace the uniform.

I'm sorry I took part in this thread.

I'm not sorry to have worn the uniform.

I think it brings dishonour to us ALL, back over 300 years, let alone a few decades, to have had to listen to some of the posts in this thread.

May all those who served, fought and died for the Irish Cause be blessed, and all those others forgiven.

The Brotherhood is eternal.

Maoltuile

Other - Please explain.

gbee wrote: »

I think there are some people who disgrace the uniform.

I'm sorry I took part in this thread.

I'm not sorry to have worn the uniform.

I think it brings dishonour to us ALL, back over 300 years, let alone a few decades, to have had to listen to some of the posts in this thread.

May all those who served, fought and died for the Irish Cause be blessed, and all those others forgiven.

The Brotherhood is eternal.

Sorry, sunshine, but you don't get to say that in the same thread that you also said:

I'd go so far as to say that the 5,000 who stayed behind are cowards.

Poccington

Other - Please explain.

Less of the handbags please gents.

Poccington

Other - Please explain.

Personally, I voted No.


Those men swore an oath to this country upon deciding to serve this state. They deserted at a time when they were needed. They had an option to seek a discharge but rather than do so, they went AWOL.

Regardless of the deeds they carried out during WW2, they deserted this country and it's Army.

So no, they shouldn't be.

Gooleybag

Other - Please explain.

Poccington wrote: »

Personally, I voted No.


Those men swore an oath to this country upon deciding to serve this state. They deserted at a time when they were needed. They had an option to seek a discharge but rather than do so, they went AWOL.

Regardless of the deeds they carried out during WW2, they deserted this country and it's Army.

So no, they shouldn't be.

^^^All that needs to be said on the matter.

What is it with us Irish we're always looking for the grey area

gbee

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Gooleybag wrote: »

What is it with us Irish we're always looking for the grey area

I think it's called charity.,

ArphaRima

Other - Please explain.

I cant abide by someone taking an oath to defend us and then going AWOL to fight with a foreign power regardless of the eventual outcome.

We are all speaking now with the benefit of hindsight in terms of the Nazi menace etc.

I would hate to think that it could be that easy to abandon one's vows and pledges in future.

I admire their tenacity to fight, but they knew what they were doing when they left and what it meant. They should live by their decisions. It's a cross I'm sure they were willing to bear.

alanmcqueen

Poccington wrote: »

Personally, I voted No.


Those men swore an oath to this country upon deciding to serve this state. They deserted at a time when they were needed. They had an option to seek a discharge but rather than do so, they went AWOL.

Regardless of the deeds they carried out during WW2, they deserted this country and it's Army.

So no, they shouldn't be.

Did they have the option to discharge? why did so many desert if that option was there? I don't know; does anyone else here?

I would agree with you if those involved had been charged, convicted if found guilty and punished. However we know that didn't happen. What followed for them was totally unfair and that's the only reason why I believe they should be pardoned now.

Morlar

Other - Please explain.

alanmcqueen wrote: »

Did they have the option to discharge? why did so many desert if that option was there? I don't know; does anyone else here?

I would agree with you if those involved had been charged, convicted if found guilty and punished. However we know that didn't happen. What followed for them was totally unfair and that's the only reason why I believe they should be pardoned now.

I am not sure about their option to discharge themselves. The reasons for desertion seem to be complex, and it would seem included the greater wages in the B.A.

Can I ask why do you consider it was 'totally unfair' that deserters lose their benefits and are barred from state employment for 7 years ?

Would you consider them totally unfair in comparison with the penalties in other countries (either at that time or now) ?

I am not aware of any other countries where in comparison Irish penalties for desertion (in this case) are more extreme.

I'd consider this a bad precedent for any state to make. There is also (imo) the inevitable risk of a flood of backdated compensation claims by descendants to consider, in any potential pardon legislation.

gbee

No - they should NOT be Pardoned.

Morlar wrote: »

Can I ask why do you consider it was 'totally unfair' that deserters lose their benefits and are barred from state employment for 7 years ?

Where it's unfair is this should have been a cut off point, end of, punishment complete. If it was we'd not be hearing about it today, and whilst no one is actively pursuing these men, it should be made official.

If a few had been court-martial then, they could have been hung or shot dead ~ or get 5~7 prison, maybe 10 years and it would be over.