Who is to blame?

Jose1

Having read through reams of paper and listened to hours of debate were one Political Party seems to blames the other for our nations current state of bankruptcy, I decided to stand back and take a fresh look at who is really to blame. I must also stress that I am no whizkid at maths nor do I have any affiliation with any Political Party, shudder the thought:eek:.

(It's a long post, but well worth the read)

In 2003 the Financial Regulator was set up as the single regulator of all financial institutions in Ireland, it was also part of the Central Bank of Ireland.

In 2004 the first signs of mismanagement appaered when the FR (Financial Regulator) was warned by its German counterpart that Sachsen LB's troubled Irish subsidiaries were involved in high risk and under-scrutinised transactions worth €30bn (20 times the parent bank's capitalisation). Despite the warning, in 2007 the FR approved another Sachsen investment, but two months later it needed a €17bn bail-out from German savings banks to keep Sachsen afloat.

In 2005 the Irish Brokers Association said there was "intense frustration and annoyance" about excessive red tape as the FR refused to listen to them.

That same year the FR was criticised for publishing a report, which it was said, read a bit like a promotional brochure for the money lending industry.

Later that year the New York Times referred to Ireland as the “Wild West of European finance” as it witnessed the fragility of the country's Financial Regulation system.

The Australian Authorities warned the FR of the activities of a person connected with the largest bankruptcy in their country's history. But the FR did nothing as the guy went on to commit a US$500 million fraud and pleaded guilty in the US despite the crime being committed here in Ireland.

In 2006, a government appointed panel which consisted of banking and insurance representatives revealed widespread dissatisfaction with the regulator’s skills base and had ‘‘major concerns with the quality and cost of the services’’ provided to the regulator by the Central Bank.

In 2007 transcripts of phone calls by the FR's senior staff suggest they gave tacit approval to the illicit movement of deposits involving Irish Life and Permanent.

The FR also knew that Allied Irish Banks were overcharging consumers in FX fees but failed to act for a number of years and gave a parliamentary inquiry the "false impression" that they were unaware of it. Ignorance is bliss!

In 2008 Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny and finance spokesman Richard Bruton called for the board and senior management of the FR to be sacked. Independent Senator, Shane Ross said that the FR was an institution which had lost the faith of the international markets.

In 2009 Ernst & Young was hired to advise the FR on the €440 billion bank guarantee scheme, despite the fact that Ernst & Young were being investigated arising from its audits of Anglo Irish Bank, and had also refused to appear before a parliamentary committee following the collapse of the same bank after receiving "legal advice".

The FR also blocked insurers and banks from making any critical statements containing "any references to the Financial Regulator" by means either of "public press statements" or un-approved public references, whether "written or oral."

Later the same year the head of the German Financial Regulator told the Bundestag Finance Committee that the failure of the "terrible" Depfa Bank, which was completely supervised by the Irish Financial Regulator, lead to the collapse of its German parent which forced Berlin to bail it out at a cost of €102 billion. The committee was told that the alternative was a run on German banks and the eventual collapse of the European finance system and “You would have woken up on Monday morning in the film Apocalypse Now.” The small bank had only just 319 employees but was allowed to guarantee loans valued at 14 times Ireland's Gross Domestic Product. A former Governor of the FR's parent, which is the Central Bank of Ireland, was a director of Depfa. Little wonder Angela Merkel won't play ball with us!

Transparency International have questioned whether the FR should continue to have an exemption from Freedom of Information legislation. Compliance experts have said "the most offensive confidentiality provision in Ireland is the one which protects the Financial Regulator." Both the Financial Services Ombudsman and the Information Commissioner, among others, have called for a lifting of the confidentiality applied by the regulator to much of its work. Other EU Financial Regulators have a policy of transparency.

The FR had to admit that it had issued private warnings to over 30% of credit unions about their arrears levels, but refused to provide full updates on what percentage of Credit Union loans were in arrears or how quickly they are increasing. Which also raised questions about the FR's commitment to openness.

Former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, in a report in the Financial Times said that his decision in 2001 to create a new Financial Regulator was one of the main reasons for the collapse of the Irish banking sector and (use your best Dublin accent for thsi piece) “if I had a chance again I wouldn't do it”. He also said "The banks were irresponsible," and admitted "Both the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator seemed happy. They were never into us saying – ever – 'Listen, we must put legislation and control on the banks'. That never happened."

The director general of the Free Legal Advice Centres said, the code of conduct on mortgage arrears produced by the FR was "deeply disappointing", and did not offer enough protection for consumers.

In a speech, the Governor of the Central Bank said that "ignorance and inattention" by FR staff were to blame for regulatory failure.

The Consumer Consultative Panel said that they were unable to function for almost a year because officials ignored requests for meetings and "we believe it is unacceptable that the board of the Financial Regulator has failed to take responsibility for their stewardship of the organisation during the last six years. It seems the FR did not understand many of the sectors and financial products it was supposedly regulating.

In 2010 the Controller and Auditor General called for the FR to give an annual statement to the Dáil on bank supervision and to make regulation ‘‘more accountable’’ after highlighting shortcomings in financial regulation leading up to the financial crisis.

The new FR's Chief Executive outlined his shock at the poor level of financial regulation he discovered when he under took his new post. "It is clear to me we need to undertake a fundamental overhaul of the regulatory model for financial services in Ireland.'' He also pointed out that there was a"critical absence of intellectual firepower within his staff.''

High risk and sloppy lending practices at the Irish Nationwide Building Society were reported to the FR by external accountants over a long period of time but did not change its behaviour.The former head of compliance, became a whistle blower by reporting "dodgy practices" but again the authorities did nothing. It later required a €5.4 billion Government bailout, leaving it effectively in State ownership.

A letter which the FR received concerning the legality of the illicit loans by the Building Society to Sean FitzPatrick had "gone missing". Management at Irish Nationwide usually arranged meetings with the FR for late Friday afternoons, knowing full well that the regulator's staff would not want for the encounter to last for more than an hour or so, because it would nibble into their weekends.

It also emerged that the FR authorised the Quinn Group (which subsequently went into administration) to borrow €169 million from Anglo Irish Bank in order to buy Anglo Irish shares (which subsequently had to be nationalised at a cost of €5,500 for every man, woman and child in the State). Its actions were described as "like the Vatican running an abortion clinic."

On her State tour to Russia, the President Mary McAleese, highlighting the importance of competence, as she launched an unprecedented attack on the FR for their role in the financial crisis which resulted in tens of thousands of people out of work and in mortgage arrears.

About the same time, it was reported that the German television station ZDF, in a programme filmed in Ireland on banking said, ‘‘it is an open secret that the rules here are not exactly strict’’.

Criminal prosecutions by An Garda Siochana against managers in banks who committed offences are being seriously undermined as the FR were well aware of the alleged offences but took no action to stop them. Thus provided an arguable defence to those who committed wrongdoing, as they could reasonably claim they were acting with the approval of the regulatory authorities at all times.

The Financial Regulator officially the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority, was the single regulator of all financial institutions in Ireland from May 2003 until October 2010 and was a "constituent part" of the Central Bank of Ireland. It was re-unified with the Central Bank of Ireland on 1 October 2010 and its board structure was replaced by a new Central Bank of Ireland Commission.

Matthew Elderfield, formerly head of the Bermuda Monetary Authority, led the organisation from January 2010 until it was disestablished in November 2010. The previous chief executive officer was Patrick Neary, who retired early over the handling of the regulator's investigation into the €87 million in secret directors' loans at Anglo Irish Bank.The incumbent before that, had companies he is a director of, fined a total of €3.35 million by his previous employers the FR, for risk control and reporting failures.

Within days, after the arrival in Ireland of the International Monetary Fund, and following the stress tests on banks, which the FR conducted 4 months earlier. The IMF spoke of how the test had "failed to convince financial markets and that the level of capital the banks required needed to be increased by 50 per cent.

So folks, there you have!

It seems too easy to blame the local guy knocking on your door who promises to ''change the world'' while looking for your vote. Of the nice lady behind the glass at the bank counter. Go figure!

hondasam

Not politics so soon in the new year, give us a break.

Mr.Biscuits

Sarcastic song title .. fitting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-A6WH1kQLc

Snowie

I will pay a moderator to make tho thread go away 20 euros ?

donvito99

yo're ma?

RachaelVO

It's all your fault OP, look at what you did

Smcgie

Fianna fail

/close thread please

syklops

tl;dr

If we spent less time trying to afford blame on people and more time trying to get out of the mess we might be better off.

El Weirdo

No tl;dr yet?

Edit: Ah, thanks syklops.

seamus

The Financial Regulator wasn't an all-powerful dictatorship.

Who did the FR report to? Oh, that's right....Fianna Fáil's government.

syklops

El Weirdo wrote: »

No tl;dr yet?

Jumping the gun a bit there.

Where To

The general public are to blame.

cml387

(It's a long post, but well worth the read)

No

FatherLen

i am sick of people looking for someone to blame
and then posting in AH about politics.

pragmatic1

Fianna Fail.

Killer Pigeon

The failure lies in big government and regulation that increases bureacracy and risk which ultimately leads to the New World Order and the End of the Universe culminating in we're all fucked.

/good night Josephine

Sunnyisland

FatherLen wrote: »

i am sick of people looking for someone to blame
and then posting in AH about politics.

But its better fun here

Jose1

realies wrote: »

But its better fun here

Jog on children, isn't it past your bedtime?

Oh, I forgot, it's the weekend

Serial posters trying to hit a big number with utter cr*p. Well, if you must zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Kevin Duffy

So the cops knew that Internal Affairs were setting them up?

chucken1

I heard its all Kevin Duffys fault.....and Realies :cool:

44leto

Its no-ones fault, when we come out of this we will be immediately set on a course to enter into another one in future year.

Booms and busts are as old as economics, There has been 21 property booms since the war all in different countries and all ended in disaster.

There are now a property boom in China and Brazil both of these will end as ours did.

Chuck Stone

I blame moles. Not spies but actual moles that burrow.

They burrowed into the banks and took all the monies.

Sneaky bastards.

Duggy747

I did it, I just went for a piss thinking everything would be okay for 2 minutes.

When I came back, 400,000+ were on the dole. I screwed up, boss

jetsonx

Fianna Fail are the prime culprits.

Their plans were aided and abetted by faceless mandarins who work in
executive positions within our civil service.

44leto

jetsonx wrote: »

Fianna Fail are the prime culprits.

Their plans were aided and abetted by faceless mandarins who work in
executive positions within our civil service.

How about the toss pots that voted them in. They could have stopped the party and slowed things down but that would have been electoral suicide. We are all to blame.

jetsonx

44leto wrote: »

How about the toss pots that voted them in. They could have stopped the party and slowed things down but that would have been electoral suicide. We are all to blame.

I never voted for FF in my life.

You are right it is the toss pots who voted them are the ultimate blame
but how do you stop gombeens voting for sharp suited greasy Fianna Failers
and their empty promises. You can't.

The only alternative I can think of is political points system whereby politicians get into power on the basis of "points" accumulated in successful national or local projects they have completed. For example on a scale of 1 to 100, getting the local potholes sorted out might get them 8 points. Setting up a hub of successful start-ups in their locality would get them 70 points.

Yes, all of their efforts would probably takes years to help them get recognised but is a much better alternative to the short-term electoral cycle at the moment.

El Weirdo

Jose1 wrote: »

Well, if you must zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Did you read your OP again?

Dudess

where do i go from here wrote: »

The general public are to blame.

Including you?

K-9

Jose1 wrote: »

Having read through reams of paper and listened to hours of debate were one Political Party seems to blames the other for our nations current state of bankruptcy, I decided to stand back and take a fresh look at who is really to blame. I must also stress that I am no whizkid at maths nor do I have any affiliation with any Political Party, shudder the thought:eek:.

(It's a long post, but well worth the read)

In 2003 the Financial Regulator was set up as the single regulator of all financial institutions in Ireland, it was also part of the Central Bank of Ireland.

In 2004 the first signs of mismanagement appaered when the FR (Financial Regulator) was warned by its German counterpart that Sachsen LB's troubled Irish subsidiaries were involved in high risk and under-scrutinised transactions worth €30bn (20 times the parent bank's capitalisation). Despite the warning, in 2007 the FR approved another Sachsen investment, but two months later it needed a €17bn bail-out from German savings banks to keep Sachsen afloat.

In 2005 the Irish Brokers Association said there was "intense frustration and annoyance" about excessive red tape as the FR refused to listen to them.

That same year the FR was criticised for publishing a report, which it was said, read a bit like a promotional brochure for the money lending industry.

Later that year the New York Times referred to Ireland as the “Wild West of European finance” as it witnessed the fragility of the country's Financial Regulation system.

The Australian Authorities warned the FR of the activities of a person connected with the largest bankruptcy in their country's history. But the FR did nothing as the guy went on to commit a US$500 million fraud and pleaded guilty in the US despite the crime being committed here in Ireland.

In 2006, a government appointed panel which consisted of banking and insurance representatives revealed widespread dissatisfaction with the regulator’s skills base and had ‘‘major concerns with the quality and cost of the services’’ provided to the regulator by the Central Bank.

In 2007 transcripts of phone calls by the FR's senior staff suggest they gave tacit approval to the illicit movement of deposits involving Irish Life and Permanent.

The FR also knew that Allied Irish Banks were overcharging consumers in FX fees but failed to act for a number of years and gave a parliamentary inquiry the "false impression" that they were unaware of it. Ignorance is bliss!

In 2008 Fine Gael leader Enda Kenny and finance spokesman Richard Bruton called for the board and senior management of the FR to be sacked. Independent Senator, Shane Ross said that the FR was an institution which had lost the faith of the international markets.

In 2009 Ernst & Young was hired to advise the FR on the €440 billion bank guarantee scheme, despite the fact that Ernst & Young were being investigated arising from its audits of Anglo Irish Bank, and had also refused to appear before a parliamentary committee following the collapse of the same bank after receiving "legal advice".

The FR also blocked insurers and banks from making any critical statements containing "any references to the Financial Regulator" by means either of "public press statements" or un-approved public references, whether "written or oral."

Later the same year the head of the German Financial Regulator told the Bundestag Finance Committee that the failure of the "terrible" Depfa Bank, which was completely supervised by the Irish Financial Regulator, lead to the collapse of its German parent which forced Berlin to bail it out at a cost of €102 billion. The committee was told that the alternative was a run on German banks and the eventual collapse of the European finance system and “You would have woken up on Monday morning in the film Apocalypse Now.” The small bank had only just 319 employees but was allowed to guarantee loans valued at 14 times Ireland's Gross Domestic Product. A former Governor of the FR's parent, which is the Central Bank of Ireland, was a director of Depfa. Little wonder Angela Merkel won't play ball with us!

Transparency International have questioned whether the FR should continue to have an exemption from Freedom of Information legislation. Compliance experts have said "the most offensive confidentiality provision in Ireland is the one which protects the Financial Regulator." Both the Financial Services Ombudsman and the Information Commissioner, among others, have called for a lifting of the confidentiality applied by the regulator to much of its work. Other EU Financial Regulators have a policy of transparency.

The FR had to admit that it had issued private warnings to over 30% of credit unions about their arrears levels, but refused to provide full updates on what percentage of Credit Union loans were in arrears or how quickly they are increasing. Which also raised questions about the FR's commitment to openness.

Former Taoiseach Bertie Ahern, in a report in the Financial Times said that his decision in 2001 to create a new Financial Regulator was one of the main reasons for the collapse of the Irish banking sector and (use your best Dublin accent for thsi piece) “if I had a chance again I wouldn't do it”. He also said "The banks were irresponsible," and admitted "Both the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator seemed happy. They were never into us saying – ever – 'Listen, we must put legislation and control on the banks'. That never happened."

The director general of the Free Legal Advice Centres said, the code of conduct on mortgage arrears produced by the FR was "deeply disappointing", and did not offer enough protection for consumers.

In a speech, the Governor of the Central Bank said that "ignorance and inattention" by FR staff were to blame for regulatory failure.

The Consumer Consultative Panel said that they were unable to function for almost a year because officials ignored requests for meetings and "we believe it is unacceptable that the board of the Financial Regulator has failed to take responsibility for their stewardship of the organisation during the last six years. It seems the FR did not understand many of the sectors and financial products it was supposedly regulating.

In 2010 the Controller and Auditor General called for the FR to give an annual statement to the Dáil on bank supervision and to make regulation ‘‘more accountable’’ after highlighting shortcomings in financial regulation leading up to the financial crisis.

The new FR's Chief Executive outlined his shock at the poor level of financial regulation he discovered when he under took his new post. "It is clear to me we need to undertake a fundamental overhaul of the regulatory model for financial services in Ireland.'' He also pointed out that there was a"critical absence of intellectual firepower within his staff.''

High risk and sloppy lending practices at the Irish Nationwide Building Society were reported to the FR by external accountants over a long period of time but did not change its behaviour.The former head of compliance, became a whistle blower by reporting "dodgy practices" but again the authorities did nothing. It later required a €5.4 billion Government bailout, leaving it effectively in State ownership.

A letter which the FR received concerning the legality of the illicit loans by the Building Society to Sean FitzPatrick had "gone missing". Management at Irish Nationwide usually arranged meetings with the FR for late Friday afternoons, knowing full well that the regulator's staff would not want for the encounter to last for more than an hour or so, because it would nibble into their weekends.

It also emerged that the FR authorised the Quinn Group (which subsequently went into administration) to borrow €169 million from Anglo Irish Bank in order to buy Anglo Irish shares (which subsequently had to be nationalised at a cost of €5,500 for every man, woman and child in the State). Its actions were described as "like the Vatican running an abortion clinic."

On her State tour to Russia, the President Mary McAleese, highlighting the importance of competence, as she launched an unprecedented attack on the FR for their role in the financial crisis which resulted in tens of thousands of people out of work and in mortgage arrears.

About the same time, it was reported that the German television station ZDF, in a programme filmed in Ireland on banking said, ‘‘it is an open secret that the rules here are not exactly strict’’.

Criminal prosecutions by An Garda Siochana against managers in banks who committed offences are being seriously undermined as the FR were well aware of the alleged offences but took no action to stop them. Thus provided an arguable defence to those who committed wrongdoing, as they could reasonably claim they were acting with the approval of the regulatory authorities at all times.

The Financial Regulator officially the Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority, was the single regulator of all financial institutions in Ireland from May 2003 until October 2010 and was a "constituent part" of the Central Bank of Ireland. It was re-unified with the Central Bank of Ireland on 1 October 2010 and its board structure was replaced by a new Central Bank of Ireland Commission.

Matthew Elderfield, formerly head of the Bermuda Monetary Authority, led the organisation from January 2010 until it was disestablished in November 2010. The previous chief executive officer was Patrick Neary, who retired early over the handling of the regulator's investigation into the €87 million in secret directors' loans at Anglo Irish Bank.The incumbent before that, had companies he is a director of, fined a total of €3.35 million by his previous employers the FR, for risk control and reporting failures.

Within days, after the arrival in Ireland of the International Monetary Fund, and following the stress tests on banks, which the FR conducted 4 months earlier. The IMF spoke of how the test had "failed to convince financial markets and that the level of capital the banks required needed to be increased by 50 per cent.

So folks, there you have!

It seems too easy to blame the local guy knocking on your door who promises to ''change the world'' while looking for your vote. Of the nice lady behind the glass at the bank counter. Go figure!

Goes as far back as 1998, the Irish Central Bank issued warnings on how some were getting deposits on houses, borrowing from Credit Unions for example. Nobody listened, Government, opposition, employers, Unions, consumers.