Best chin ever ??

tryingmybestt

who had the best beard ever in boxing....

my top few would be...

steve collins
rocky marciano
jake la motta
hagler
wayne mccullough
julio cesar chavez

sxt

Vitali Klitschko has the best chin of the current boxing generation and will go down as having one of the best chins ever in my opinion . A Boxer who has never been knocked down in his professional career

Check out this big right hand and two brutal uppercuts( the one at 9 seconds especially!) By Lennox Lewis

* Vitali is fighting with a badly damaged and blinded lefteye, which needed 120 inner stiches and 60 outer stiches post fight btw : ouch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiC-n9-XqL4

walshb

Really there should be two lists; the heavyweights and then those below heavyweight.

At HW we have Mercer, McCall, Tyson, Vit Klit, Holyfield, Tua from recent years.

Foreman, Ali, Holmes, and Chuvalo from later years. Chuvalo probably had the toughest chin of the lot. He consistently took flush bombs throughout his career.

Liston also had a solid chin.

Below heavyweight the lists are endless.

Toney, Hagler, Chavez, Oscar, McCullough, Morales, Sanchez, McGuigan, McClellan, McCallum, Pryor, Qawi, Collins, Eubank, LaPorte, Orlando Canizales et al

Wild_Dogger

Mosley

HovaBaby

George Chuvalo.

walshb

Also I feel there are two types of chin, just plain rock solid, and then those whose chins are very good, but it's their conditioning and recovery that allow them to shake off a shot.

Rock solid are: Hagler, Chuvalo, Toney, Foreman (maybe), Mercer, McCall, Klit, Ali (later career) LaMotta, and I believe Mike Tyson. You know, the head and neck on most of these guys have that solid and square appearance. Physiology definiely plays a part.

The very good chins are SRL, Calzaghe, Oscar, Mosley, Holmes, Pryor, Holyfield.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Also I feel there are two types of chin, just plain rock solid, and then those whose chins are very good, but it's their conditioning and recovery that allow them to shake off a shot.

Rock solid are: Hagler, Chuvalo, Toney, Foreman (maybe), Mercer, McCall, Klit, Ali (later career) LaMotta, and I believe Mike Tyson. You know, the head and neck on most of these guys have that solid and square appearance. Physiology definiely plays a part.

The very good chins are SRL, Calzaghe, Oscar, Mosley, Holmes, Pryor, Holyfield.

i'd add to that....some chins are because of mental toughness and determination....most notably Ali.....the speed he got up from frazier's hook was unbelievable....he refused to stay down....that punch would have finished most...especially late in the fight....

naseem hamed also had a solid chin and also a fighter called injin chi.....he fought morales and brodie etc.

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i'd add to that....some chins are because of mental toughness and determination....most notably Ali.....the speed he got up from frazier's hook was unbelievable....he refused to stay down....that punch would have finished most...especially late in the fight....

naseem hamed also had a solid chin and also a fighter called injin chi.....he fought morales and brodie etc.

I am unsure with Hamed. He was hurt several times by shots, and shots that were not massive. He could take a dig, but I wouldn't grade his chin as A. Good, but not something I'd rave about.

As for "mental" toughness; well, who can put their finger on this? It's an innate trait that a fighter has. Best to put it down to stamina and conditioning. No matter how mentally tough you are, if you get whacked and are not in great shape, and do not possess a naturally steel chin, you are doomed.

I would argue that most, if not all fighters refuse to stay down in their heads and minds and spirits. What gets some up and some not up is their conditioning and stamina, or lack thereof.

Hatton probaly wanted to get up when whacked by Pacman, but the shot was too heavy, and Hatton's chin
was not steel enough to prevent it dropping him. Also, I am sure he was in shape, after all it was only rd 2, but the power and connection from the shot was too much.

It adds another dimension to the argument. If the shot really is bang on perfect, then I say only those with the steel chins have a chance to survive. The Chuvalo's, Hagler's and McCall's and Mercer's of this world.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

I am unsure with Hamed. He was hurt several times by shots, and shots that were not massive. He could take a dig, but I wouldn't grade his chin as A. Good, but not something I'd rave about.

As for "mental" toughness; well, who can put their finger on this? It's an innate trait that a fighter has. Best to put it down to stamina and conditioning. No matter how mentally tough you are, if you get whacked and are not in great shape, and do not possess a naturally steel chin, you are doomed.

I would argue that most, if not all fighters refuse to stay down in their heads and minds and spirits. What gets some up and some not up is their conditioning and stamina, or lack thereof.

Hatton probaly wanted to get up when whacked by Pacman, but the shot was too heavy, and Hatton's chin
was not steel enough to prevent it dropping him. Also, I am sure he was in shape, after all it was only rd 2, but the power and connection from the shot was too much.

It adds another dimension to the argument. If the shot really is bang on perfect, then I say only those with the steel chins have a chance to survive. The Chuvalo's, Hagler's and McCall's and Mercer's of this world.

i firmly believe that mental toughness plays a huge role in ones ability to take a shot....in the club i boxed for, one of the lads who's chin was normally rock solid in sparring got clipped and dropped.....after that shot he was always afraid and wary and everytime he was clipped cleanly he would wobble or go down......i think mental toughness is just as important as the physical when it comes to taking a shot.....some ppl are just afraid of the unknown and others just refuse to be hurt e.g. ali, frazier......

i also feel that the right shot can knock anyone out e.g. pacman v hatton.....but i think the mental determination plays a role

AllGunsBlazing

In his prime Eubank could take a good shot. I remember Benn hitting him with everything bar the kitchen sink in their first fight. Michael Watson gave him a pretty good going over as well before Eubank turned it around.

tryingmybestt

AllGunsBlazing wrote: »

In his prime Eubank could take a good shot. I remember Benn hitting him with everything bar the kitchen sink in their first fight. Michael Watson gave him a pretty good going over as well before Eubank turned it around.

definitely agree....eubank was tough....he was very mentally strong and positive

collins said benn hit him with the hardest shot ever.....testement to collins rock solid beard......what an era in british boxing

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i firmly believe that mental toughness plays a huge role in ones ability to take a shot....in the club i boxed for, one of the lads who's chin was normally rock solid in sparring got clipped and dropped.....after that shot he was always afraid and wary and everytime he was clipped cleanly he would wobble or go down......i think mental toughness is just as important as the physical when it comes to taking a shot.....some ppl are just afraid of the unknown and others just refuse to be hurt e.g. ali, frazier......

i also feel that the right shot can knock anyone out e.g. pacman v hatton.....but i think the mental determination plays a role

My point is that mental toughness is very difficult to see, quantify, look at or measure. It's inside a person's mind, heart etc.

Some fighters are mentally sound, but their chins, head and neck muscles just are not good enough to take certain shots. It's physiology as well.

Then there is conditioning. Some fighters are mentally sound, good chins, but lack ultra stamina, hence they can suffer from taking a big shot more than an the same fighter who has that extra stamina and conditioning.

Take Ali. He had a great chin, heart and mentally tough, but take away the other thing he had, GREAT stamina, and we can't be sure he takes Foreman's shots, Frazier's hook/hooks or Shavers bombs

The whole chin debate takes in so much areas. Age and maturity and effective weight gain also play a part in a fighters ability to take a shot, absorb a shot, and shake off the effects of a shot(s).

Clay/Ali is a perfect example. As a young and less mature and lighter man Clay was hurt badly on several occassions.
I am very confident that the older, heavier and more physically and mentally mature Ali takes those shots a hell of a lot better.

Frazier may well have refused to be hurt, but that did not stop Foreman hurting him real bad.

Like I said, all top fighters usually have great determination, heart and mental toughness, it is an absolute must to make it to the top. But, some take a shot better because they have naturally great chins, or that their conditioning is superb. Relating to stamina, sub the words very good for superb, and many may not take the shots as good.

Khan is a great example. Bags of stamina and has heart and is mentally tough, but he reacts a little bad when hit solid. Physiologically he does not possess the chin and neck and head to absord a solid blow like others can.

HovaBaby

walshb, how do you think Ali got up so quick from Frazier left hook in the 15th round of Ali-Frazier 1? Ali was up in 3 seconds! That Frazier left hook could take men off their feet.

walshb

HovaBaby wrote: »

walshb, how do you think Ali got up so quick from Frazier left hook in the 15th round of Ali-Frazier 1? Ali was up in 3 seconds! That Frazier left hook could take men off their feet.

Because he has a great chin, is well conditioned and is a true legend.

Why are you asking? Does my post above contradict this view?

Like I said. Many things added up contribute to a fighter's ability to take a shot and shake a shot.

HovaBaby

Some people think going down is a symptom of a bad chin.

megadodge

Good discussion.

Rather than add anything on the 'whys' and 'hows', I really can't look past one man when it comes to chin - Oliver McCall.

Better than Chuvalo as he was up against much bigger men and he was never stopped (unlike Chuvalo) and even way, way into his 40's he still hasn't been floored. Actually, it's safe to say he has never even been wobbled. He just seems to ignore punches.

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

Good discussion.

Rather than add anything on the 'whys' and 'hows', I really can't look past one man when it comes to chin - Oliver McCall.

Better than Chuvalo as he was up against much bigger men and he was never stopped (unlike Chuvalo) and even way, way into his 40's he still hasn't been floored. Actually, it's safe to say he has never even been wobbled. He just seems to ignore punches.

Yes, he was like an oak tree. Head is square, big shoulders and a thick neck.

I saw Chuvalo stagged only once, against Foreman when he was backed into a corner and tagged. He looked badly shaken.

walshb

HovaBaby wrote: »

Some people think going down is a symptom of a bad chin.

I don't. Depends on how they go down. Getting up and recovering is the key, hence why I said that it's not just the chin and head, it's the conditioning and stamina as well. Add in age, weight, maturity etc, and it is complex.

phily2002

Ibeabuchi- short career but the shots he took against Tua were unreal
Billy Graham - over a hundred fights and never down
Mayorga - punches finally caught up with him in the Tito fight, but unreal chin
Marion Wilson - a journey man but only stopped once, fought a lot of names as well

Wild_Dogger

Well what about the chin hagler had? .........

phily2002

Wild_Dogger wrote: »

Well what about the chin hagler had? .........

pure awsome, never down(besides a slip that was counted) don't think he was even wobbled in a fight!

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

My point is that mental toughness is very difficult to see, quantify, look at or measure. It's inside a person's mind, heart etc.

Some fighters are mentally sound, but their chins, head and neck muscles just are not good enough to take certain shots. It's physiology as well.

Then there is conditioning. Some fighters are mentally sound, good chins, but lack ultra stamina, hence they can suffer from taking a big shot more than an the same fighter who has that extra stamina and conditioning.

Take Ali. He had a great chin, heart and mentally tough, but take away the other thing he had, GREAT stamina, and we can't be sure he takes Foreman's shots, Frazier's hook/hooks or Shavers bombs

The whole chin debate takes in so much areas. Age and maturity and effective weight gain also play a part in a fighters ability to take a shot, absorb a shot, and shake off the effects of a shot(s).

Clay/Ali is a perfect example. As a young and less mature and lighter man Clay was hurt badly on several occassions.
I am very confident that the older, heavier and more physically and mentally mature Ali takes those shots a hell of a lot better.

Frazier may well have refused to be hurt, but that did not stop Foreman hurting him real bad.

Like I said, all top fighters usually have great determination, heart and mental toughness, it is an absolute must to make it to the top. But, some take a shot better because they have naturally great chins, or that their conditioning is superb. Relating to stamina, sub the words very good for superb, and many may not take the shots as good.

Khan is a great example. Bags of stamina and has heart and is mentally tough, but he reacts a little bad when hit solid. Physiologically he does not possess the chin and neck and head to absord a solid blow like others can.

i don't think you can put khan's lack of a chin down to just physical...although he is fit and determined etc. i would also put his lack of a chin down to a chink in his mental toughness......i don't think he belives in his chin and he lacks confidence that he can take a shot.....when some ppl get hit by a shot they immediately fight the urge to be dazed and their mental toughness kicks in.....other when they feel the same diziness they panic and allow the shot to overcome them.......this comes down to mental toughness and determination.....

ali took such a great shot because of his strong character....he was one of the most determined fighters/people in history, inside boxing and out.....he prob took a better shot later in his career because at that stage he was fighting for a cause and he had the people of the world supporting him, early in his career he was hated and wasn't respected.....

there is no doubt a fighters mental toughness contributes largely to his ability to take a shot....i would say this is even more important to their physical make up......this is a topic ive discussed with many fighters in the past and most would agree with this

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i don't think you can put khan's lack of a chin down to just physical...although he is fit and determined etc. i would also put his lack of a chin down to a chink in his mental toughness......i don't think he belives in his chin and he lacks confidence that he can take a shot.....when some ppl get hit by a shot they immediately fight the urge to be dazed and their mental toughness kicks in.....other when they feel the same diziness they panic and allow the shot to overcome them.......this comes down to mental toughness and determination.....

ali took such a great shot because of his strong character....he was one of the most determined fighters/people in history, inside boxing and out.....he prob took a better shot later in his career because at that stage he was fighting for a cause and he had the people of the world supporting him, early in his career he was hated and wasn't respected.....

there is no doubt a fighters mental toughness contributes largely to his ability to take a shot....i would say this is even more important to their physical make up......this is a topic ive discussed with many fighters in the past and most would agree with this

I disagree. You seem to be implying that is mostly due to this "hidden" trait called mental toughness. I do believe this is a trait one cannot measure, and I also believe that most top fighters possess mental toughness. It's an essential, but sometimes, a man just has not got a great chin. Simple.

Oliver McCall showed signs of poor heart and mentality, but, the guy's chin was always solid, because, as Lady Gaga would say, he was born that way. Physiology gave him that tremendous chin, nothing to do with being mentally sound. He had a mental breakdown vs. Lewis, and still was walking thru some real solid shots with no physical showing of being at all hurt.

Chin has got to do with, in order of importance: 1. Physiology. Tha actual physical make up of a mans body, head, neck and chin. 2. Conditioning and Stamina. The level of fitness he has, that can allow a good and speedy recovery from a heavy shot. 3. Physical Maturity and Experience, and effective weight gain. 4. That hidden and dificult trait to measure, mental fitness/detemination/courage. BUT, points 2, 3 and 4 are of little use if you do not have
a good chin to BEGIN with. So, point 1 is the essential. If you don't have a naturally steel chin (just a good chin), then points 2,3 and 4 should help you.

Ali possessed a very good chin to begin with, and what made it even better was points 2, 3 and 4. Oliver McCall and Chuvalo had natural steel chins. Points 2, 3 and 4 for these kind of men are not as important as they would be to the likes of say Calzaghe or SRL.

To Khan again. Him getting wickedly Ko'd vs. Prescott had ZERO to do with his state of mind or determination or heart or guts. It was to do with his lacking a naturally good chin. Look at him vs. Craig Watson as an amateur; again, on queer street from a shot. Limond, had him badly hurt from a shot. What else can you put the Prescott loss down to? Nothing to do with stamina. He got hit, and his physical body, head and neck and chin and legs reacted badly. Nothing to do with his mental state at all.

Clay proves my points. As a younger fighter and weiging less he was badly shaken and almost KO'd. This had zero to do with his courage, determination or mental state of mind. He always had these traits. He simply reacted less effectively to a heavy shot because he was younger, not physically at peak maturity, and weighing a deal less than his later years. Absorption of a shot is realated to more than just physical chin and mental state of mind.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

I disagree. You seem to be implying that is mostly due to this "hidden" trait called mental toughness. I do believe this is a trait one cannot measure, and I also believe that most top fighters possess mental toughness. It's an essential, but sometimes, a man just has not got a great chin. Simple.

Oliver McCall showed signs of poor heart and mentality, but, the guy's chin was always solid, because he was born that way. Physiology gave him that tremendous chin, nothing to do with being mentally sound. He had a mental breakdown vs. Lewis, and still was walking thru some real solid shots with no physical showing of being at all hurt.

Chin has got to do with: In order of importance, 1.Physiology. Tha actual physical make up of a mans body, head, neck and chin. 2. Conditioning and Stamina; the level of fitness he has, that can allow a good and speedy recovery from a heavy shot. 3. Physical Maturity and Experience, and effective weight gain. 4. That hidden and dificult trait to measure, mental fitness/detemination/courage. BUT, points 2, 3 and 4 are of little use if you do not have
a good chin to BEGIN with. So, point 1 is the eseential. If you don't have a naturally steel chin (just a good chin), then points 2,3 and 4 should help you.

Ali possessed a very good chin to begin with, and what made it even better was points 2, 3 and 4. Oliver McCall and Chuvalo had natural steel chins. Points 2, 3 and 4 for these kind of men are not as important as they would be to the likes of say Calzaghe or SRL.

To Khan again. Him getting wickedly Ko'd vs. Prescott had ZERO to do with his state of mind or determination or heart or guts. It was to do with his lacking a naturally good chin. Look at him vs. Craig Watson as an amateur; again, on queer street from a shot. Limond, had him badly hurt from a shot. What else can you put the Prescott loss down to? Nothing to do with stamina. He got hit, and his physical body, head and neck and chin and legs reacted badly. Nothing to do with his mental state at all.

Clay proves my points. As a younger fighter and weiging less he was badly shaken and almost KO'd. This had zero to do with his courage, determination or mental state of mind. He always had these traits. He simply reacted less effectively to a heavy shot because he was younger, not physically at peak maturity, and weighing a deal less than his later years. Absorption of a shot is realated to more than just physical chin and mental state of mind.

i don't agree that mental toughness doesn't play an important part to the ability of a fighter to withstand a hard shot......i think it plays a crucial part !

the fact that khan was rocked so often in his early career e.g. limond etc.....as well as in the amateurs....this was in part due to his physical ability but also his mental ability to take a shot.....by the time he fought prescott deep down he had no confidence in his ability to take a shot so when the shot landed he didn't know how to instinctively overide the shock and confusion and fight on....instead he was consumed by the shock and this was because he had no confidence in his chin.....the physical make up also plays a crucial part but i don't agree with your point that the mental side only plays a minor role with one's ability to take a shot....

as i said before i think Ali could take a better shot later in his career due to the he fact he had more mental resolve as he now stood for so much e.g. not fighting in the war, civil rights, nation of islam etc. etc. ....he now had the ppl of the world behind him rather than against him and he understood the significance of his fights......this inspired him and made him a much more determined fighter.....i don't think that the few extra pounds of fat that he put on later in his career helped his chin....i think physically Ali was at his peak in fights like v Williams etc.......

Mental toughness is key to taking a good shot ....No doubt !

walshb

Again, how does one see, determine, spot or measure mental toughness?

Khan got whacked by a heavy shot and dropped. He showed real courage to try so hard to get up. No menatl lapse there.

I never said "mental toughness" was not a factor. It is, but it is down the pecking order, and I have given examples to back up my claim.

Lennox Lewis? Got whacked badly by McCall. He showed extreme character, courage and mental strength to get back in that ring and beat Oliver.

THEN, he got badly knocked out again. This was NOT due to suddenly "losing" his mental strength. He just got hit perfectly with a whopper, plain and simple.
And, his chin couldn't withstand it. Maybe a McCall, Tyson, Chuvalo or Ali would have taken it, because their chins IMO were a grade better than Lennox Lewis's. Not because their mental strength was better. As I said, Oliver was far from mentally a stable fighter, at times. Tyson too showed mental fragility. Still he could take a hell of a shot, because he was born with a very god beard.

Some of the toughest fighters mentally have suffered KO losses. How do you explain this? It's due to getting whacked by great shots and their chins not saving them.

Herol Graham? What caused him to get badly Ko'd? Lacking mental toughness, his chin, or the whopper he got caught with, because maybe even Hagler would have fallen IF that shot tagged him?

I ask you: What is most important to taking a shot? The invisible and hidden trait called mental toughness, or a naturally good chin?

Bear in mind that many mentally tough men have been knocked out.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

Again, how does one see, determine, spot or measure mental toughness?

Khan got whacked by a heavy shot and dropped. He showed real courage to try so hard to get up. No menatl lapse there.

I never said "mental toughness" was not a factor. It is, but it is down the pecking order, and I have given examples to back up my claim.

Lennox Lewis? Got whacked badly by McCall. He showed extreme character, courage and mental strength to get back in that ring and beat Oliver.

THEN, he got badly knocked out again. This was NOT due to suddenly "losing" his mental strength. He just got hit perfectly with a whopper, plain and simple.
And, his chin couldn't withstand it. Maybe a McCall, Tyson, Chuvalo or Ali would have taken it, because their chins IMO were a grade better than Lennox Lewis's. Not because their mental strength was better. As I said, Oliver was far from mentally a stable fighter, at times. Tyson too showed mental fragility. Still he could take a hell of a shot, because he was born with a very god beard.

Some of the toughest fighters mentally have suffered KO losses. How do you explain this? It's due to getting whacked by great shots and their chins not saving them.

Herol Graham? What caused him to get badly Ko'd? Lacking mental toughness, his chin, or the whopper he got caught with, because maybe even Hagler would have fallen IF that shot tagged him?

I ask you: What is most important to taking a shot? The invisible and hidden trait called mental toughness, or a naturally good chin?

Bear in mind that many mentally tough men have been knocked out.

how does one measure love or any emotion???....just because one can't put a measuring stick against it doesn't mean it doesn't exist !

i think mental toughness is obvious in fighters by their refusal to quit, their persistence and determination in the face of adversity.....e.g. mickey ward, gatti, froch, ali etc..........fighters i would class as mentally weak are cintron, michael spinks, bruno etc.....these weaker fighters are terrified of being knocked out, they don't have that belief that other fighters have that noone can hurt them, whether true or not...

lewis got whacked but he could be vulnerable sometimes.....also sometimes a shot is that good that nothing will help the guy....but i believe that mental toughness is more important that physical make up......i don't believe it would matter what physical mickey ward, gatti or wayne mccullough had....they were just determined warriors who refused to be hurt ....

just because you can't physically see mental toughness like you can see speed and power, i think it's ridiculous to deny it's importance.....any fighter/trainer will confirm this .....the first think a trainer looks for in a young fighter is the right mentality in terms of aggression, toughness, bravery and determination....if the fighter has these qualities he can learn everything else...without these he is nothing, regardless of his physical ability....i again point to cintron, probably pound 4 pound one of the hardest hitters in boxing today, also at welterweight he was a monster, yet he didn't achieve what he should because he was mentally weak!

without a doubt mental toughness is more important than physical make up when it comes to making a shot.....but physical make up is also important but as i said before without the right mentality it doesn't matter about the physical !

gene_tunney

Wut.

If someone punches you and you get knocked out cold, it has nothing to do with mental toughness.

What happened is the brain shook against the skull and caused a momentary lapse of consciousness. Nothing to do with heart or mental toughness.

walshb

You keep bringing up "refused to be hurt." How many men have had that attitude and still never got up off the canvas?

Every TOP fighter has a certain level of mental strength and character. You cannot apply the logic that because some don't get knocked out, as opposed to some who do, that those who do not get knocked out are therefore mentally tougher.

How can you possibly tell, measure or compare the mental toughness of one man over another based off one man getting knocked out to another not getting knocked out?

I have said it many times, some of the toughest fighters in mind and body have been knocked out.

Mental toughness is important, but not to the same extent as Physiology, stamina and conditioning. I don't give a toss how "mentally" stable you are, if you do not have the stamina, OR do not have a solid chin/face/head, you will go down from a heavy punch.

tryingmybestt

i'd disagree with that ....sometimes there is a shot that can knock anyone down

an example i would give would be when frazier decked ali......ali got straight back up....a lot of other fighters like judah, bruno, cintron etc. wouldn't have gotten up IMO

this is my opinion, based on experience

tryingmybestt

i'd disagree with that ....sometimes there is a shot that can knock anyone down

an example i would give would be when frazier decked ali......ali got straight back up....a lot of other fighters like judah, bruno, cintron etc. wouldn't have gotten up IMO

this is my opinion, based on experience

walshb

tryingmybestt wrote: »

i'd disagree with that ....sometimes there is a shot that can knock anyone down

an example i would give would be when frazier decked ali......ali got straight back up....a lot of other fighters like judah, bruno, cintron etc. wouldn't have gotten up IMO

this is my opinion, based on experience

But don't you think they wouldn't have gotten up because their chins aren't as good??????? And, Judah is a WW, as is Cintron;)

This is the whole point. SOME men have better chins than others, nothing to do with comparing their mental strength.

I can give hundreds of examples of men refusing to be hurt and desperately trying to continue but failing.

Here are two: Trevor Berbick vs. Mike Tyson. One of the most courageous displays of "refusing to quit" I have ever seen. Berbick was up and down, up and down, up and down; but still couldn't get his body together.

Lewis vs. McCall? Lewis desperately tried to get up and continue. Refused to lay down.

Bruno was almost always on his feet when he was getting stopped. Courageous man if ever I saw one.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

But don't you think they wouldn't have gotten up because their chins aren't as good??????? And, Judah is a WW, as is Cintron;)

This is the whole point. SOME men have better chins that others, nothing to do with comparing their mental strength.

I can give hundreds of examples of men refusing to be hurt and desperately trying to continue but failing.

Here are two: Trevor Berbick vs. Mike Tyson. One of the most courageous displays of "refusing to quit" I have ever seen. Berbick was up and down, up and down, up and down; but still couldn't get his body together.

Lewis vs. McCall? Lewis desperately tried to get up and continue. Refused to lay down.

Bruno was almost always on his feet when he was getting stopped. Courageous man if ever I saw one.

we'll have to agree to disagree....

you feel the physical is more important to taking a good shot than the mental and i believe the opposite...

although i think we both agree that both qualities are important

StevePH

Have to give props to WalshB for the list of names he put up

Regarding the bigger men, I have to agree with VK and McCall.
To the list, I would also add Lyle - one tough mofo. Without a basic/decent guard, he withstood (for quite some time) a barrage of heavy, flush shots from Big George that would have necessitated medical attention for other men.

As for the smaller men, what a beard McCullough had - hope his later years are ok.

tryingmybestt

yeah mccullough took so much punishment

his best defence was his hard head......interestingly enough he said morales was the biggest puncher he ever fought....high praise considering he fought the prince

another guy with an unbelievable chin was Ben Tackie......tszyu knew this so decided to box him.....hatton did it with body shots

walshb

Another couple of not so well known ones are Doug DeWitt, rock solid chin, and Sakio Bika.

Dohnny Jepp

Statistically it would have to be Vitali, right?

As it stands, he has never been knocked down. Would that not definitively suggest that he has the best chin of any boxer ever

StevePH

Dohnny Jepp wrote: »

Statistically it would have to be Vitali, right?

As it stands, he has never been knocked down. Would that not definitively suggest that he has the best chin of any boxer ever

Ye could argue (Lewis excepted), he's never faced the right opposition to really test him.

StevePH

tryingmybestt wrote: »

yeah mccullough took so much punishment

his best defence was his hard head......interestingly enough he said morales was the biggest puncher he ever fought....high praise considering he fought the prince

another guy with an unbelievable chin was Ben Tackie......tszyu knew this so decided to box him.....hatton did it with body shots

...think I read somewhere Hatton complained of the toughness of Tackie's HEAD (as in rock hard, not used to butt) rather than his chin

walshb

Dohnny Jepp wrote: »

Statistically it would have to be Vitali, right?

As it stands, he has never been knocked down. Would that not definitively suggest that he has the best chin of any boxer ever

No. It cannot work like that. One must look at the opposition and actually analyse the shots taken. I haven't seen enough Vit action to support this claim. I agree his chin is solid, but best ever is too difficult to say, for any fighter.

Even McCall; renowned as having a great chin. I would love to see a highlight reel of him withstanding some solid bombs to really gauge how good the chin was. I know he sparred Tyson many many times and never went down. That backs it up somewhat, but I would still like to see a fight highlight reel. He also walked thru Lewis's good shots, and took some whacks from Bruno without flinching. Both Lewis and Bruno could really whack.

HovaBaby

gene_tunney wrote: »

Wut.

If someone punches you and you get knocked out cold, it has nothing to do with mental toughness.

What happened is the brain shook against the skull and caused a momentary lapse of consciousness. Nothing to do with heart or mental toughness.

Are you sure this is the reason of unconsciousness? Ali fought against murderers like Foreman, Shavers, Frazier. He took their best shots but was never knocked unconscious.

Cassius Clay/up to '67 Ali was much harder to hit, Liston didn't get him with much clean blows, sure not even one in the 2nd fight. I think the above priniciple holds stronger in the 2nd part of Ali's career.

cowzerp

Mccullogh, Collins stand out as 2 savage chin's to me, i would have to add in Big George, i've seen him hit punches that would knock out an elephant and just walk through them!!

walshb

HovaBaby wrote: »

Are you sure this is the reason of unconsciousness? Ali fought against murderers like Foreman, Shavers, Frazier. He took their best shots but was never knocked unconscious.

Cassius Clay/up to '67 Ali was much harder to hit, Liston didn't get him with much clean blows, sure not even one in the 2nd fight. I think the above priniciple holds stronger in the 2nd part of Ali's career.

Yes, but also, Ali in 1962/1963 and 1964 was still a young fighter, physically he had not matured. He still had a very decent chin; but I believe that maturing and strength as he got older definitely helped him.

Sonny Banks badly hurt him; Cooper had him out on his feet. Aged 21 or so, still far from fully matured. I really doubt those shots would have affected him that much had he been 27/28/29 etc.

"Mental toughness" helps, but it's useless if you do not have a good chin to begin with, OR if you are not in good physical condition as regards stamina and endurance, particularly in the later rds.

Jayob10

walshb wrote: »

I disagree. You seem to be implying that is mostly due to this "hidden" trait called mental toughness. I do believe this is a trait one cannot measure, and I also believe that most top fighters possess mental toughness. It's an essential, but sometimes, a man just has not got a great chin. Simple.

Oliver McCall showed signs of poor heart and mentality, but, the guy's chin was always solid, because, as Lady Gaga would say, he was born that way. Physiology gave him that tremendous chin, nothing to do with being mentally sound. He had a mental breakdown vs. Lewis, and still was walking thru some real solid shots with no physical showing of being at all hurt.

Chin has got to do with, in order of importance: 1. Physiology. Tha actual physical make up of a mans body, head, neck and chin. 2. Conditioning and Stamina. The level of fitness he has, that can allow a good and speedy recovery from a heavy shot. 3. Physical Maturity and Experience, and effective weight gain. 4. That hidden and dificult trait to measure, mental fitness/detemination/courage. BUT, points 2, 3 and 4 are of little use if you do not have
a good chin to BEGIN with. So, point 1 is the essential. If you don't have a naturally steel chin (just a good chin), then points 2,3 and 4 should help you.

Ali possessed a very good chin to begin with, and what made it even better was points 2, 3 and 4. Oliver McCall and Chuvalo had natural steel chins. Points 2, 3 and 4 for these kind of men are not as important as they would be to the likes of say Calzaghe or SRL.

To Khan again. Him getting wickedly Ko'd vs. Prescott had ZERO to do with his state of mind or determination or heart or guts. It was to do with his lacking a naturally good chin. Look at him vs. Craig Watson as an amateur; again, on queer street from a shot. Limond, had him badly hurt from a shot. What else can you put the Prescott loss down to? Nothing to do with stamina. He got hit, and his physical body, head and neck and chin and legs reacted badly. Nothing to do with his mental state at all.

Clay proves my points. As a younger fighter and weiging less he was badly shaken and almost KO'd. This had zero to do with his courage, determination or mental state of mind. He always had these traits. He simply reacted less effectively to a heavy shot because he was younger, not physically at peak maturity, and weighing a deal less than his later years. Absorption of a shot is realated to more than just physical chin and mental state of mind.

You've outdone yourself here Walshb, superb analysis of what contributes to a good chin, kudos to you on that.

I will add one disclaimer in relation to Khan. When people talk about his glass chin they don't realise that his chin is not actually all that bad. He panics when tagged on the chin but with experience this will improve.

Khans problem is when he is caught around the side of the head or temple. Its a very dangerous shot for him as it leaves him clearly disoriented, and i've seen this happen with amateur fighters I would know too. Again its all about the physiology make up of a person.

walshb

Jayob10 wrote: »

You've outdone yourself here Walshb, superb analysis of what contributes to a good chin, kudos to you on that.

I will add one disclaimer in relation to Khan. When people talk about his glass chin they don't realise that his chin is not actually all that bad. He panics when tagged on the chin but with experience this will improve.

Khans problem is when he is caught around the side of the head or temple. Its a very dangerous shot for him as it leaves him clearly disoriented, and i've seen this happen with amateur fighters I would know too. Again its all about the physiology make up of a person.

And Khan is showing good improvement. LP hit him with many good flush shots and Amir reacted quite okay to them. Maturity, strength and experience all can help a man react better to a clean shot. But, as we both have said, physiology is just so important.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Mccullogh, Collins stand out as 2 savage chin's to me, i would have to add in Big George, i've seen him hit punches that would knock out an elephant and just walk through them!!

And when one looks at Collins, he has that square and solid look to his head. It is like a cavity block.

Hagler I believe had his head examined and it was reported that his skull was harder and thicker than the average skull. Hagler's head didn't have a square appearance.

Spazdarn

walshb wrote: »

And Khan is showing good improvement. LP hit him with many good flush shots and Amir reacted quite okay to them. Maturity, strength and experience all can help a man react better to a clean shot. But, as we both have said, physiology is just so important.

Freddie Roach definitely doesn't believe in his chin. The whole way Khan is set up going into a fight is to make sure he gets in and out without taking a punch...

I agree a restructuring of how Khan distributed his weight and general maturity have definitely improved him, but someone in that camp whether it be Khan or Freddie is afraid to see him go toe to toe, that's probably why he's inside game is non existent.

walshb

ToiletFusion wrote: »

Freddie Roach definitely doesn't believe in his chin. The whole way Khan is set up going into a fight is to make sure he gets in and out without taking a punch...

I agree a restructuring of how Khan distributed his weight and general maturity have definitely improved him, but someone in that camp whether it be Khan or Freddie is afraid to see him go toe to toe, that's probably why he's inside game is non existent.

I agree. His style is mostly about speed and range. That is just his style. He doesn't look comfortable inside. Just like JCC never looked comfy outside.

gene_tunney

Khan's inside game is non-existent because he doesn't have a clue how to box; he relies on his athleticism.

If Roach was scared of Punchers he wouldn't have put him in with Maidana, who had 27 KOs out of 29 wins going into the fight. He absorbed a good few solid ones from Peterson as well.

Defence is a bigger problem than chin for Khan, a bit like Andy Lee.

Spazdarn

I'd say Andy's inability to go more than 6 rounds without huffing and wheezing is a bigger issue but I get what you're saying.

walshb

gene_tunney wrote: »

Khan's inside game is non-existent because he doesn't have a clue how to box; he relies on his athleticism.
.

It's a wonder how he ever did so well....

Nobody said he was perfect, but that comment is way OTT. He is a lovely boxer, and more so when at range. Yes, inside he looks awkward and out of his depth, but again, his style is his style. It is his overall balance and coordination that makes him look unsteady and lacking fluidity. Still can box very well. You don't get a silver medal at the Olympics aged 17 without knowing how to box.

He has a lot more than just athleticism, and the LP fight showed this, as did the Maidana fight.

tryingmybestt

walshb wrote: »

It's a wonder how he ever did so well....

Nobody said he was perfect, but that comment is way OTT. He is a lovely boxer, and more so when at range. Yes, inside he looks awkward and out of his depth, but again, his style is his style. It is his overall balance and coordination that makes him look unsteady and lacking fluidity. Still can box very well. You don't get a silver medal at the Olympics aged 17 without knowing how to box.

He has a lot more than just athleticism, and the LP fight showed this, as did the Maidana fight.

agree with that....you don't succeed in the olympics and nearly pip one of the greatest cubans of all time in the final if you don't know how to box, ridicolous comment

what i would say is that he struggles with the 'fighter' element, that of being rough and tough and battling your way to a win which is sometimes required when skill is not enough.....all the greats hads this ability....lenoard did against hears.....ali did against frazier