Cris "Cyborg" Santos fails drug-test, banned for 1 year.

MrStuffins

00benski wrote: »

Ah come on MrStuffins, the guys body type over the years has been long and Lanky,(Ectomorph) for him to put on the size he has in such a short amount of time, all muscle mass is certainly not from eating horse meat and training his ass off to think so its naive

Logical Fallacy said a lot of what I wanted to say. Short time? He was a HW as far back as 2006. In fact, he always found it hard to make 205, he fought Vitor in 2006 and missed weight by a full 5 lbs!

He's been a full time HW for almost 5 years now. I do not think it is impossible for someone to put on 30lbs of muscle in 5 years in fairness.

To just presume he is on roids shows naivity on your part i'm afraid. Especially when the only "proof" you have is "Well, look at him. He used to be skinny and now he's not".

trev77 wrote: »

I think you missed my point mr stuffins, my point is that none of us know what the level of ped use is at the elite level of mma because nobody on this forum are involved with fighters of that level and because of that barrys opinion is only as valid as any body else's rather then and I did take offence to this "the average keyboard jockey"

If i'm not mistaken, Barry was trying to make the point that people shouldn't be accusing people of PED abuse willy nilly without backing themselves up. Every fighter should be innocent until proven guilty.

People trying to insinuate PEDs are rampant by lazily copying and pasting stuff from an article about 33 fighters have been caught in a 10 year period is a bit silly!

00benski

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Okay, not to sound like a total dick but i see a lot of people making this argument about Overeem.

Here are my thoughts on it.



Thirdly, there are certain obvious side effects of the majority of PED's that would be available to someone at Overeem's level the most obvious of which is the old back acne issue. Saw one thing for Overeem, the guy doesn't show any signs of it.

There is a 101 differant steriods on the market right now that dont produce much side affects if any. HGH can be taken without your organs and head blowing up, if its abused like any other steriod yes this will happen. Back acne does not happen in all cases of testosterone usage and again if its abused more side affects will appear.

Fourth, i've noticed a lot of people saying he is probably on HGH on the internet, yet once again the main physical side effects of said substance don't seem to be manifesting...predominantly further growth of the jaw and skull and distension of the waistline and stomach due to internal organ growth.

Now, i'm not saying he is or is not on drugs, i am simply pointing out that at the moment, beyond the fact that he is big...there is no real evidence for the claim that he is, as the majority of points raised can be easily and logical argued against.

ok i take the point on board that i or probably anyone else on this thread has no proper evidence to condem these athlets to drug abuse, but i will still take my stance and say there is plenty that do and one of the guys put up 33 names and im sure if we all dug a bit deeper we would come up with many many more.

Finally, from personal experience, the second you get even remotely big and strong the average Joe Soap thinks you are on steroids. Myself and a former training partner were repeatedly asked were we on steroids in pretty much every gym we trained in when we were both clean as a whistle...so i guess i am trying to say is that the simple idea that someone who eats a lot and trains hard and can get a lot bigger because of it seems to be lost on a lot of people.

j

00benski

Im not saying either that i dont approve of these guys taking steriods, tbh i think they are a pretty safe bet when not abused and help add a certain quality to some peoples lives, tho i wouldnt take them myself i might add but whatever floats your boat.

Voodu Child

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

Secondly it's not really a short amount of time...it's been 4 years. His last LHW fight was June 2007. That is a long time to add mass, especially if you consider Overeem's well documented struggle with maintaining his body for Light heavy weight. He was basically unable to eat or weight train to his potential in order to stay in that weight category.

Not true.

Overeems last fight at LHW was against Shogun. He moved to HW full time, his next three fights were Knapp, Kharonitov and Buentello.

He weighed 224 against Buentello.

This dispoves the notion that he was 'basically unable to eat or weight train' during his LHW days.

He moves to HW full time, so now he can eat and weight train all he wants. Yet 3 fights and 9 months later he still weighs just 224. This is pretty close to his LWH fighting weight.

Its also not true that he put on his mass gradually over 4 years. Most of it was done in the 2 years between Buentello (224) and Fujita (260).

Logical Fallacy

There is a 101 differant steriods on the market right now that dont produce much side affects if any. HGH can be taken without your organs and head blowing up, if its abused like any other steriod yes this will happen. Back acne does not happen in all cases of testosterone usage and again if its abused more side affects will appear.

Yeah, but your argument is that he has put on substantial muscle mass in a short amount of time...so i imagine that would require "abuse" of the substance or something like Deca of Winny to get that kind of result.

Voodu Child wrote: »

Not true.

Overeems last fight at LHW was against Shogun. He moved to HW full time, his next three fights were Knapp, Kharonitov and Buentello.

He weighed 224 against Buentello.

This dispoves the notion that he was 'basically unable to eat or weight train' during his LHW days.

He moves to HW full time, so now he can eat and weight train all he wants. Yet 3 fights and 9 months later he still weighs just 224. This is pretty close to his LWH fighting weight.

Its also not true that he put on his mass gradually over 4 years. Most of it was done in the 2 years between Buentello (224) and Fujita (260).

All the first bit tells me is he was probably fighting without the need to cut tbh. I also never implied that he left the ring post Shogun fight and started eating twelve times a day and training with Strongmen as he does now.

So i am unsure how it "disproves" the notion given that Overeem himself repeatedly stated this. The simple fact is that starting a new regime to add mass, including all the required lifting and conditioning involved to ensure that mass does not impact on cardio would not be the kind of thing you could do in a training camp....of which he had 3 over the 9 month period.

MrStuffins

Voodu Child wrote: »

He weighed 224 against Buentello.

This dispoves the notion that he was 'basically unable to eat or weight train' during his LHW days.

How does this disprove that he was unable to eat or train? It actually indicated the opposite

Voodu Child

MrStuffins wrote: »

How does this disprove that he was unable to eat or train? It actually indicated the opposite

The idea spread by Overeem defenders is that he was struggling to make LHW. He was on a very strict diet and couldn't touch the weigh-room for fear of blowing up into the hulk.

So he moves full time to HW and no longer has this pressure to make LHW. Yet 9 months later he weighs just 224?

220 is pretty much what the average LHW weighs on fight night after rehydration and eating.

MrStuffins

Voodu Child wrote: »

The idea spread by Overeem defenders is that he was struggling to make LHW. He was on a very strict diet and couldn't touch the weigh-room for fear of blowing up into the hulk.

So he moves full time to HW and no longer has this pressure to make LHW. Yet 9 months later he weighs just 224?

220 is pretty much what the average LHW weighs on fight night after rehydration and eating.

So? Perhaps he wanted to fight at his natural weight? What's your point here?

When he's big, he's too big. When he's small, he's too small :rolleyes:

By the way, I find it fascinating that you would call people "Overeem defenders". As if Overeem being on steroids is the default position and everyone else who decides he is innocent until proven guilty (remember, he has passed every drug test he's taken, including the ones associated with his previous outing v Lesnar) is a "defender". Lol!

Voodu Child

MrStuffins wrote: »

So? Perhaps he wanted to fight at his natural weight? What's your point here?

When you talk about Overeems sudden weight gain, some people say 'he was basically starving himself at LHW, that accounts for some of his gain. As soon as he moved to HW and didn't have to starve, the weight piled on'.

Clearly it is not true. The weight didn't pile on when he moved to HW because he weighed just 224 against Buentello.

Your fascination regarding the use of the term defenders is idiotic. When the discussion topic is people suspected of illegal PEDs, there is going to be people on both sides of the discussion. Take a guess what people on one side are called? Its a descriptive term.

MrStuffins

Voodu Child wrote: »

When you talk about Overeems sudden weight gain, some people say 'he was basically starving himself at LHW, that accounts for some of his gain. As soon as he moved to HW and didn't have to starve, the weight piled on'.

Clearly it is not true. The weight didn't pile on when he moved to HW because he weighed just 224 against Buentello.

You said LHWs normally weight around 220 naturally.

Overeem then fought at HW and weighted 224 according to you.

This proves he's juicing. Your logic is sound! Please tell me more!

Your fascination regarding the use of the term defenders is idiotic. When the discussion topic is people suspected of illegal PEDs, there is going to be people on both sides of the discussion. Take a guess what people on one side are called? Its a descriptive term.

Only when you introduce that term. he doesn't need to be defended because there is nothing to defend against.

The only thing people who accuse him of juicing him have is "Well look at him, he's big now and he was small before".

According to you, he's too big now. He was too small against Buentello........... excellent.

Come back with something solid or just leave it go. It onus is on you to prove it if you're making accusations. Not on him or everybody else in the world (defenders are you call us/them) to prove you wrong.

Voodu Child

MrStuffins wrote: »

You said LHWs normally weight around 220 naturally.

Overeem then fought at HW and weighted 224 according to you.

This proves he's juicing. Your logic is sound! Please tell me more!

Where did I say that? I am simply replying to a post that said he was starving himself to make LHW

Only when you introduce that term. he doesn't need to be defended because there is nothing to defend against.

The only thing people who accuse him of juicing him have is "Well look at him, he's big now and he was small before".

According to you, he's too big now. He was too small against Buentello........... excellent.

Come back with something solid or just leave it go. It onus is on you to prove it if you're making accusations. Not on him or everybody else in the world (defenders are you call us/them) to prove you wrong.

Its quite funny that you are so obsessed with my useage of the term defender.

I didn't accusing Overeem of anything, I simply replied to clarify two misconceptions:
1) He wasnt starving himself to make LHW
2) His weight gain wasnt over the course of 4 years.

So I made two factual points and you're jumping all over it with smart-alec replies, rolleyes and generally pretty obnoxious behaviour. And now you are getting hung up on the useage of the word 'defender'. Do you understand what irony is?

Logical Fallacy

Voodu Child wrote: »

So he moves full time to HW and no longer has this pressure to make LHW. Yet 9 months later he weighs just 224?

I already covered that, he had 3 fight camps in 9 months, not the best time introduce new weight training to add size to someone routine.

I imagine he stopped fighting at LHW to avoid the cut, then had an initial fear of adding too much size as people always think they will lose their speed.

It's not really that much of a mystery.

Also, i never said he was starving himself to make weight I said he was unable to eat or train to his potential.

This is why i love debating stuff on the internet, always fun to see how people misread things. Or, i guess, just make **** up.

MrStuffins

Voodu Child wrote: »

Where did I say that? I am simply replying to a post that said he was starving himself to make LHW

Yup. The guy weighs 224lbs. He starves himself to make 205. Doesn't fight at LWH anymore. Stops starving himself. Weighs 224lbs.

Need me to explain again?

Its quite funny that you are so obsessed with my useage of the term defender.

I didn't accusing Overeem of anything, I simply replied to clarify two misconceptions:
1) He wasnt starving himself to make LHW

Good job on that one Poirot :rolleyes:

2) His weight gain wasnt over the course of 4 years.

Good for you. Frank Mir put on 20lbs of muscle on through a weight training program in 6 months between his first Brock fight and his fight with Big Nog. Overeem had x8 that amount of time according to you. Perfectly plausable i'm sure you'll agree.

So I made two factual points and you're jumping all over it with smart-alec replies, rolleyes and generally pretty obnoxious behaviour. And now you are getting hung up on the useage of the word 'defender'. Do you understand what irony is?

Saying Overeem weighing 224lbs proves he wasn't starving himself to be 205 is hardly factual. Do you know what facts are?

Professey Chin

I always found Mirs weight gain a couple of years ago more insane then Overeems
He was about 240 in July for UFC 100 and then over 260 for UFC 107 in december

MrStuffins

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

I always found Mirs weight gain a couple of years ago more insane then Overeems
He was about 240 in July for UFC 100 and then over 260 for UFC 107 in december

Exactly! He lashed it on. i remember seeing his training program. it was ridiculous!

Voodu Child

MrStuffins wrote: »

Yup. The guy weighs 224lbs. He starves himself to make 205. Doesn't fight at LWH anymore. Stops starving himself. Weighs 224lbs.

Need me to explain again?

Overeem didn't starve down to 205. He cut down to 205.

Do you know what a cut is? Clearly not. It's a temporary weight loss, most of it is regained between the weigh-in and fight.

Most LHWs cut approx 15lbs, which means his LHW fighting weight was approx 220.

MrStuffins

Voodu Child wrote: »

Overeem didn't starve down to 205. He cut down to 205.

Do you know what a cut is? Clearly not. It's a temporary weight loss, most of it is regained between the weigh-in and fight.

Most LHWs cut approx 15lbs, which means his LHW fighting weight was approx 220.

Wait, did you just explain to me what a cut was?

Did you actually thinbk I didn't know what a cut was and this was why I disagreed with you?

EDIT: You were the one using the word "starve". Did you actually think people in this thread were stupid enough to think that he was making weight by literally starving himself? I re-used your word, which i thought you meant as "dieting"........... you actually thought people believed he was starving himself down to 205?

MrStuffins

Voodu Child wrote: »

He weighed 224 against Buentello.

This dispoves the notion that he was 'basically unable to eat or weight train' during his LHW days.

Voodu Child wrote: »

The idea spread by Overeem defenders is that he was struggling to make LHW. He was on a very strict diet and couldn't touch the weigh-room for fear of blowing up into the hulk.

it seems to me that you are trying to say that you don't believe that Overeem was on a strict diet and couldn't life weights so he could make LHW.

Do you not believe that fighters who need to cut weight are on special diets?

Logical Fallacy

Voodu Child wrote: »

Overeem didn't starve down to 205. He cut down to 205.

Do you know what a cut is? Clearly not. It's a temporary weight loss, most of it is regained between the weigh-in and fight.

Most LHWs cut approx 15lbs, which means his LHW fighting weight was approx 220.

I'm not sure what you are saying.

Overeem cut to 205. Yes he did. However, by limiting your calorific intake and weight training excercises which may result in hypertrophy or hyperplasia of the of muscle tissue you can maintain your weight at a near constant level.

This is not to say that this weight and muscle mass is your peak level, as an increase in calories and training will obviously lead to growth.

Once again i am not seeing anything in your argument to make me disbelieve what Overeem has said in many interviews.

Mr. Loverman

MrStuffins, every time I come here you're arguing with someone. You need to ask yourself why you do this.

MrStuffins

Mr. Loverman wrote: »

MrStuffins, every time I come here you're arguing with someone. You need to ask yourself why you do this.

SHABBA!!!

In all seriousness though, this is the forum where I post most. it's a discussion forum after all, and most of the time discussion will stem from one person disagreeing with the points of another.

If everyone agreed with each other, the forum would be pretty dreadful in fairness. There's nothing wrong with a good old fashioned debate now is there?

Also, i'm a grumpy f**ker :-P

00benski

The Great Chinholio wrote: »

I always found Mirs weight gain a couple of years ago more insane then Overeems
He was about 240 in July for UFC 100 and then over 260 for UFC 107 in december

we could also say that Mir was juicing also, my thinking would be to put on 20lbs of pure muscle in 6 months without the help of something would be silly.

dave1982

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pf-Vw-HhzPY

Apparently he was on a diet of Horse meat for a while

cowzerp

I have gave a couple of infractions here, Cyborg was found guilty of using stuff so it can be discussed, MIR, Overeem etc where not and any allegations even hinting they could be using will be infracted at least.

I have my suspicions on fighters, but no proof and it's just my opinion-I save it for when im not on here because it's against the charter-Innocent untill proven guilty it is on here.

No more debating fighters drug abuse unless there is proof, and been big aint proof.

empacher

Between the ages o 16 and 18 i used to cut weight from 60kg to 55kg for an unrelated sport. When i hit 57 i was ripped abs and all. Had to starve to get to 55kg.

At age 18, i packed in said sport and hit the weights. 8 months later I weighed 72kg. Increase of 12Kg which is 26.5 lbs. Never ate horse meat. Only thing I took was USN mass gainer (because I couldn't afford it regularly, i took half portion once a day instead of the recommend )

So concluding Overeems gain is pretty easily doable.

On Drug testing, i failed an Olympic standard drug test before for taking a wrong mix of Vitamins and supplements recommend from a supplements store.

I also passed a following drug test when my urine was as green as this smiley. Having changed around the supplements.

I'm sure if I had thousands to spend on supplements and a nutritionist telling me to take this now, this in 15mins time etc I could train like a man possessed.

Sadly I don't and am holding this, as the reason I'm not the uber extreme universes mma champion. :mad:


and people going on about you can't do weights if your cutting.

I can lift 2kg dumbbells for hours and i wont 'gain weight' i'll have the most toned arm you'll see though.

Don't talk about weight training programs if you think ' me lift weights me get big' Majority of MMA fighters below 205, don't lift big weights as what good is being strong for an instant as opposed to having an endurance for muscular work.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Guys just a heads up here.

There has been an amendment to the forum's charter in relation to discussing steroids, and in particular their use's - it will not affect discussion re. fighter's caught doping.

Rule #8 CLICK HERE.

8) No allegations against fighters, particularly in regard to steroid use. If you want to accuse them make sure you have a bulletproof source or you will be banned, discussing Steroid use at all is not allowed unless it's about someone who was banned for it and it is not just specualtion (this includes steroid advice re. doses, side effects, cycles, substances/steroids-stimulants and sources).

Barry.Oglesby

00benski wrote: »

Yes there is an extremly high amount of people who dont use these drugs, but to put your body through some of the training ELITE athlets do, many times a day would be impossible on the human body without the help of some sort of edge.

Hi,

I know I said I was out but that's just factually incorrect and a preposterous, blanket accusation.

00benski

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

Hi,

I know I said I was out but that's just factually incorrect and a preposterous, blanket accusation.

Im out also barry, so you wont have an investment from me im afraid lol

MrStuffins

Not exactly on the topic of Cyborg but on the topic of drug testing and the likes of The Reem:

All 21 fighters who underwent drug testing at this past month's UFC 141 event tested clean for performance-enhancing drugs and recreational/drugs of abuse.

Nevada State Athletic Commission Executive Director Keith Kizer today e-mailed the drug-testing results to MMAjunkie.com (www.mmajunkie.com).

UFC 141 took place Dec. 30 at MGM Grand Garden Arena in Las Vegas with an Alistair Overeem vs. Brock Lesnar pay-per-view headliner.

The NSAC tested both of them and all other fighters from the card except Jon Fitch. (The NSAC didn't clarify why he wasn't tested, though he may have been taken to the hospital following his knockout loss to Johny Hendricks and not been available.)

All tested negative for drugs of abuse (such as marijuana and cocaine), as well as anabolic steroids and other performance-enhancers.

The NSAC traditionally tests both main-card fighters, all winning fighters and any competitors who previously failed drug tests. However, some of the testing remains random, and all fighters are subject to it.

Source

dave1982

As expected really

00benski

Oh Well done mrstuffins for bringing something like this to the naysayers attention, we have been all wrong and this thread has been all but put to bed, nobody takes drugs, thanks for clearing that one up

MrStuffins

00benski wrote: »

Oh Well done mrstuffins for bringing something like this to the naysayers attention, we have been all wrong and this thread has been all but put to bed, nobody takes drugs, thanks for clearing that one up

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37OWL7AzvHo

Iphonehelp

MrStuffins wrote: »

Not exactly on the topic of Cyborg but on the topic of drug testing and the likes of The Reem:



Source

You are aware there are maskers and types of steroids that are out of your system in hours?

I am reading through this thread and laughing to be honest. Anyone who thinks Overeem is not juicing is completely delusional.

cowzerp

Iphonehelp wrote: »

You are aware there are maskers and types of steroids that are out of your system in hours?

I am reading through this thread and laughing to be honest. Anyone who thinks Overeem is not juicing is completely delusional.

Bye bye.