Racism discussion in Soccer

Blatter

There are too many mods for the soccer forum that aren't online often enough, or actually don't appear to be active at all. There are those that do a great job, but they could do with some help.

I asked before in another feedback thread but didn't get an answer, but what does eZe^ do? When was the last time he actually modded the soccer forum?

The forum could do with at least one more mod (that is a regular) and maybe situations such as those seen in this feedback thread may be better avoided in the future.

#15

There was a mod note in the Utd thread last Sunday, warning people not to discuss moderation on thread and to PM the mods with any issues.

So I PMed a mod about the trolling in the match threads. No response since. Wtf is going on?

As Xavi6 said, even just an acknowledgement would be something.

There is no action being taken against low-level baiting either. Or against re-reg accounts.

amiable

Who are the re reg accounts?

Blatter

amiable wrote: »

Who are the re reg accounts?

Everybody knows that Crazy Horse is Mister men. Either that or they are identical twins, with identical personalities.:pac:

Also, that cloptrop seems suspiciously similar to that partyndbs or whatever he was called that got banned a while ago.

tommyhaas

Blatter wrote: »

Everybody knows that Crazy Horse is Mister men. Either that or they are identical twins, with identical personalities.:pac:

Also, that cloptrop seems suspiciously similar to that partyndbs or whatever he was called that got banned a while ago.

CillDaraAbu was back last week too for the Liverpool Oldham game, power21 or something along those lines

flahavaj

#15 wrote: »

Didn't know he was banned. Is Flahavaj banned as well?

All while low-level trolls are allowed wreck threads on a consistent basis. Bizarre state of affairs in the SF at the minute.

I am, but all my own doing and totally justified tbh. Needed a break tbh. Mister Men et al finally wore me down.:pac:

Looking at the mods list, whio is x_Pyro? Never seen him or her post ever yet they're named as a mod?

flahavaj

Blatter wrote: »

Everybody knows that Crazy Horse is Mister men. Either that or they are identical twins, with identical personalities.:pac:

Also, that cloptrop seems suspiciously similar to that partyndbs or whatever he was called that got banned a while ago.

You are like a computer.

LuckyLloyd

Oh dear, same thing every time. Ye can't focus on one issue and see it through to get it sorted. We're always 10 posts away from another 'the whole modding of the soccer forum is ****ed - I demand changes!' diatribe that never goes anywhere because it's too broad and indigestible.

Let's solve the mod team barring discussion of an issue because they are too lazy to read the thread themselves today. We can have another go at low level trolling next week, and then maybe deal with moderator activity levels a month or so down the line. You can then get onto matters of consistency, content and organisation later in the year.

Instead, it all gets dragged into any thread where the soccer forum is mentioned, and the mod team and admins get to (rightly to be fair) go 'whoa!' and nothing changes.

I think overall things are as good (or bad depending on your perspective) as they've ever been - but this particular issue is a scandalous abrogation of responsibility on behalf of the moderators. Their assertion that this issue is not on topic, relevant or worthwhile of the soccer forum is simply ridiculous.

flahavaj

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh dear, same thing every time. Ye can't focus on one issue and see it through to get it sorted. We're always 10 posts away from another 'the whole modding of the soccer forum is ****ed - I demand changes!' diatribe that never goes anywhere because it's too broad and indigestible.

Let's solve the mod team barring discussion of an issue because they are too lazy to read the thread themselves today. We can have another go at low level trolling next week, and then maybe deal with activity levels a month or so down the line. You can then get onto matters of consistency, content and organisation later in the year.

Instead, it all gets dragged into every thread where the soccer forum is mentioned, and the mod team and admins get to (rightly to be fair) go 'whoa!' and nothing changes.

I think overall things are as good (or bad depending on your perspective) as they've every been - but this particular issue is a scandalous abrogation of responsibility on behalf of the moderators. Their assertion that this issue is not on topic, relevant or worthwhile in the soccer forum is simply ridiculous.

The whole thread locking has already fulfilled its function tbh. Allowed things to simmer down for a while while the powers that be cover their easrs for a week or two and pretend no one's complaining or nothing's wrong. I can kinda understand why they did it but it does reek of taking the easy way out instead of doing what they actually made a committment to so when they took on the role of mod - moderate.

Blatter

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh dear, same thing every time. Ye can't focus on one issue and see it through to get it sorted. We're always 10 posts away from another 'the whole modding of the soccer forum is ****ed - I demand changes!' diatribe that never goes anywhere because it's too broad and indigestible.

Let's solve the mod team barring discussion of an issue because they are too lazy to read the thread themselves today. We can have another go at low level trolling next week, and then maybe deal with moderator activity levels a month or so down the line. You can then get onto matters of consistency, content and organisation later in the year.

Instead, it all gets dragged into any thread where the soccer forum is mentioned, and the mod team and admins get to (rightly to be fair) go 'whoa!' and nothing changes.

I think overall things are as good (or bad depending on your perspective) as they've ever been - but this particular issue is a scandalous abrogation of responsibility on behalf of the moderators. Their assertion that this issue is not on topic, relevant or worthwhile of the soccer forum is simply ridiculous.

It's all well and good to stick to discussing whether the racism thread should be reopened or not, (although there's not much to discuss, it quite obviously should be) but when you have gotten only one mod response, almost 5 days ago, and seemingly absolutely no movement on this issue at all, it's inevitable that issues over the modding in general are going to be brought up.

There's nothing left for any of us to post on this issue, all the reasons on why it should be opened have been given, but no response.

LuckyLloyd

flahavaj wrote: »

The whole thread locking has already fulfilled its function tbh. Allowed things to simmer down for a while while the powers that be cover their easrs for a week or two and pretend no one's complaining or nothing's wrong. I can kinda understand why they did it but it does reek of taking the easy way out instead of doing what they actually made a committment to so when they took on the role of mod - moderate.

It is the easy way out. Just take the ****ing thing in pieces. Mod X comes in to the soccer forum and types 'I'm going to review posts 10068 through 10470'. Next dude who comes online picks up from there, reads what he can and posts what he's covered. And so on and so on.

That way, every post gets covered retroactively, and if there is something particularly controversial, the mod puts it in their forum thread after he's gone through the posts he chose, and it's there for reference. Not rocket science. And in that way, the whole thing (and all the rubbish around it) can be located in the one place.

What the mod team are essentially saying on this one is:

A) they simply can't bear reading up to 100 posts of the thread themselves per day;
they haven't the interest or wherewithal to organise themselves as per the above (or some more efficient way);

And that seems to require an explanation before any of the other potential issues on the forum at the moment are dealt with.

K-9

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Oh dear, same thing every time. Ye can't focus on one issue and see it through to get it sorted. We're always 10 posts away from another 'the whole modding of the soccer forum is ****ed - I demand changes!' diatribe that never goes anywhere because it's too broad and indigestible.

Let's solve the mod team barring discussion of an issue because they are too lazy to read the thread themselves today. We can have another go at low level trolling next week, and then maybe deal with moderator activity levels a month or so down the line. You can then get onto matters of consistency, content and organisation later in the year.

Instead, it all gets dragged into any thread where the soccer forum is mentioned, and the mod team and admins get to (rightly to be fair) go 'whoa!' and nothing changes.

I think overall things are as good (or bad depending on your perspective) as they've ever been - but this particular issue is a scandalous abrogation of responsibility on behalf of the moderators. Their assertion that this issue is not on topic, relevant or worthwhile of the soccer forum is simply ridiculous.

It's pretty well modded to be fair, there'll always be issues. The mods hoped locking the thread for a week or 2 would calm the issue as it was 5/6 weeks to the Liverpool United match.

Then the FA Cup draw happened!

_blank_

Low level trolling going unchecked is the main gripe.

Every time I raise it with the mods, I get told something is being done, but nothing is done.

If I report posts, I'm told not to report them, if you don't report posts, you get told that the mods can't do anything if posts aren't reported.

The absolute state of the City/United match thread on Sunday is another gripe, and other match threads recently also (show us examples! otherwise we don't believe you!!). Trolls allowed free reign for a couple of hours, until a mod is arsed modding.

The number of people listed as mods does not equal the number of people modding. The number of people modding, and the number of people available to mod at the appropriate times needs to increase. I know the personal circumstances of at least two of the listed mods has changed recently, and fair enough, but if your team isn't capable of covering the busiest times any more, then change the team.

amiable

flahavaj wrote: »

The whole thread locking has already fulfilled its function tbh. Allowed things to simmer down for a while while the powers that be cover their easrs for a week or two and pretend no one's complaining or nothing's wrong. I can kinda understand why they did it but it does reek of taking the easy way out instead of doing what they actually made a committment to so when they took on the role of mod - moderate.

In fairness you're no angel either

flahavaj

amiable wrote: »

In fairness you're no angel either

And have been quite rightfully dealt with accordingly.

Thats not really very relevant to the fact that debate on the hot topic in English soccer has been banned in the place where Socecer is discussed though.

amiable

flahavaj wrote: »

And have been quite rightfully dealt with accordingly.

Thats not really very relevant to the fact that debate on the hot topic in English soccer has been banned in the place where Socecer is discussed though.

I wasn't talking about what you have been rightfully dealt.

I have no knowledge of this at all.

PHB

Ok, this is going to be a giant series of posts responding to the issues raised. You'll have to forgive my general tone, but frankly, a lot of the posts in this thread really annoyed me.

Too Much Hassle Argument

Xavi6 wrote: »

There should be a thread for every aspect of the game and the fact that racism one has been closed leads me to assume, given PHB's stats, that it was simply too much hassle and the mods couldn't be arsed managing it any more.

And that's not how the forum should be fun.

El Pistolero wrote: »

This.

Most threads on Boards can be a PITA but mods have to deal with them because thats why they/i signed up to be mods in the first place.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Their assertion that this issue is not on topic, relevant or worthwhile of the soccer forum is simply ridiculous.

Pro. F wrote: »

PHB you are taking the piss saying that the forum is supposed to be about talking about the FA Cup and not racism in football. It is a massive issue in general and this particular incident is an extremely high profile recent story. The topics discussed in football have never been limited to the on field action. There is undeniably a huge interest in discussing all the aspects of and relating to the game.

Racism in football is a part of football. Evra and Suarez's case is a part of football. The subsequent stories coming out of Liverpool football club and the reactions to them are a part of football. You are not allowing those discussions to happen.

Genuinely, I'm asking this question, did anyone of you actually read what I posted? Genuinely. Because all three of you have made out the following:

PHB is saying that there should be no discussion of the racism issue in the soccer forum.

That is a completely and utterly absurd interpretation of what I said, so I guess I have to repeat it.

Racism Thread happened. Was left open for a very long period. Discussion on the issues happened over this period. Thread was an absolute trainwreck at times, with multiple bannings and infractions on the thread. However, it was left open, because it was a huge issue in football and it's important to discuss it. Then, the thread stopped being a discussion. It became a series of claims and counter-claims, normally coming from people who havent read the previous 1000 posts. Somebody claims one stupid thing, another person argues with them, normally resulting in an infraction.

It's not the infractions that are the problem, it's the fact that they are coming from a thread which is no longer providing any useful discussion or debate past a chance for people to keep making absurd claims that have already been disproven.

Beyond that, I absolutely reject the notion that it's not perfectly acceptable to lock a thread because it is too much trouble relative to the usefullness of the debate. I fully think that that is at the moderators discretion, and all the moderators agreed that this thread should be closed. Want another example of where we did the exact same thing and not a soul raised an eyebrow? The Man Utd - Liverpool who would you want in your team. It was a perfectly valid debate, but we all know exactly what would happen if we let it play out. As such, we closed it, because the relative usefullness vs. trouble wasn't worth it.

PHB

General Outcomes

Pro. F wrote: »

Posters getting banned is not itself a bad thing. If they can't control themselves when discussing a divisive topic then the forum is better off without them. Punish the bad posters for their actions, not the rest of the forum.

This is where I fundamentally differ from nearly all of you. My ideal outcome for a new disruptive poster is not that they are banned, it's that they are altered in their behaviour to become better posters. I will punish people for their actions, and hope that they alter their behaviour in the future. My ideal outcome is not somebody banned. It really upsets me when I have to ban someone, as I'm taking away an independent voice from the forum.

A thread that results in two permanent bans is not an outcome I want to see, and is something I'm happy to try and avoid in the future.

It especially annoys me when we lose posters who are normally extremely interesting and insightful in a variety of facets of the game, because of a side issue to the core debate of football, as in the 22 people on the pitch.

Oh any by the way, since lots of you have consistently accused the mods of being lazy, this is the exact opposite of the easy approach which so many of you advocate, just infract and ban everyone.

It would appear I have a different goal to you though.

PHB

Debate is still ongoing

super_furry wrote: »

The entire thing is bizarre. It's a massive issue that's setting the news agenda at the moment with developments all the time - Liverpool have just issued an apology to Tom Adeyemi - and yet there's nowhere to discuss it.

Don't get me wrong, there was some daft stuff said in the Racism thread from many sides, but the mods voluntereed to deal with exactly that kind of stuff. It seems like this decision has been taken to give them an easier life. If the thread needs modding, do it. If people deserve bans, ban them.

Don't close down valid topics of discussion to protect idiots from themselves.

Frankly, it's not. Nothing new has really happened. The best thing you could come up with was a development unrelated to a different case! There was plently of discussion of the Adeyemi issue in various threads, they weren't blocked in any way. What we've stopped the discussion on is the Suarez & Terry case, until there is an actual new development.

PHB

Other Threads Argument

K-9 wrote: »

The problem seems to be that it is brought up on the United, Liverpool and the Oldham game threads. Its such a big issue it's probably unreasonable to expect it not to be discussed or mentioned on other threads.

Well basically, it's not being discussed really anywhere else much, bar the odd post here or there which I'm happy to delete. It's basically ended the discussion, so my main worry about doing this hasn't really materialised.

PHB

Random Statements

daithijjj wrote: »

I completely disagree, the Soccer forum should cater for all news surrounding the game. All this mod decision has done is postponed the inevitable by a few weeks. Do the mods feel that the Terry case wont be completely deconstructed and compared to the Suarez case?.

That's the whole point. The thread will be reopened when there's something new to discuss.

daithijjj wrote: »

We both know people dont bother their backside reporting posts from superthreads that much, if at all.

That is a flatly untrue statement, I have no idea where you're getting that idea from.

PHB

Easy Solutions

Pro. F wrote: »

An easy solution to the problem of new posters coming into the thread and repeating already disproved/proved claims would be a mod note spelling out the simple things that have already been proved/disproved and a warning that any new uninformed claims to the contrary will be infracted.

Easy solution? Are you actually taking the piss? Genuinely, you think this is the easy solution? You would like the moderators to have complete knowledge of every single aspect to the multiple court cases, spell out what has and hasn't happened, and then infract people who disagree with us? I could write about 10 pages on why that's a really awful idea.

daithijjj wrote: »

All that thread required was a firmer hand.

If only.

PHB

Acknowledgement

Xavi6 wrote: »

Some acknowledgement of this thread would be a start, I reported the OP yesterday asking from some admin/mod input and not a peep.

Shock horror.

#15 wrote: »

There was a mod note in the Utd thread last Sunday, warning people not to discuss moderation on thread and to PM the mods with any issues.

So I PMed a mod about the trolling in the match threads. No response since. Wtf is going on?

As Xavi6 said, even just an acknowledgement would be something.

You'll have to forgive me if my main priority is not responding to feedback on moderator. I've spent about 4 hours this week modding the forum after work during the Monday to Friday, and to put it very bluntly, in terms of priorities, responding in Feedback is pretty much at the bottom of everything in terms of mod duties. There's the actual modding of the forum that needs to be done, which will remain my priority.

PHB

General Complaints

super_furry wrote: »

Aside from the racism topic, I think there needs to be a wider discussion about the standard of modding on the soccer forum.

I recommend a new thread, go for it. Different debate here.

PHB

General Trolling

There is no action being taken against low-level baiting either. Or against re-reg accounts.

I asked the admins was the person who everyone thinks is a re-reg a re-reg. They didn't think so. End of for me.

El Pistolero wrote: »

It seems to be a recurring theme in the soccer forum that people troll/insult/wreck threads for fun, but it takes FOREVER to do something about it. Then the mods close threads because its gotten out of hand. The infraction/banning procedure is there for a reason. Why not use it?

I must say, I'm getting pretty pissed off at the way people constantly push this. I read entire threads from end to end when people make these claims and most of the time, it stems from people who post a lot and think themselves knowledgable and are just unable to take any sort of negative banter or differing opinions. I'm not denying that there are people who troll on the forum, but I get much more annoyed at the supposed non-trolll posters who frankly make the matters worse.

PHB

Des

Des wrote: »

If I report posts, I'm told not to report them, if you don't report posts, you get told that the mods can't do anything if posts aren't reported.

You really want to bring this into public Des, really? Ok, let's do it.

This stems from this thread here, where you made your initial complaint. I'll give you all one guess as to what thread this came from - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75521133

Initial post by Niall reported by multiple people.
Infraction given to Niall at at 16:05.
Infraction given to you at at 16:06.
Mod Note given to thread at 16:06.
Mod Note states:

PHB wrote: »

Mod Note:

Lads, cop on for god sake. Jesus. Any more utter drivel will be dealt with harshly.

PM Sent by you at 16:19.
Four reported posts by you in the thread from 16:22 onwards.

You reported these posts, fully in the knowledge that I had already acted on the thread, the simple fact was you disagreed with the moderation, so you decided to go back and report every post, which you know I've already looked at, since I had already acted in the thread.

At no point were you told not to report posts. You were told to not bloody SPAM me with reported posts because you were pissed off you got an infraction. Big ****ing difference.

I explained this to you in PM, after you had already bleated about it to me there. You never responded, gosh I wonder why?

_blank_

As I already explained to you, I was reporting posts which I, personally, felt were troll-ish.

In the vain attempt to say, in the future, when some CMod or Admin accuses me of not reporting low-level trolls, as always happens, that yes, I did report those posts.

If a person doesn't report posts, they are generally told to stfu about low level trolls.

If a person does report (too many) posts it obviously pisses off the mods.

Yes, you'd dealt with the initial problem, and read the other posts on the thread, fair enough, but I still want to report the other posts in the thread because I see them as low level trolling, and when it comes to it, if there is a complaint about low-level trolling in the future, someone - Mod, CMod or Admin - is definitely going to ask the question "Did you report the posts at the time". My answer will refer back to this post, thanks very much.

I don't report posts to annoy you, or any other Soccer Mod, why the hell would I do that?

I report posts, because if I don't report posts, later down the line someone will ask did I report posts, and when the answer to that is "No", the complaint is dismissed, and I'm absolutely sick to the back teeth of that happening.

_blank_

...and by the way, the poster I directed that post at IS a low level troll.

You know, his fellow liverpool fans know it, everyone knows it.

********************************************************

Now that we have a mod actually acknowledging and responding to feedback, and moving the thread away from just the moderation of the Racism thread, I want to talk about match thread moderation.

It's shockingly bad.


And has been for a while.

PHB

lol, that's an clever justification. Didn't see that coming, pretty creative. It doesn't change the fact that you really weren't, you were doing it because you were pissed off you got infracted.

daithijjj

I have no desire left to carry on with this discussion.

I think the modding in the soccer forum has left alot to be desired this year and i will bring that up when time comes. Its not a blame game, i just think it needs more bodies that actually contribute to the forums workability.