Racism discussion in Soccer

ROCKMAN

daithijjj wrote: »

I have no desire left to carry on with this discussion.

I think the modding in the soccer forum has left alot to be desired this year and i will bring that up when time comes. Its not a blame game, i just think it needs more bodies that actually contribute to the forums workability.

Hi mate ,Would have to disagree with you ,Considering some of the topics faced this season I think the mods have done a decent job ,Big improvement than a few years back IMHO .

#15

PHB wrote: »

You'll have to forgive me if my main priority is not responding to feedback on moderator. I've spent about 4 hours this week modding the forum after work during the Monday to Friday, and to put it very bluntly, in terms of priorities, responding in Feedback is pretty much at the bottom of everything in terms of mod duties. There's the actual modding of the forum that needs to be done, which will remain my priority.

Fine, no problem if you haven't the time. Priorities and all that.

But then don't say in the mod note that users should PM you about their concerns. Makes no sense to tell users to PM you and then to say you have no time to address the PMs. Just leave out the part about PMs and it will save time for us both.

daithijjj

ROCKMAN wrote: »

Hi mate ,Would have to disagree with you ,Considering some of the topics faced this season I think the mods have done a decent job ,Big improvement than a few years back IMHO .

Sup

Nah, i cant be havin that, this isnt really the place but when you have no apparent mod online on an early Saturday kick off, and the posts get no attention until the evening, then there is a problem, it has happened a few times this year and the racism thread getting out of hand is another symptom of that. Its no use to anyone if theres no mod on the soccer forum on a Saturday. Anyway, all the best and happy new year to you and yours

PHB

#15 wrote: »

Fine, no problem if you haven't the time. Priorities and all that.

But then don't say in the mod note that users should PM you about their concerns. Makes no sense to tell users to PM you and then to say you have no time to address the PMs. Just leave out the part about PMs and it will save time for us both.

To be honest, normally I'd get back to PMs, it's just been an incredibly busy week.

Xavi6

PHB wrote: »

Acknowledgement

You'll have to forgive me if my main priority is not responding to feedback on moderator. I've spent about 4 hours this week modding the forum after work during the Monday to Friday, and to put it very bluntly, in terms of priorities, responding in Feedback is pretty much at the bottom of everything in terms of mod duties. There's the actual modding of the forum that needs to be done, which will remain my priority.

You seem to be taking this rather personally. Last time I looked at the bottom of the forum you weren't the only mod listed. Between the group I'm sure not everyone had as busy a week as you.

Fair play for all the posts here, it's good to see, but it looks like you've just been left to face the masses on your tobler. Where's everyone else?

Pro. F

I haven't been able to post for the last week so this is now a very late reply and probably going to be ignored. That is fine, I know the mods are busy and they have already made their decision. I just want to put down my disagreements with the issues raised by PHB.

PHB wrote: »

Genuinely, I'm asking this question, did anyone of you actually read what I posted? Genuinely. Because all three of you have made out the following:

PHB is saying that there should be no discussion of the racism issue in the soccer forum.

That is a completely and utterly absurd interpretation of what I said, so I guess I have to repeat it.

Racism Thread happened. Was left open for a very long period. Discussion on the issues happened over this period. Thread was an absolute trainwreck at times, with multiple bannings and infractions on the thread. However, it was left open, because it was a huge issue in football and it's important to discuss it. Then, the thread stopped being a discussion. It became a series of claims and counter-claims, normally coming from people who havent read the previous 1000 posts. Somebody claims one stupid thing, another person argues with them, normally resulting in an infraction.

It's not the infractions that are the problem, it's the fact that they are coming from a thread which is no longer providing any useful discussion or debate past a chance for people to keep making absurd claims that have already been disproven.

Beyond that, I absolutely reject the notion that it's not perfectly acceptable to lock a thread because it is too much trouble relative to the usefullness of the debate. I fully think that that is at the moderators discretion, and all the moderators agreed that this thread should be closed. Want another example of where we did the exact same thing and not a soul raised an eyebrow? The Man Utd - Liverpool who would you want in your team. It was a perfectly valid debate, but we all know exactly what would happen if we let it play out. As such, we closed it, because the relative usefullness vs. trouble wasn't worth it.

Yes of course I read what you said. You made the point that the thread had outlived its usefulness, but you also said:

PHB wrote: »

So, in a forum where we are meant to be talking about the FA Cup and what's going to happen this weekend, we are instead banning people, loads of people, who when posting about football are perfectly fine posters, but in this thread, seem to lose all sense of logic.

You certainly seemed to be expressing an opinion that issues like racism wasn't what we are really meant to be talking about. And you have taken that stance again in one of your replies here:

PHB wrote: »

It especially annoys me when we lose posters who are normally extremely interesting and insightful in a variety of facets of the game, because of a side issue to the core debate of football, as in the 22 people on the pitch.

Comments like this are plain wrong and if the fact that the discussion is about an off the pitch incident isn't a factor then don't mention it as if it is.

Your point about the discussion being given a chance to run and then being closed is fair but I still think it was the wrong choice. There were obviously a lot of people who still wanted to argue about it when it was closed. And it is something that people are going to want to discuss for a long time. It's just one of those topics. The thread that Slick closed is a misleading example. He got a lot of thanks for that, but I don't think you should read so much into it. His closing post was funny and I doubt there were many people who were that keen to debate the topic. It's hardly a burning issue. The Suarez/Evra case is still going to be causing people to disagree for months. But they won't be allowed to on the SF which I think is wrong.

But you are right that it's down to moderator discretion in the end. You have made your call and some people disagree with it.

PHB wrote: »

This is where I fundamentally differ from nearly all of you. My ideal outcome for a new disruptive poster is not that they are banned, it's that they are altered in their behaviour to become better posters. I will punish people for their actions, and hope that they alter their behaviour in the future. My ideal outcome is not somebody banned. It really upsets me when I have to ban someone, as I'm taking away an independent voice from the forum.

A thread that results in two permanent bans is not an outcome I want to see, and is something I'm happy to try and avoid in the future.

It especially annoys me when we lose posters who are normally extremely interesting and insightful in a variety of facets of the game, because of a side issue to the core debate of football, as in the 22 people on the pitch.

Oh any by the way, since lots of you have consistently accused the mods of being lazy, this is the exact opposite of the easy approach which so many of you advocate, just infract and ban everyone.

It would appear I have a different goal to you though.

That's all well and good, but it is nowhere near a good justification for closing a thread. People discussing the soccer topics they want to discuss while staying within the rules is more important than protecting the rule breakers from themselves and showing them the error of their ways.

Go ahead and pursue your aims of correcting new and bad posters, I agree it can be good in the long run, but limiting what is allowed to be discussed by the whole SF to help with that? No, that is a complete mess of the priorities.

PHB wrote: »

Easy solution? Are you actually taking the piss? Genuinely, you think this is the easy solution? You would like the moderators to have complete knowledge of every single aspect to the multiple court cases, spell out what has and hasn't happened, and then infract people who disagree with us? I could write about 10 pages on why that's a really awful idea.

I was talking about two or three of the simplest points that have been agreed on by anybody half way sensible that has followed the debate.

For example: that Evra does not have a history of false racism allegations; that Suarez used the Spanish word ''negro'', not the English word ''negro''; that the FA statement did not say Suarez is a racist. Just a few of those simple points was all I was suggesting. That would definitely cut down on a fair few of the random idiot contributions and it would be easy to implement.

kmart6

The Racism thread was ridiculous...one example that stuck out to me was personal abuse aimed at a poster three times in separate posts by the same person and that only resulted in a week ban...seemed like a joke to me! Supposedly there's no excuse for personal abuse yet hardly deterring it with only a wek ban!

daithijjj

Xavi6 wrote: »

You seem to be taking this rather personally. Last time I looked at the bottom of the forum you weren't the only mod listed. Between the group I'm sure not everyone had as busy a week as you.

Fair play for all the posts here, it's good to see, but it looks like you've just been left to face the masses on your tobler. Where's everyone else?

Exactly. And that's why the thread escalated in the first place and why there were so many infracted. Seems to me there is a lack of bodies around the place.

^^^^^^The thread was not ridiculous, it was neglected, poorly moderated, it escalated, that's life. Mods should take note of this for the summer 'hows our driving' thread. If ye need more bodies, speak up. No bodies on a Saturday afternoon in soccer is a joke, im sorry.

RasTa

daithijjj wrote: »

Mods should take note of this for the summer 'hows our driving' thread. If ye need more bodies, speak up. No bodies on a Saturday afternoon in soccer is a joke, im sorry.

lol, some people do have lives you know. That's one of the most ridiculous posts I've read on the internet in quiet some time.

daithijjj

RasTa wrote: »

lol, some people do have lives you know. That's one of the most ridiculous posts I've read on the internet in quiet some time.

Ah, Rasta, tis yourself, not a more valued opinion i cherish more on boards :rolleyes:

If you think its ridiculous to suggest a mod should be around on Saturday afternoon in soccer, well then, you must be some 'rockstar' yourself.

RasTa

daithijjj wrote: »

Ah, Rasta, tis yourself, not a more valued opinion i cherish more on boards :rolleyes:

If you think its ridiculous to suggest a mod should be around on Saturday afternoon in soccer, well then, you must be some 'rockstar' yourself.

I rarely post in your thread tbh but haven't you got anything better to be doing on a Saturday then worrying if the forum is being modded?

Maybe you should start paying for these type of services

daithijjj

RasTa wrote: »

I rarely post in your thread tbh but haven't you got anything better to be doing on a Saturday then worrying if the forum is being modded?

Maybe you should start paying for these type of services

Indeed, and this still applies.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=75936253&postcount=3154

RasTa

You do care a little bit or else you wouldn't bother replying. But keep up the campaign for internet justice if it makes you happy.

LuckyLloyd

RasTa wrote: »

lol, some people do have lives you know. That's one of the most ridiculous posts I've read on the internet in quiet some time.

Meh, it is and it isn't. There's no doubt that there is a bunch of soccer forum regs on there most Saturday afternoons discussing football. There is also no way that all of the mods are AFK all the time. Coverage is a valid issue - for sure some people simply have too much going on to be around for big matches regularly, but then soccer forum moderation isn't for everyone now, is it?

There should be a rota system in there, they should be looking at a fixture list in advance and figuring out ways to handle anticipated problem times. No shame in not being interested in putting that level of effort into it obviously - but if you volunteered that's kinda what you signed up for, right?

RasTa

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There should be a rota system in there, they should be looking at a fixture list in advance and figuring out ways to handle anticipated problem times. No shame in not being interested in putting that level of effort into it obviously - but if you volunteered that's kinda what you signed up for, right?

Still going to harp on about the same point, but the mod's have always being saying to report the post and they will deal with it. It seems that people still do not follow this rule and that's when the tediousness begins of people moaning about the standards etc. I don't think having live coverage for example with this weekend's fun fixture would have much of an different outcome.

LuckyLloyd

RasTa wrote: »

Still going to harp on about the same point, but the mod's have always being saying to report the post and they will deal with it. It seems that people still do not follow this rule and that's when the tediousness begins of people moaning about the standards etc. I don't think having live coverage for example with this weekend's fun fixture would have much of an different outcome.

True, particularly in a high volume forum like soccer (no-one can read every post). But bad behaviour begets bad behaviour, and a thread can disentigrate rapidly if awful posts are left unchecked. Yes, you can go back in and clean it up after the fact, but the mess left to clean up is expotentially worse when there isn't a mod online at the time.

Obviously stories can blow up at any time and problem threads can appear upon the dropping of a transfer story / FA report / manager sacking / whatever, and you can't have 24 hour coverage. But Man City vs Man Utd was scheduled six weeks in advance - it isn't too much to ask for a bit of preplanning, and maybe the drafting in of an Admin / C-Mod if the entire mod team is genuinely going to be AFK for the whole of a problem fixture.

daithijjj

RasTa wrote: »

You do care a little bit or else you wouldn't bother replying. But keep up the campaign for internet justice if it makes you happy.

Typical lowbrow response from yourself but it wasn't unexpected.

Nobody is asking people to be online modding the soccer forum 24/7. However there are occasions and subjects that need a bit of extra attention. Derby games or high profile games (maybe a dozen times in a year) and debate about Racism in the sport are two of those. No real need to be babysitting the place outside of that. If that's too much to ask for then there was no point volunteering, dont start whinging at having to read through a pile of bitching, infracting people, when it was easily preventable, like it has been previously. Previous to this year, any shenanigans was swiftly enough taken care of (as in minutes), this year it hasnt been uncommon for it to go on for several hours, was it Des who spoke about the Manchester Derby?, its been the same on plenty of occasions.

I get on grand with all the mods, i got on with them before some of them were mods and i get on with the mods who have left but still post, there isnt any flashpoints, its not about "justice", its about making the forum better and stifling debate doesn't do that. Its ridiculous to have a thread closed when the subject matter is still in the media, as someone said earlier, PHB seems to be taking this one on the chin for the rest, shouldnt be like that imho.

The government committee set up doesnt believe the FA system is fair and has told them so, the FA have to respond to that by February. But maybe some people dont want to hear that either, maybe it doesnt fit in with their pre determined position. However, the good thing about forums is that we should be able to discuss it beyond the inflammatory headlines, Boards.ie aren't trying to sell papers. I really dont care what you think about the motives behind the OP, they are genuine and i didnt spend alot of time in the initial thread because it was handled poorly imho.

kmart6

Presumably since there has been no form of response on this other then PHB, the modding of the soccer forum is just been let go again I take it?!

Morricone

Without knowing the ins and outs of this as I've only joined boards recently, but surely the soccer forum must be there to facilitate discussion of topics in soccer.

If the mods feel they can't dedicate enough time to monitor it then perhaps they should never have signed up in the first place, or perhaps more moderators need to be drafted in.

Either way the discussion of racism should most definitely be allowed in the soccer forum and the fact that it is barred due to lack of enthusiasm from the moderators is laughable to be frank.

Xavi6

kmart6 wrote: »

Presumably since there has been no form of response on this other then PHB, the modding of the soccer forum is just been let go again I take it?!

Did anyone really expect any other outcome?