Pacquiao v Mayweather

megadodge

Paul,

Your ongoing tirades against Pacquiao are becoming unbearable. You give the man zero credit for anything and come out with this utter sh!te about 'contractually obligated' DLH preventing him from rehydrating. The only problem is - you have not offered one tiny, miserable iota of PROOF!!!

Are you honestly trying to say if that was the case, in a sport of huge egos, absolutely NOBODY on the planet would have come out by now and mentioned it? Because if you are, you really don't know human nature.

Proof please. Or just stop making allegations.

Just to make a quick comparison of the Pac/DLH fight. It would be akin to Gamboa (an exciting, hard-hitting feather, now fighting at super-feather) having one fight at lightweight against an average champ, then stepping up to fight Canelo (a light-middle) who had to come down to welter.

BEFORE any such fight do you think Canelo would be absolutely lambasted left, right and centre for taking on such a fight? Of course he would! And rightfully so!
AFTER any such fight, if he lost, do you think people would give him a free ride and twist it round so that Gamboa was suddenly the bad guy for making a MUCH BIGGER man reduce weight? I'm bloody certain it wouldn't happen. But hey, that's what you're doing with Pacman.

megadodge

Gintonious wrote: »

Apparently he was done out of some scam for an investment, lost a lot of money on that one. He also bigs up how much he earns, he will claim that he got a much higher sum for a fight than he actually did, he said he got $20 million for the WWF thing he did, but he actually got $3.5 million.

His spending as well can't be comprehended, he is insane with his money, and his only source of income is boxing, he has no real big endorsements because no company will want to be associated with a woman beating racist, who can blame them?

Right now he might not be in any real issue, but he spends like Jay-Z or 50 Cent, but they have companies and business with a bankroll coming in, and it will always do that for them even while they sleep at night. For Mayweather, he has to box to get the cash in, and when he does it all goes, a few years ago he threw hundreds of thousands at fans for fun, and puts huge sums down for football games and basketball, and like any gambler he will lose more than he wins.

I'm not entirely convinced Mayweather goes through as much cash as he makes out. I think it's just part of the 'Money' persona and exaggerated intentionally to 'enhance' his image.

TheNap

Think it was the Hatton / Mayweather 24/7 when Mayweather is showing the cameras around his mansion , he turned to the camera and said 'the difference between me and everyone else ? All my s**t is paid for ' ... I reckon he is pretty clever with his money myself

willmunny1990

I think Mayweather beats Canelo and Guerrero easily.

Canelo is still largely unproven, he will probably go on and dominate but at the moment he's fought no one of real quality. I think meeting Floyd at the moment is all wrong for him, he needs more experience and better quality opponents under his belt before going near Floyd IMO.

cowzerp

megadodge wrote: »

Paul,

Your ongoing tirades against Pacquiao are becoming unbearable. You give the man zero credit for anything and come out with this utter sh!te about 'contractually obligated' DLH preventing him from rehydrating. The only problem is - you have not offered one tiny, miserable iota of PROOF!!!

Are you honestly trying to say if that was the case, in a sport of huge egos, absolutely NOBODY on the planet would have come out by now and mentioned it? Because if you are, you really don't know human nature.

Proof please. Or just stop making allegations.

1st off I never once stated this as Fact, I stated this as Opinion and 1 which i strongly believe, You do realise there is clauses that can be put into contracts where parties can't discuss such clause etc

Ron Frazier wrote an article saying there was a clause that De la Hoya could not rehydrate over 147, I clearly remember during the build up to the fight this issue was been discussed heavily anyway

As i have said numerous times on here, De la hoya would have to be a total idiot to only gain 1lb by choice when so clearly weight drained, He is a very smart man in my opinion so the only other logical reason anyone has given on this thread was Bren who said maybe everything was running out of him and he couldn't rehydrate, but again this would have been made very public and rightly so as reason why Oscar could not compete at any level

So we are left with Oscar been an idiot, been sick which we would have heard about or him not gaining weight for other reasons!

megadodge wrote: »

Just to make a quick comparison of the Pac/DLH fight. It would be akin to Gamboa (an exciting, hard-hitting feather, now fighting at super-feather) having one fight at lightweight against an average champ, then stepping up to fight Canelo (a light-middle) who had to come down to welter.

Canelo is 21-22 and the best out there at Light Middleweight so the comparison ends there, De la Hoya was an already shot fighter who was brought down to a weight that he had Zero hope of competing and it was very cynical of Roach/Manny

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Canelo is 21-22 and the best out there at Light Middleweight so the comparison ends there, De la Hoya was an already shot fighter who was brought down to a weight that he had Zero hope of competing and it was very cynical of Roach/Manny

I must agree. Oscar in 2008 was a shot fighter, although still expected to be too big for Manny. Canelo today is hitting his peak. The comparison is not really all that safe.

Fall_Guy

For me De La Hoya was either contractually obliged not to rehydrate after the weigh-in or their was medically something wrong with him. In the weigh-in photos he looks so gaunt, he has all the look of someone who has made a hard cut. Even just by going back to eating and drinking normally you would expect him to put back on a good few lbs. Either way something seemed to be up.

I wouldn't really use it as a stick to beat Manny with though, and I do feel what he has done is amazing. His victory over Cotto was tremendous and I don't think the 145lb limit made a huge difference to how that fight played out. If i remember correctly Cotto was at least holding his own in the early rounds, if not getting the better of it through solid boxing and excellent use of his jab. Only after feeling Pacquiao's power did he go on the back-foot and invite a more sustained attack from Pacquiao onto himself.

I really really REALLY wanted to see Pacquiao Mayweather a couple of years ago but as time goes by I think the fight favours Mayweather more and more. His pure boxing skills will age better than Manny's freakish physical attributes. Now I think the fight I'd most like to see made is Mayweather versus Canelo.

walshb

My call: Medically something prevented him from gaining and holding the extra weight. I don't believe that he was obliged by a clause to be allowed only a lb or 2. Somebody would have revealed that at some point in time.

Or, maybe Oscar was 150 lbs PLUS on the night. Was the 148 lbs accurately verified, or was it speculated and spoken about? Pro boxing is so full of cons and tricks that it is difficult to take anything as gospel.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

My call: Medically something prevented him from gaining and holding the extra weight. I don't believe that he was obliged by a clause to be allowed only a lb or 2. Somebody would have revealed that at some point in time.

So they'd talk about a contractual agreement but not about a medical reason for him been dehydrated and malnourished in the ring?!

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

So they'd talk about a contractual agreement but not about a medical reason for him been dehydrated and malnourished in the ring?!

Just realised that. Yes, surely either scenario would have resulted in it being made public.

I have no clue. I guess the best option then is to think that the reporting that he was 148 lbs on fight night was not accuarate. I did mention this in my post above.

Frank Bullitt

TheNap wrote: »

Think it was the Hatton / Mayweather 24/7 when Mayweather is showing the cameras around his mansion , he turned to the camera and said 'the difference between me and everyone else ? All my s**t is paid for ' ... I reckon he is pretty clever with his money myself

Time will tell on that one. I have no doubt that he owns all of his "****", but its the amount that he owns that could be the issue, moeny is the main thing in hie life, and he throws it about like it's no ones business, hence the name "money Mayweather" and not "Pretty boy Floyd", although you box to make money more than anything.

Halloween Jack

Gintonious wrote: »

Time will tell on that one. I have no doubt that he owns all of his "****", but its the amount that he owns that could be the issue, moeny is the main thing in hie life, and he throws it about like it's no ones business, hence the name "money Mayweather" and not "Pretty boy Floyd", although you box to make money more than anything.

If the coupons he posts on twitter are anything to go by, he's liberal with his dough anyway. He's cooled on posting them lately but a while back he was posting dockets worth half a mill regular enough. Fairly ****ing vulgar really....

megadodge

cowzerp wrote: »

Canelo is 21-22 and the best out there at Light Middleweight so the comparison ends there, De la Hoya was an already shot fighter who was brought down to a weight that he had Zero hope of competing and it was very cynical of Roach/Manny

A "shot fighter" who only two fights before that went to a split decision with Mayweather??

Oscar was a heavy favourite going into the Pac fight.

My comparison was a weight one (so insert any light-middle champ) and it still stands.


I've replied to your PM also.

cowzerp

megadodge wrote: »

A "shot fighter" who only two fights before that went to a split decision with Mayweather??

Oscar was a heavy favourite going into the Pac fight.

My comparison was a weight one (so insert any light-middle champ) and it still stands..

Against Floyd Oscar was huge! At least 20-30 lbs heavier fight night than against Manny, floyd did not even leave 2nd gear and won the fight v the much stronger man-the Oscar manny fought was this 1 but less muscle and dehydrated to bits. The story of Mannys heavier fights. And he's no problem forcing Marquez up weight either when it suited him again

The catch weight champion of the world manny PAC

megadodge

cowzerp wrote: »

Against Floyd Oscar was huge! At least 20-30 lbs heavier fight night than against Manny, floyd did not even leave 2nd gear and won the fight v the much stronger man-the Oscar manny fought was this 1 but less muscle and dehydrated to bits. The story of Mannys heavier fights. And he's no problem forcing Marquez up weight either when it suited him again

The catch weight champion of the world manny PAC

Oscar was definitely dehydrated in the Pac fight. You don't have to be a boxing expert to see that. But that has nothing to do with Manny. Oscar and his team messed up somewhere.

Using your logic a super-feather (having moved up from flyweight) who has just had one fight at lightweight should have fought at 11 stone? Even in boxing that would have been regarded as cynical in the extreme - by Oscar!! The fight would never have been made. It's exactly like Gamboa fighting one of the top light-middles. Would you regard that as a fair matchup?

cowzerp

Once again, Oscar was not near a top fighter in any division at this time, he was in reality never that great and lost to most the best he fought. I was a big fan of his but lets get real here.

Floyd fought him as healthy washed up fighter, Manny fought him as an 1.5 year older washed up ill fighter at 9 lbs lower weight on the scales and even more gap in the ring, this is just simple fact and nothing else.

el flaco

Mayweather v Guerrero looking the very likely matchup for May 4th.

http://www.boxingscene.com/mayweather-vs-guerrero-close-done-4th--60713

cowzerp

el flaco wrote: »

Mayweather v Guerrero looking the very likely matchup for May 4th.

http://www.boxingscene.com/mayweather-vs-guerrero-close-done-4th--60713

If this happens then Canelo after that i'd be very happy.

megadodge

cowzerp wrote: »

Once again, Oscar was not near a top fighter in any division at this time, he was in reality never that great and lost to most the best he fought. I was a big fan of his but lets get real here.

Floyd fought him as healthy washed up fighter, Manny fought him as an 1.5 year older washed up ill fighter at 9 lbs lower weight on the scales and even more gap in the ring, this is just simple fact and nothing else.

Once again you ignored my question.

Would you regard Gamboa fighting any of the top light-middles as a fair fight?

cowzerp

megadodge wrote: »

Once again you ignored my question.

Would you regard Gamboa fighting any of the top light-middles as a fair fight?

It's irrelevant, Gamboa is not Manny and De la Hoya was not a top middleweight. I've never once said manny was not a great talent, I knew this years before he was world famous, what I question is him picking opponents and weight to suit him and hurt opponents. This is what he does and you know it.


Plus he didn't fight De la Hoya at light middle so moot point.

Henno30

Fall_Guy wrote: »

For me De La Hoya was either contractually obliged not to rehydrate after the weigh-in or their was medically something wrong with him. In the weigh-in photos he looks so gaunt, he has all the look of someone who has made a hard cut. Even just by going back to eating and drinking normally you would expect him to put back on a good few lbs. Either way something seemed to be up.

I wouldn't really use it as a stick to beat Manny with though, and I do feel what he has done is amazing. His victory over Cotto was tremendous and I don't think the 145lb limit made a huge difference to how that fight played out. If i remember correctly Cotto was at least holding his own in the early rounds, if not getting the better of it through solid boxing and excellent use of his jab. Only after feeling Pacquiao's power did he go on the back-foot and invite a more sustained attack from Pacquiao onto himself.

I really really REALLY wanted to see Pacquiao Mayweather a couple of years ago but as time goes by I think the fight favours Mayweather more and more. His pure boxing skills will age better than Manny's freakish physical attributes. Now I think the fight I'd most like to see made is Mayweather versus Canelo.

Hard to argue with any of that. I think the major problem Pacquiao faces against Mayweather is his inability to close the distance against a counter-puncher. I definitely think he can break the shell down and hit Mayweather, if he's in range, but I just don't see Floyd letting him get the opportunity. I just see Floyd keeping him at range and Manny lunging and over-reaching as he was against Marquez last year and against Bradley in June.

It's not beyond the realms of possibility that it could be a great fight, Floyd is not as quick on his feet as he used to be and Manny's hands are probably as quick as ever. But I think the odds favour it being a boring affair with Mayweather taking a decisive points victory.

megadodge

cowzerp wrote: »

It's irrelevant, Gamboa is not Manny and De la Hoya was not a top middleweight. I've never once said manny was not a great talent, I knew this years before he was world famous, what I question is him picking opponents and weight to suit him and hurt opponents. This is what he does and you know it.


Plus he didn't fight De la Hoya at light middle so moot point.

I'm assuming you meant light-middle (highlighted).

And if you did, you're wrong. De La Hoya certainly was a top light-middle, as proven by his narrow split decision loss to the acknowledged best in the division only two fights before. How could it mean anything else?

And my point is (yet again), that you expected Pacman to fight De La Hoya at light-middle, despite the fact that he was only a super-feather, who had just had his first fight at lightweight. Would you expect Gamboa to fight Conelius Bundrage (IBF), Baysangurov (WBA), Austin Trout (WBA ordinary) or Miguel Cotto at light-middle? It would be laughed at and rightfully so. And don't tell me those guys are any better than Oscar was back then, cos if you believe that then you believe any of them could bring Floyd to a close split decision. They wouldn't. And we all know that. And Floyd is 5 years older now.

If any of those made a fight with Gamboa and it was agreed they would drop to welter to accomodate him, do you think Gamboa would suddenly become the betting favourite? He wouldn't. It would still be regarded as a mismatch. And that's the way the Pac/DLH fight was regarded BEFORE the fight.

Everybody knew the fight was Oscar's first at welter for years, yet he was still a big favourite. And since he was so much smaller nobody was making Pacquiao out to be doing something wrong by having the fight at welter BEFORE the fight. Just because Oscar messed up / overestimated his ability to lose the weight don't try putting that on Pacquiao.

cowzerp

Comparing Canelo now to de La Hoya then is hilarious!! Alvarez is a 21-22 year old who's the next big thing in boxing! De la Hoya was just near 37 and had lost 3 out of 5 light middle fights-either way the point I'd making him a shell was planned as they knew and Roach is on record in saying it, that De la Hoya could not compete at welter, and for the record Floyd the welterweight was 1 of de la Hoyas lose at light middle! And despite Mayweather leaving 2nd gear it was actually a very easy win for floyd despite the split decision. I think like me in the night the de la Hoya fans where been biased and rewarding terrible aggression with no end product.

Halloween Jack

cowzerp wrote: »

Comparing Canelo now to de La Hoya then is hilarious!! Alvarez is a 21-22 year old who's the next big thing in boxing! De la Hoya was just near 37 and had lost 3 out of 5 light middle fights-either way the point I'd making him a shell was planned as they knew and Roach is on record in saying it, that De la Hoya could not compete at welter, and for the record Floyd the welterweight was 1 of de la Hoyas lose at light middle! And despite Mayweather leaving 2nd gear it was actually a very easy win for floyd despite the split decision. I think like me in the night the de la Hoya fans where been biased and rewarding terrible aggression with no end product.

Find myself agreeing with the majority of your posts on this topic cowzer,

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Comparing Canelo now to de La Hoya then is hilarious!! Alvarez is a 21-22 year old who's the next big thing in boxing! De la Hoya was just near 37 and had lost 3 out of 5 light middle fights-either way the point I'd making him a shell was planned as they knew and Roach is on record in saying it, that De la Hoya could not compete at welter, and for the record Floyd the welterweight was 1 of de la Hoyas lose at light middle! And despite Mayweather leaving 2nd gear it was actually a very easy win for floyd despite the split decision. I think like me in the night the de la Hoya fans where been biased and rewarding terrible aggression with no end product.

I don't think it was at all an easy night for Floyd. I believe you originally had Oscar a narrow winner. Not sure how this now goes to an easy night to Floyd. It was a split decision. Floyd was made work very hard for that win. Not arguing with a Floyd win, but I don't think it was easy.

As to Canelo. Canelo today is better than Oscar from 2007.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

I don't think it was at all an easy night for Floyd. I believe you originally had Oscar a narrow winner. Not sure how this now goes to an easy night to Floyd. It was a split decision. Floyd was made work very hard for that win. Not arguimg with a Floyd win, but I don't think it was easy.

As to Canelo. Canelo today is better than Oscar from 2007.

I watched it like most, including the commentators as really wanting Oscsr to win-when I watched it back Oscar hit shoulders all night and barely landed a glove on Floyd, unless you call holding with 1 hand and punching with the other hitting.

Either way, comparing this big and healthy Oscsr to the year and a half older weight drained shell that manny fought is ludicrous

And Gamboa is no Manny either, fact is de la Hoya was set up to fail.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

IEither way, comparing this big and healthy Oscsr to the year and a half older weight drained shell that manny fought is ludicrous
.

They are worlds apart.

walshb

megadodge wrote: »

I'm assuming you meant light-middle (highlighted).

And if you did, you're wrong. De La Hoya certainly was a top light-middle, as proven by his narrow split decision loss to the acknowledged best in the division only two fights before. How could it mean anything else?

.

Floyd I don't believe was the acknowledged best in the division. That was his first ever fight at the weight. He weighed 150 I think, and after that fight he went back to WW. Wasn't Vernon Forrest and Cory Spinks the leading names back in April/May 2007?

BTW, in 2007, yes, Oscar was a top fighter at LMW. I still think Oscar was a bit past his best days.

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

BTW, in 2007, yes, Oscar was a top fighter at LMW. I still think Oscar was a bit past his best days.

Yes but Mega is claiming that in December 2008 that he was a top light middle, since 2003 he had had 5 Light middle fights only winning 3 of them, hardly top light middle standard, his 3 lightmiddle wins been against Mayorga, Campas and Vargas

and in the De la hoya v Mayweather fight Floyd dominated the stats, connecting 207 of his 481 total punches thrown. De La Hoya threw more punches—587—but landed only 122, that's a big margin.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

Yes but Mega is claiming that in December 2008 that he was a top light middle, since 2003 he had had 5 Light middle fights only winning 3 of them, hardly top light middle standard, his 3 lightmiddle wins been against Mayorga, Campas and Vargas

and in the De la hoya v Mayweather fight Floyd dominated the stats, connecting 207 of his 481 total punches thrown. De La Hoya threw more punches—587—but landed only 122, that's a big margin.

One needs only look at Oscar vs. Forbes to know that he regressed a fair bit between 2007 and 2008.

megadodge

cowzerp wrote: »

Yes but Mega is claiming that in December 2008 that he was a top light middle, since 2003 he had had 5 Light middle fights only winning 3 of them, hardly top light middle standard, his 3 lightmiddle wins been against Mayorga, Campas and Vargas

and in the De la hoya v Mayweather fight Floyd dominated the stats, connecting 207 of his 481 total punches thrown. De La Hoya threw more punches—587—but landed only 122, that's a big margin.

One of those "losses" was the second Mosely fight. You don't actually believe Oscar lost that fight, do you?

The other was a close loss to Mayweather (there are still plenty who thought Oscar won - I don't, but it shows it was close). How many other light-middles would have given Mayweather a close fight? Very few. Which means by definition he was a top light-middle.

As for Canelo, yes, after I mentioned him initially, I realised he's probably better now than Oscar was then, so I used Conelius Bundrage (IBF), Baysangurov (WBA), Austin Trout (WBA ordinary) or Miguel Cotto as similars and asked the same question, but hey, you refused to answer it - yet again!! - and went back to Canelo. You'd make a great politician

There's a paragraph at the end of this Wikipedia piece that you should read. It's the bit titled 'September 20 rematch'. It shows what I remember being talked about at the time and that is that if they were to have a rematch it was going to be at welter!! That's why Oscar's next fight against Forbes was at 150. Oscar was going down in weight anyway. Pacquiao's name is nowhere to be seen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_De_La_Hoya_vs._Floyd_Mayweather

cowzerp

I think you're missing the point that Oscar was simply drained and Roach and Manny knew this would be the case, This was not heroic of Manny taking on a Zombie!

Same happened Cotto who looked a hell of a lot healthier versus Mayweather when he was fighting at the healthier weight.

Why did Oscar not rehydrate? this is ridiculous-He didn't in my opinion as he would have lost millions if he did-yes i know before you say it, this is speculation but please come up with a better explanation, the only other plausible 1 would be the sickness 1 and that surely would have been made public, I've been there several times and you feel like you're going to die, He did not do this by choice.

And Manny is way better than Gamboa ever was or will be and a heavier hitter more suited to the heavier weights, And even Gamboa would have beaten the shell that was De la Hoya

megadodge

cowzerp wrote: »

I think you're missing the point that Oscar was simply drained and Roach and Manny knew this would be the case, This was not heroic of Manny taking on a Zombie!

Same happened Cotto who looked a hell of a lot healthier versus Mayweather when he was fighting at the healthier weight.

Why did Oscar not rehydrate? this is ridiculous-He didn't in my opinion as he would have lost millions if he did-yes i know before you say it, this is speculation but please come up with a better explanation, the only other plausible 1 would be the sickness 1 and that surely would have been made public, I've been there several times and you feel like you're going to die, He did not do this by choice.

And Manny is way better than Gamboa ever was or will be and a heavier hitter more suited to the heavier weights, And even Gamboa would have beaten the shell that was De la Hoya

I didn't miss any point, as I've already mentioned that DLH was obviously dehydrated. That has never been the issue.

As shown in the wikipedia link, Oscar was already making preparations to move down to welter to fight Floyd Mayweather in a rematch. He fought Forbes at 150 as preparation, but Floyd 'retired'. The fight with Pacman was then made at welter, where he was going to be fighting anyway. The fact that Oscar struggled so badly to make the weight was his own fault/miscalculation. He should have known his own body better. But the bottom line is nobody knew this BEFORE the fight. Hindsight has 20/20 vision.

You seem to think the fight should have been made at 11 stone. A super-feather moving up to take on a light-middle!! When has that ever been done before? Henry Armstrong fought for the middle title having weighed around 140 for most of his previous fights. That's the nearest I can think of, but don't let that get in the way of your theory.

cowzerp

Oscar showed he could not compete at 150 with his lacklustre performance v Forbes. The fight should have been 150 at lowest and either way that's not my point. Again you're ignoring my real point, Why Oscar got in the ring lighter than manny at 147, I say he had to-this is the real problem, it would be easy to go back up to 165 after making 145 in over 24 hours, they where main event so was probably more like 30 hours, and I know as I've done this myself several times

So what's your opinion on what happened?!

Miscalculation? If so-Laughable.

Sickness? Why would they not have stated this.

Contractually obliged? Many contracts have keeping details secret in them or penalty s can be faced.

We can go back and forward but I see or as he was set to fail by contract, nothing else makes any sense in this situation.

megadodge

I have just as little idea of what happened as you do. I was amazed he came in at 145 in the first place. That would suggest serious miscalculation before we even come anywhere near the non-rehydration issue. When asked about it Oscar claimed at the time the reason he came in so low was for speed purposes, which I thought was robbing Peter to pay Paul.

You believe he was contractually obliged to not rehydrate. I don't, mainly because I don't believe Oscar would agree to it (you said it yourself, he's a smart man) and secondly I can't believe in the intervening time somebody, somewhere with that knowledge is going to stay quiet on it. It could be 'leaked' very easily, so why not? You've admitted yourself the theory is complete spculation. I agree.

cowzerp

All our chat on it is speculation, not gaining the weight would be difficult-gaining 10 lbs after weight cut would be easy.

cowzerp

Is anyone still interested in the Mayweather v Pacquiao fight?

personally i think it would be an easy win for Floyd and there is tougher fights out there, Mainly Martinez and Canelo

darced

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