You can't quit UK without my approval, David Cameron warns Scots

bwatson

Border-Rat wrote: »

Yes, anyone can state this. However, you are not able to demonstrate it. Go on, in your own time.

I refer you back to your post in which you stated Tony Blair was an Englishman.

Moreover, just how much research have you done on Iran's present capabilties to fight a conventional, high-intensity war against the combined forces of the United States, the United Kingdom, and no doubt several other NATO member states?

Border-Rat

bwatson wrote: »

I refer you back to your post in which you stated Tony Blair was an Englishman.

Tony Blairs parents are English. You're not seriously suggesting genetics change on the basis of positioning?

Moreover, just how much research have you done on Iran's present capabilties to fight a conventional, high-intensity war against the combined forces of the United States, the United Kingdom, and no doubt several other NATO member states?

Plenty. They can shut down the Strait of Hormuz, inflame the situation in Afghanistan, shower Israel with high-explosive missiles and thats just for starters. Their two proxy armies defeated the US Military in the Battle of Fallujah, yet you're insinuating their main forces will not inflict serious damage at all? Their third proxy army defeated Israel in 2006. Shi'ites alligned with Iran defeated Britain in Basra in 2007.

bwatson

Border-Rat wrote: »

Tony Blairs parents are English. You're not seriously suggesting genetics change on the basis of positioning?



Plenty. They can shut down the Strait of Hormuz, inflame the situation in Afghanistan, shower Israel with high-explosive missiles and thats just for starters. Their two proxy armies defeated the US Military in the Battle of Fallujah, yet you're insinuating their main forces will not inflict serious damage at all? Their third proxy army defeated Israel in 2006. Shi'ites alligned with Iran defeated Britain in Basra in 2007.

On your first point - oh dear. You may want to research Tony Blair, then return to this thread and amend your responses.

On your second point, you either didn't understand the question, or understood it perfectly well but didn't want to simply write "no".

I am insinuating nothing. I am asking whether you ever bother to ensure that the content of your posts is accurate.

Actually on second thoughts, please don't bother. We all know what you are.

djrichard

bwatson wrote: »

From a Northern Irish viewpoint, the only real arrogance appears to be coming from north of the border. Constant talk of the referendum, the questions to be put to the Scottish people, the Scots weighing up whether or not they will be better off with or without England. It is clear that any union that exists today is not through a unity of peoples, or histories and experiences, and common identity but through the Scots being unsure of what to do for the good of for themselves and themselves alone. You have no interest in unity at all.

Most English want rid of you anyway. It will never, ever happen but it would be fantastic if after years of talking about your referendum, and whether or not you will leave the English, that it was overturned only for England and Wales to decide to go it alone themselves and screw you bitter individuals over. A free Norn Iron would be a boost too (of course retaining the monarch as our head of state).

I find it hard to listen to your viewpoint given where you are from and the manner in which you put your point. I guess living where you do, and experiencing all the hatred etc over the years, will naturally have given you strong opinions on the subject. I dont care to get into a conversation about Northern Ireland, it is a subject which bores the life out of me as it has been dragging on for years, and no doubt will continue to do so for quite some time yet. Your wish that England screw us over, tells me that its perhaps you that is the bitter twisted freak who cannot see the wood for the trees and not I. You state that the English dont want us, yet if you were to ask the average punter in the street, the majority of the UK and a lot of Eire would like to dig up the border and push your part of the country as far away into the Atlantic as possible and to take your troubles with you.

My opinion is based more on an emotional level than anything else. Ive many many friends who are English, I have family who live there. I dont hate the English at all. I am on Teamspeak playing Battlefield 3 most nights with English people, and the 3 Scots who are in our clan, are always having a bit of banter about Scotland against England etc, we all have a laugh doing it, it is after all, just banter.

The fact is I still want to be an independant country. I want to have a Scottish passport. I would wish that my country is fully governed by its own parliament and we have 100% say in how our country is run. I happen to be born into the United Kingdom, but growing up, hearing history and just having conversations with my friends, Ive always wished to be independant. These feelings are only stirred further by English sports commentators who refer to any great Scottish sportsman as British, and any English sportsman as English. There is huge rivalry between the country and history had best not be forgotten. That does not mean we cant move forward with out relationships with people, but at the end of the day we are a seperate country from England. Just because for a long time we have lived in relative harmony, does not mean that we shouldnt have control over our own destiny.

Ive always supported the underdogs in most things in my life, its just the way I am. Hearing of Irelands struggle to gain independance is an awful thing, the pain and suffering that happened then, however they are free now to control their own fate. I just wish that Scotland has the same opportunity, and thankfully in this age we can do it without any bloodshed.

I dont even blame England for not putting Scotland interests first, why would they? We are so far away up North, we might not even exist for some other than on the weather map. More localised control has surely got to be the right thing for our people.

Border-Rat

bwatson wrote: »

On your first point - oh dear. You may want to research Tony Blair, then return to this thread and amend your responses.

Leo-Charles Blair, Englishman.

On your second point, you either didn't understand the question, or understood it perfectly well but didn't want to simply write "no".

Aw, no response? Your 'question', was a dressed-up point that Iran could not inflict casualties on NATO. Since I have proven otherwise, you're now backing off from that point with yet more ad hom. I don't blame you.

I am insinuating nothing. I am asking whether you ever bother to ensure that the content of your posts is accurate.

Okay. Which content is innacurate, provide examples and I will prove accuracy.

Actually on second thoughts, please don't bother. We all know what you are.

What am I?

bwatson

djrichard wrote: »

I find it hard to listen to your viewpoint given where you are from and the manner in which you put your point. I guess living where you do, and experiencing all the hatred etc over the years, will naturally have given you strong opinions on the subject. I dont care to get into a conversation about Northern Ireland, it is a subject which bores the life out of me as it has been dragging on for years, and no doubt will continue to do so for quite some time yet. Your wish that England screw us over, tells me that its perhaps you that is the bitter twisted freak who cannot see the wood for the trees and not I. You state that the English dont want us, yet if you were to ask the average punter in the street, the majority of the UK and a lot of Eire would like to dig up the border and push your part of the country as far away into the Atlantic as possible and to take your troubles with you.

My opinion is based more on an emotional level than anything else. Ive many many friends who are English, I have family who live there. I dont hate the English at all. I am on Teamspeak playing Battlefield 3 most nights with English people, and the 3 Scots who are in our clan, are always having a bit of banter about Scotland against England etc, we all have a laugh doing it, it is after all, just banter.

The fact is I still want to be an independant country. I want to have a Scottish passport. I would wish that my country is fully governed by its own parliament and we have 100% say in how our country is run. I happen to be born into the United Kingdom, but growing up, hearing history and just having conversations with my friends, Ive always wished to be independant. These feelings are only stirred further by English sports commentators who refer to any great Scottish sportsman as British, and any English sportsman as English. There is huge rivalry between the country and history had best not be forgotten. That does not mean we cant move forward with out relationships with people, but at the end of the day we are a seperate country from England. Just because for a long time we have lived in relative harmony, does not mean that we shouldnt have control over our own destiny.

Ive always supported the underdogs in most things in my life, its just the way I am. Hearing of Irelands struggle to gain independance is an awful thing, the pain and suffering that happened then, however they are free now to control their own fate. I just wish that Scotland has the same opportunity, and thankfully in this age we can do it without any bloodshed.

I dont even blame England for not putting Scotland interests first, why would they? We are so far away up North, we might not even exist for some other than on the weather map. More localised control has surely got to be the right thing for our people.

I don't understand the relevance of much of this post. I have never once accused you of being anglophobic. I said that if any nation is showing itself up as arrogant at the moment, it is the Scots. I retain this belief. It is in no way a bitter or twisted desire to want England, Wales and Northern Ireland to gain their independence from the Scots either. Ironic? Certainly. Twisted? No. Is your current SNP campaign bitter and twisted? Not at all. Why would the reverse desire be so? Please explain!

I'm pleased you have so many English friends however. I'm at university in England, lovely bunch on the whole.

It is quite sad that you refuse to listen to the views of a person due to his nationality however, I believe that sort of stance is no longer accepted in civilized society.

Fratton Fred

Border-Rat wrote: »

Leo-Charles Blair, Englishman.

Who was adopted by a Glaswegian couple, whose name he took and was raised in the tenements of Glasgow, before going on to become secretary general of the Scottish young Communists. He then Married Hazel, an Ulster Scot from Donegal. Their son Tony was born in Edinburgh and eventually went to Fettes school in Edinburgh.

English my arse.

bwatson

Leo-Charles Blair, Englishman.

That is one side of the family, it is interesting that you have left out the other side, probably because it goes to show that he is as Irish/Scottish as English, if we are using your strange method of determining nationality through genetic make up - an extremely outdated way of determining nationality. Either way, you are wrong. Were you trying to suggest something about his "English blood" being a significant factor behind his lust for war? It comes across that way.

Aw, no response? Your 'question', was a dressed-up point that Iran could not inflict casualties on NATO. Since I have proven otherwise, you're now backing off from that point with yet more ad hom. I don't blame you.

You have proven nothing. What on earth makes you think you have proven anything? The most intelligent and respected defence analysts and military historians in the western world would be hesitant to predict the outcome of any further conflict in the middle east, yet here we have a chap who didn't realise Tony Blair was a Scot stating he has proven how a war between Iran and the West would pan out. Your arrogance is staggering. Furthermore, your proof contained little in the way of any historical evidence that Iran would be victorious in a "conventional, high intensiy war" as suggested.

Okay. Which content is innacurate, provide examples and I will prove accuracy.

Just about everything, but sadly I doubt many posters will take your (somewhat ill-informed) opinions and predictions as proof.

What am I?

A borderline idiot, by the looks of things.

Now, have a good day.

Red Crow

What's the point of Scotland leading? Won't they still be relying on England for support? Military, public schooling, health etc.

I imagine Scotland would be far better off remaining in the UK than out of it.

Wouldn't the whole thing be vastly damaging to both England's and Scotland's economies.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

Cheers Fred, I (.......)this very topic!

Earlier you stated

The ramifications of a UK breakup are far too serious & far reaching as to be dictated by the likes of Alex Salmond ......

Could you please explain what you mean by "the likes of Alex Salmond".

Cú Giobach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Their son Tony was born in Edinburgh and eventually went to Fettes school in Edinburgh.
English my arse.

You forgot the bit about moving to Australia as a baby, staying there for a few years and the family then moving to England where he grew up and then being sent to a posh school in Edinburgh. He is about as Scottish as KeithAFC is Irish.

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

Could you please explain what you mean by "the likes of Alex Salmond".

What I mean is, the break-up of the United Kingdom is far too big for the likes of a a single politiician to determine, specially the likes of Alex Salmond, who is hell bent on taking Scotland out of the Union at any cost (and only on his terms).

windingo

LordSutch wrote: »

What I mean is, the break-up of the United Kingdom is far too big for the likes of a a single politiician to determine, specially the likes of Alex Salmond, who is hell bent on taking Scotland out of the Union at any cost (and only on his terms).

I that clear enough for you now Nodin?

Regardless, it would be the people that decide. I doubt that a referendum about Independence would be taken lightly by the electorate, they would look at the Terms and Conditions set by either 'side' and cast their vote depending on how they prefer or dislike the terms. If they voted for a 'Yes' then clearly they support Salmond's policies and if this is so then who has the right to question this other than the Scots that voted?

dublinscot

Regarding Tony Blair... If you asked him he would describe himself as British, which to my mind is effectively the same as English (86% of Britons along with most British symbols and iconography are English).

LordSutch

windingo wrote: »

Regardless, it would be the people that decide. I doubt that a referendum about Independence would be taken lightly by the electorate, they would look at the Terms and Conditions set by either 'side' and cast their vote depending on how they prefer or dislike the terms. If they voted for a 'Yes' then clearly they support Salmond's policies and if this is so then who has the right to question this other than the Scots that voted?

Without Salmond at the helm would there even be a free Scotland (break up the UK) movement?

dublinscot

LordSutch wrote: »

Without Salmond at the helm would there even be a free Scotland (break up the UK) movement?

Of course! The 'Free Scotland' movement started as far back as 1713 when all of the Scottish Lords in Westminster voted to repeal the Act of Union (though the motion was defeated by 4 votes).

"We have catch'd Scotland and we will hold her fast" (Speaker of the House of Commons 1707)

Border-Rat

bwatson wrote: »

That is one side of the family, it is interesting that you have left out the other side, probably because it goes to show that he is as Irish/Scottish as English, if we are using your strange method of determining nationality through genetic make up - an extremely outdated way of determining nationality.

Neither of his parents were Scottish. When confronted with this, you say that this does not matter. The fact that Blair was born in Edinburgh places him in a position to be representative enough of Scotland - that ethnic considerations are outdated. By this logic and by default, you must mean cultural. But yet again, in that sense, Blair is still an Englishman, he was raised in English culture.

Either way, you are wrong. Were you trying to suggest something about his "English blood" being a significant factor behind his lust for war? It comes across that way.

Well no, I'm merely stating inconvenient statistics. For example, the UK has been involved in no less than 42 foreign "operations" in foreign Countries since the end of WW2 (Source, Losing Small Wars, Frank Ledwidge, 2011). All of these have been overseen by English Prime Ministers. Heath, Churchill, Thatcher, Major etc. And these have been voted in by England, with a majority vote.

Thus, dragging Scotland into war after war.

You have proven nothing. What on earth makes you think you have proven anything?

I have provided an interpretation. You have failed to rebuttal it because you know you can't. The irony here is that you fling insults about intelligence. In your own time, debunk my analysis.

The most intelligent and respected defence analysts and military historians in the western world would be hesitant to predict the outcome of any further conflict in the middle east, yet here we have a chap who didn't realise Tony Blair was a Scot stating he has proven how a war between Iran and the West would pan out.

Actually, the backbone of my analysis comes from the US Military 2002 Millenium Wargames. The US Military practiced my scenario, they evidently took it seriously enough a proposal to spend massive amounts of money on it. You really are out of your depth, aren't you?

our arrogance is staggering. Furthermore, your proof contained little in the way of any historical evidence that Iran would be victorious in a "conventional, high intensiy war" as suggested.

Actually, it did contain historical evidence. Examples which you chose to ignore. In fact, it contained three examples: The First Battle of Fallujah, the war in Lebanon, 2006 and the War for Basra, which ended in 2007.

Just about everything, but sadly I doubt many posters will take your (somewhat ill-informed) opinions and predictions as proof.

In other words, you can't back up your allegations. Lets start with one example.

A borderline idiot, by the looks of things.

Now, have a good day.

This ad hom is ironic. I think your refusal to back up your own allegations is more revealing about who exactly is the idiot here.

Nodin

LordSutch wrote: »

What I mean is, the break-up of the United Kingdom is far too big for the likes of a a single politiician to determine, specially the likes of Alex Salmond, who is hell bent on taking Scotland out of the Union at any cost (and only on his terms).

You're 'explaining' it by doing the same thing again. What do you mean by the bolded section?

windingo

Eli Manning wrote: »

What's the point of Scotland leading? Won't they still be relying on England for support? Military, public schooling, health etc.

I imagine Scotland would be far better off remaining in the UK than out of it.

Wouldn't the whole thing be vastly damaging to both England's and Scotland's economies.

Last time I checked Scotland was the only devolved power to be giving money back to the UK rather than draining it like the rest.

Fratton Fred

dublinscot wrote: »

Regarding Tony Blair... If you asked him he would describe himself as British, which to my mind is effectively the same as English (86% of Britons along with most British symbols and iconography are English).

The only people that call themselves British live in Ireland and given his Donegal roots, it would be easiest to just label him as an Irishman and have done with it.

Basically, no one particularly wants him.

Batsy

Originally Posted by djrichard
I want Scotland to be independant.

Justification : I dont like being ruled by the English and their arrogance. I dont want to be dragged into war after war after war as the UK follow the US policing this planet for their own agenda. I dont want Scottish soldiers being killed when the almost inevitable invasion of Iran begins.

The Scots aren't ruled by the English. Scotland is a partner within the UK. Scotland is ruled by Westminster - which is the British Parliament, not the English Parliament - and by its own parliament at Holyrood.

This actually makes Scotland more independent than England, because England doesn't have its own parliament with just English MPs in it making decisions on English-only matters.

I think it's a disgrace that English MPs are not allowed a say in Scottish-only matters due to the fact that these are decided upon by Scottish MPs only in the Scottish parliament, whereas Scottish (and Welsh and Northern Irish) MPs are allowed a say in English-only matters due to the fact that England doesn't have its own parliament.

Border-Rat

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The only people that call themselves British live in Ireland and given his Donegal roots, it would be easiest to just label him as an Irishman and have done with it.

Basically, no one particularly wants him.

Aside, of course, from the English. Who gave Blair his majority re-election vote after he had been exposed as a war criminal in 2004-2005? Was it;

a) Scotland, Country of 5 million voters
b) 'Engerrland', Country of 50 million voters?

Batsy

dlofnep wrote: »

And it just simply isn't the case, as I have already pointed out with the Czech Republic.

I've already proven to you that an independent Scotland will have to leave the EU and, if it re-joins - which will take a while - it will have to join the euro at some point. Stop arguing with the proven facts and just admit that you were wrong and I was right.

All new EU member states have to join the Euro once they fulfil the necessary monetary and budgetary conditions. Of the new member states that joined the EU in 2004, Slovenia adopted the Euro in 2007, Cyprus and Malta followed in 2008, Slovakia joined in 2009 and Estonia in January 2011.

http://www.civitas.org.uk/eufacts/FSECON/EC4.htm

Scotland is not an EU Member state. It is a part of the EU Member State known as the UK. Therefore an independent Scotland will have to leave the EU and then apply to re-join it if it wants to as a brand new Member State. But the application to re-join could take several years and may damage its economy. And, as I've shown again above, once in the EU as a new Member State it will have to join the euro.

dublinscot

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The only people that call themselves British live in Ireland

Yeah, but there are also proper Britons that would describe their nationality as British first. In Scotland the percentage is miniscule, and getting smaller every year. They tend to be the ruling class elites (like Gordon Brown for example).

In England, the number of people answering British first to the identity question is much larger, as it's much more of a popular identity with the ordinary man in the street. IMO this is because Britishness and Englishness are almost synonymous - culturally, politically....

Fratton Fred

Border-Rat wrote: »

Neither of his parents were Scottish. When confronted with this, you say that this does not matter. The fact that Blair was born in Edinburgh places him in a position to be representative enough of Scotland - that ethnic considerations are outdated. By this logic and by default, you must mean cultural. But yet again, in that sense, Blair is still an Englishman, he was raised in English culture.



Well no, I'm merely stating inconvenient statistics. For example, the UK has been involved in no less than 42 foreign "operations" in foreign Countries since the end of WW2 (Source, Losing Small Wars, Frank Ledwidge, 2011). All of these have been overseen by English Prime Ministers. Heath, Churchill, Thatcher, Major etc. And these have been voted in by England, with a majority vote.

Thus, dragging Scotland into war after wa

Could you provide something to back up your claim that someone born to a Scottish raised father and an Ulster Scot mother was raised in English culture please. The general consensus seems to be that he is Scottish http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061101060737AANNJcv

Also, fyi, Ireland's military has been involved in 33 overseas operations since 1958.

Damn those Irish and their murdering ways.

Batsy

Border-Rat wrote: »

Who gave Blair his majority re-election vote after he had been exposed as a war criminal in 2004-2005?

The Scots.

The Tories got the most votes and most seats in England in the 2005 General Election (so an independent England would have had a Tory government between 2005 and 2010), but Blair won the election only because of the Scottish votes that Labour received.

Fratton Fred

Border-Rat wrote: »

Aside, of course, from the English. Who gave Blair his majority re-election vote after he had been exposed as a war criminal in 2004-2005? Was it;

a) Scotland, Country of 5 million voters
b) 'Engerrland', Country of 50 million voters?

Personally I voted for Theressa May at that election, as did most people I know. The Scots have always been labour voters, so maybe you should blame them, or just stop being such an obvious bigot.

celtictiger32

bwatson wrote: »

Most English want rid of you anyway. It will never, ever happen but it would be fantastic if after years of talking about your referendum, and whether or not you will leave the English, that it was overturned only for England and Wales to decide to go it alone themselves and screw you bitter individuals over. A free Norn Iron would be a boost too (of course retaining the monarch as our head of state).

it will be free, as a 32 county irish republic

Border-Rat

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Could you provide something to back up your claim that someone born to a Scottish raised father and an Ulster Scot mother was raised in English culture please. The general consensus seems to be that he is Scottish http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20061101060737AANNJcv

Also, fyi, Ireland's military has been involved in 33 overseas operations since 1958.

Damn those Irish and their murdering ways.

Blair was born in Scotland to non-Scottish parents, which is the point here - this is a topic about Scotland, who then moved to Australia and grew up in England from the late 50's onward.

As for Irish peace-keeping operations, thats exactly what they are. The 'UK' averages one war per decade. It has attacked Iraq no less than 3 times in one century.

Batsy

View wrote: »

And of course the "United Kingdom of the remaining bits of Great Britain & Northern Ireland" (i.e. E, W & NI) would be a new member state too, wouldn't it?

Nope.