You can't quit UK without my approval, David Cameron warns Scots

lugha

realies wrote: »

If Scotland leaves the UK, then the UK would effectively disappear. All that would be left would be England, its long-time vassal state Wales, and far to the north-west the unwanted Northern Ireland. Even if unionists were determined to avoid re-uniting with the rest of Ireland, they would have a difficult choice to make – to try to follow Scotland out of the UK and form some sort of Scottish-Northern Irish federation, or to try to persuade the English to keep up the pretence that there is still a UK. Its going to be very interesting times ahead.

I don’t think Scotland leaving the UK will have any effect on the timing of NI leaving. That is still decades away from happening, if ever.

A possibly worry might be that in the nationalist euphoria that follows Scotland’s exit, if they do leave, it might induce a similar urge in Wales, leaving a UK of England and NI!

Now, NI would not leave, but England might! And that would leave NI all alone and unloved and with an immediate and serious budget problem.

Happily there are enough ifs in this scenario to make it a tad implausible.

Amtmann

celtictiger32 wrote: »

be interested to see that if you come across it.

Here it is: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/194791/0052321.pdf

maggy_thatcher

lugha wrote: »

Now, NI would not leave, but England might! And that would leave NI all alone and unloved and with an immediate and serious budget problem.

If it happened in that order, though, it would mean that control of the British WMDs would be handed over to the Northern Irish (as they are owned by the UK, and NI would be the only 'state' left in the UK)...I'm really not sure that would be a nice option!

FTA69

Senior members of successive British governments both current and past are on record as stating their wish to keep both Scotland and Ireland within the UK and outlining the key strategic and economic importance of the UK as an entity. The notion they're simply dying to exit the north of Ireland doesn't hold up considering they spent 25 years fighting to remain here, sponsoring the murder of their own citizens while doing so. The notion of them having a different attitude to Scotland is equally as ludicrous.

ardmacha

If it happened in that order, though, it would mean that control of the British WMDs would be handed over to the Northern Irish (as they are owned by the UK, and NI would be the only 'state' left in the UK)...I'm really not sure that would be a nice option!

They could sell them to England and solve the budget problem.
Unionists are on record many times stating that they would welcome the 26 counties rejoining the UK. If the UK only comprised NI then perhaps this could be the way forward.

maggy_thatcher

ardmacha wrote: »

They could sell them to England and solve the budget problem.

No they couldn't. The UK is one of the "exempt - allowed to hold WMD" states. The newly created country 'England' isn't. It would be against international law for a 'Nuclear Weapon State' to sell their weapons to a 'non-Nuclear Weapon State'.

A Dub in Glasgo

United Kingdom of Ireland

who the fug

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

United Kingdom of Ireland

United Kingdom of Cork & Ireland sounds better

Batsy

ardmacha wrote: »

They could sell them to England and solve the budget problem.
Unionists are on record many times stating that they would welcome the 26 counties rejoining the UK. If the UK only comprised NI then perhaps this could be the way forward.

If the UK comprised only Northern Ireland then it wouldn't be the UK. It would be Northern Ireland.

Batsy

realies wrote: »

[QUOTE Batsy
Jamaica cannot sever ties with the British monarchy because the British monarchy doesn't rule Jamaica. The Jamaican monarchy rules Jamaica, and it is a completely different institution to the British monarchy. Jamaica becoming a republic would therefore be nothing to do with Britain.

Jamaica is a parliamentary democracy and constitutional monarchy with the monarch being represented by a Governor-General. The head of state is Queen Elizabeth II, who officially uses the title "Queen of Jamaica" when she visits the country or performs duties overseas on Jamaica's behalf.The new government intended to abandon the British monarch as Jamaica's official head of state and instead adopt a republican form of government. Jamaica declared independence from Britain in 1962 but remains within the Commonwealth and has the Queen as head of state.

Queen Elizabeth II may be Jamaica's Head of State but the British monarchy does not rule Jamaica. The Jamaican Monarchy does. That's why, to the Jamaicans, Queen Elizabeth II is the Queen of Jamaica, not the Queen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Elizabeth the Second, by the Grace of God, Queen of Jamaica and of Her other Realms and Territories, Head of the Commonwealth. The Jamaican Monarchy is completely separate and independent of the British Monarchy and represented by it own unique symbols but just happens to have the same woman heading it. On all matters of the Jamaican state, the monarch is advised solely by Jamaican Ministers of the Crown and, effective with the Jamaica Independence Act, 1962, no British or other realm government can advise the monarch on matters pertinent to Jamaica. All of this is also true of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Bermuda, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu and the other realms of which Elizabeth II is Head of State. They are all ruled by their own monarchies, not the British one.

I'll repeat: Jamaica becoming a republic has nothing to do with Britain. Jamaica will be ditching the Jamaican Monarchy, not the British Monarchy. It has nothing to do with us.

Batsy

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Anyone have an updated one of these maps? the only info I have is from a few years ago showing the following

How convenient to divide England into regions when looking at spending per capita but leave Scotland as a whole nation.

When I mentioned spending per capita I was referring to the whole of England as compared to the whole of Scotland. You know, one nation versus another. Not one part of one nation versus the whole of another.

And, at the end of the day, the Scots receive more spending per capita than the English and this has been known about for some time.

A Dub in Glasgo

Batsy wrote: »

How convenient to divide England into regions when looking at spending per capita but leave Scotland as a whole nation.

When I mentioned spending per capita I was referring to the whole of England as compared to the whole of Scotland. You know, one nation versus another. Not one part of one nation versus the whole of another.

And, at the end of the day, the Scots receive more spending per capita than the English and this has been known about for some time.

Inconvienent for your stance more like. Scotland has a population of 5.2m with a density of 65.9/km2, England has a population of 51.4m with a density of 395/km2. Scotland will always have a higher spend per capita due to geography.

Anyhow, do you have the latest per capita tax take like the one in the map?

A Dub in Glasgo

Batsy wrote: »

I'll repeat: Jamaica becoming a republic has nothing to do with Britain. Jamaica will be ditching the Jamaican Monarchy, not the British Monarchy. It has nothing to do with us.

This is Monty Pyphonesque!

Batsy

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Inconvienent for your stance more like. Scotland has a population of 5.2m with a density of 65.9/km2, England has a population of 51.4m with a density of 395/km2. Scotland will always have a higher spend per capita due to geography.

Absolute codswallop. Scotland receives more public money per head than England due to the Barnett Formula, and even the guy who invented it, Joel Barnett, has said that it is unfair on the English.

The now Lord Barnett told peers his formula was based on population, and gave around 80% of UK spending to England, 10% to Scotland and 5% to both Wales and Northern Ireland.

But it should be based on need rather than population – and the result was “gross unfairness”.

Scotland got substantially more than it would on the basis of need, allowing its leader Alex Salmond, who Lord Barnett called "a very shrewd political operator" to use the extra cash on university fees and tuition prescription charges.

He said an independent commission should be set up to come up with a new solution, and if ministers said the priority was to reduce the deficit, it could be done in 2015.

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/2011/06/17/joel-barnett-my-formula-s-grossly-unfair-55578-28892799/

Anyhow, do you have the latest per capita tax take like the one in the map?

Scotland (and also Wales and Northern Ireland) also is also treated more favourably than England when it comes to tax, especially council tax, again due to the unfair Barnett Formula:

English councils are concerned that Scottish local authorities are benefiting from what they say are the generous terms of the Barnett formula. The formula sets how much Scotland can receive every year from the Treasury for public spending.


In a letter to today’s Daily Telegraph, Sir Merrick Cockell, chairman of the Local Government Association, criticises the formula as “grossly unfair, divisive, and outdated”.


Research which will be presented to the LGA's board next week shows that if the formula was reformed it would if see an additional £2.6billion diverted to help English councils.


One LGA source said: “If Scotland was funded on a fair basis, we would have the money we need to plug the current adult social care funding gap.”

In the Telegraph letter, Sir Merrick Cockell, attacks the “unfairness and plain illogicality” of the formula. He says: “The formula was just an over-simplistic way of settling the devolved countries’ budgets with a minimum of interdepartmental negotiation and fuss.


"But now its unfairness and plain illogicality mean it is time to move on.

Unlike every other part of the public sector, the Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish governments get their money automatically.”

Sir Merrick complains that “whenever an English department gets a change to its budget, the other countries of the Union get an automatic share, with no questions asked".

He is particularly incensed that when the Coalition froze council tax for English councils, an extra £67.5million was given to Scotland, even though its government had already announced a freeze

He adds: “Therefore Scotland got extra money this year because English councils were being paid to freeze their council tax – even though Scotland already had a council tax freeze.”

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/8998742/Council-taxpayers-in-England-losing-out-on-2.6billion-in-services-because-of-Scottish-funding-formula.html

A Dub in Glasgo

Scotland more or less pays her way and no amount of foaming at the mouth will change that.

The Scottish Government has chosen to spend in a different way on devolved matters than the UK Government on equivalent matters in England.

djrichard

This is becoming quite the issue. My facebook newsfeed is full of Scottish independance propaganda and debate.

This is what one of my friends has as their status today.

"From the 1950 onwards, anti-English sentiment was promoted in Catholic Churches, schools and families in Scotland. Later it was spread via Unions and eventually the TA (Territorial Army) and from then on seeped into the so-called Protestant classes. This is important, as it shows that for decades, Scots have been subjected to social engineering to put them in the correct mindset for separation from the rest of the UK. Led by the nose to their own demise. This had to happen; a strong Britain would be far too powerful to fit under the EU commission governance which in turn comes under the One World Government via the UN and Agenda 21. All National power must dissipate; a strong Nation is a threat to Global government."

Discuss.

A Dub in Glasgo

How can you discuss such bull**** though

djrichard

KEEP SCOTLAND TIDY, LEAVE YOUR RUBBISH IN ENGLAND!

I remember seeing stickers like this all over the place.

Fratton Fred

djrichard wrote: »

KEEP SCOTLAND TIDY, LEAVE YOUR RUBBISH IN ENGLAND!

I remember seeing stickers like this all over the place.

That's mild to be honest.

Scottish Watch and Settler Watch actively harrass English people in Scotland with the former also harassing Scottish people who dare sell their homes to English people.

Then you have the numerous assaults on English people in Scotland, with the tragic murder of a 19 year old in Edinburgh a few years ago because he sounded English.

Then of course you have the hilarious anyone but England brigade, headed up by Andy Murray. And for some reason he can't work out why he isn't as popular as Tim Henman.....

djrichard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Then of course you have the hilarious anyone but England brigade, headed up by Andy Murray. And for some reason he can't work out why he isn't as popular as Tim Henman.....

Andy Murray made a joke with that comment, tongue in cheek remark, which, as usual was blown right out of proportion and pounced on as a way to vent anger when England got put out of the cup.

Anyone that saw that interview, would know that themselves. Andy Murray is bored of all that rubbish, and he even took to stop wearing his saltire armband to make people realise that he doesnt hate the English at all. If some small minded, generally jealous, individuals want to keep bringing that up, then so be it. I think its Andy who will be laughing all the way to the bank with the earnings he has made so far!

Cú Giobach

Batsy, you have issues with The West Lothian Question, England financially subsidising Scotland and have been critical about a "Scottish Mafia" powering the commons.
Why on earth wouldn't you like to see the place go for independence then?

hatrickpatrick

woodoo wrote: »

Democracy is only good sometimes to Kieth.

You mean like when the majority of the people agree with what the establishment wants, a la Lisbon? :rolleyes:

ardmacha

Absolute codswallop. Scotland receives more public money per head than England due to the Barnett Formula, and even the guy who invented it, Joel Barnett, has said that it is unfair on the English.

It is unfair on people in the north of England. The UK is based on policies which promote the City of London and the South East generally, this reduces economic activity elsewhere which then require subsidy. The north of England get the economic policies but not the political clout to ensure compensatory flows.

Scottish Watch and Settler Watch actively harrass English people in Scotland with the former also harassing Scottish people who dare sell their homes to English people.

Then you have the numerous assaults on English people in Scotland, with the tragic murder of a 19 year old in Edinburgh a few years ago because he sounded English.

Quite the opposite of the northern part of this country then, where the settlers harass Irish people and those would sell property to them and beat people to within an inch of their life.

djrichard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

That's mild to be honest.

Scottish Watch and Settler Watch actively harrass English people in Scotland with the former also harassing Scottish people who dare sell their homes to English people.

So youre talking about some tiny little group that has in no way represents virtually every single person living in Scotland? Id never even heard of them before until you mentioned it, a quick Google later and Ive read several articles about them. I think you would be very very very hard pushed to walk down any random street in Scotland and knock on every door to find an English person who had been actively harrassed whilst purchasing their home, or a Scottish person who was harrassed by selling their home to any race, let alone the English.

People like this are called extremists for a reason, because they are extreme in everything they do. They do not represent the people.

I find it almost comical the entire concept of someone harrassing me because Id dare to sell my home to an English person, I mean, how would anyone even know who was buying my house in the first place? If someone somehow did, Id tell them to F*#K OFF, physically remove them from my property and carry on regardless. Are you sure youve ever been to Scotland? These kind of things dont happen.

Yeah of course there will be incidents where people have been attacked for being English or whatever, but Id imagine that the perpetrators of those crimes were most likely out looking to start a fight with someone for almost any reason, the fact they spoke and turned out to be English would have given an idiot like that all the excuse they feel they needed to justify their actions. Much in the same way that a victim might be ethnic or gay or somehow stood out from the crowd. The idea that Scots are wandering around hunting down the English is beyond ridiculous!

Judgement Day

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

How can you discuss such bull**** though

I don't think that it can altogether be dismissed as bull though. As I said in a previous post the only people that will benefit from the demise of the UK are its enemies. Think how much easier the Nazis might have found Britain to invade had Scotland (or Wales) been independent in 1939.

Fratton Fred

djrichard wrote: »

So youre talking about some tiny little group that has in no way represents virtually every single person living in Scotland? Id never even heard of them before until you mentioned it, a quick Google later and Ive read several articles about them. I think you would be very very very hard pushed to walk down any random street in Scotland and knock on every door to find an English person who had been actively harrassed whilst purchasing their home, or a Scottish person who was harrassed by selling their home to any race, let alone the English.

People like this are called extremists for a reason, because they are extreme in everything they do. They do not represent the people.

I find it almost comical the entire concept of someone harrassing me because Id dare to sell my home to an English person, I mean, how would anyone even know who was buying my house in the first place? If someone somehow did, Id tell them to F*#K OFF, physically remove them from my property and carry on regardless. Are you sure youve ever been to Scotland? These kind of things dont happen.

Yeah of course there will be incidents where people have been attacked for being English or whatever, but Id imagine that the perpetrators of those crimes were most likely out looking to start a fight with someone for almost any reason, the fact they spoke and turned out to be English would have given an idiot like that all the excuse they feel they needed to justify their actions. Much in the same way that a victim might be ethnic or gay or somehow stood out from the crowd. The idea that Scots are wandering around hunting down the English is beyond ridiculous!

How many more examples do you want? The girl in Aberdeen punched because someone overheard her accent? The child slapped and his father beaten up because the child wanted to wear his England shirt?

These aren't isolated incidents, they are all part of Scotland's anti all things English agenda.

djrichard

Fratton Fred wrote: »

How many more examples do you want? The girl in Aberdeen punched because someone overheard her accent? The child slapped and his father beaten up because the child wanted to wear his England shirt?

These aren't isolated incidents, they are all part of Scotland's anti all things English agenda.

I bet you could have a search and find similar examples of these actions taken in every country. When I lived in Spain for 4 years, I used to get stopped by the police driving either my car, my motorbike or whilst working. They had a terrible attitude towards me, when they were taking down my details they would write in the nationality section "Ingles" at which point I would ALWAYS make sure they understood me when I said "NO! NO! NO! No Ingles, Escocés" at which point they would ALL (Im talking about nearly 300 hundred police officers) suddenly look differently at me and say "you are Scottish?" and Id say "si si si!". They were then much nicer, sometimes not even giving me a ticket. They would say they would love to visit Scotland and that the people were much nicer than the English who they found to be very arrogant. More often than not many would exclaim witrh a big grin "aaaah William Wallace" at which point I would shout "Freeeeeedom". Ah the things you do to get out of trouble! hahaha

By the way, Ive been told many many times by workmates never ever to wear my Rangers football top around Dublin because Im likely to get my head kicked in, or refused service in many places. I could hardly believe it, it made me want to wear it out of protest and to see if that was actually true. Not the head kicking in part, the part about being served in places. Fortunately Im not the type to go around wearing football tops, I just happen to have the strip because I play football and also I might wear it in the house if the game is on. Ive actually not been out to watch an old-firm match in Dublin in the pubs due to the fact I cant be bothered getting myself involved with idiots simply because I happen to support a Scottish football team and some Irish lads, who apparently dont have a good enough football league to support of their own, may want to give me some stick. This topic, is for another thread, and not really for me, I hate all that sectarian garbage. I only bring it up because you specifically mentioned the wearing of football colours.

Actually, I remember one night in Tenerife, just after England got put out of Euro 2008 ( I think it was then), I was standing talking to this blonde girl from Brighton, some English lout who was pissed tried to actually start a fight with me calling me a "Scottish c#$t" and all the rest. Thankfully his mates were not quite so drunk and dragged him away, apologising to me for his behaviour, but it just shows its not one sided.

Dr Galen

Keep it OT people

We are at risk at veering significantly. I suggest everyone takes some time to THINK about what they are going to post, and if it adds anything to the thread in terms of quality

Cheers

DrG

PS @djrichard

What happened the blonde girl??

djrichard

Dr Galen wrote: »

Keep it OT people

We are at risk at veering significantly. I suggest everyone takes some time to THINK about what they are going to post, and if it adds anything to the thread in terms of quality

Cheers

DrG

PS @djrichard

What happened the blonde girl??

At the risk of ignoring the entire point of your post.....All I can say is that I have that Englishman to thank for helping me close that one. I was just searching for a photo of her on facebook, but Ive so many photos and I cant find it. I remember her saying something like "Dont worry Richard, we are not all like that!" and with that her hand was taken and she was led to the waiting taxi!

Dr Galen

djrichard wrote: »

At the risk of ignoring the entire point of your post.....All I can say is that I have that Englishman to thank for helping me close that one. I was just searching for a photo of her on facebook, but Ive so many photos and I cant find it. I remember her saying something like "Dont worry Richard, we are not all like that!" and with that her hand was taken and she was led to the waiting taxi!

Good Man

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