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You can't quit UK without my approval, David Cameron warns Scots

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    #62
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    KeithAFC wrote: »
    We should leave Ulster out of the discussion.

    Hey, stop trying to steal the remaining 3 counties. Northern Ireland surely? ;)

    Regarding the vote, I very much doubt that Cameron would be able to stop it. Scotland would get international recognition anyway easdily enough I imagine. It will be up to the people of Scotland and not those in London


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    #63
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    The thing is though, not once has it been stated that Cameron is trying to stop a referendum, he is just setting the rules for one!


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    #64
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Batsy wrote: »
    In 1468 Shetland was pledged by Christian I, in his capacity as King of Norway, as security against the payment of the dowry of his daughter Margaret, betrothed to James III of Scotland. The money was never paid, the connection with the crown of Scotland has become perpetual. However, the Shetlands still have a strong connection with Norway.

    So Norway gave them away, to Scotland, and have not come screaming for them? Seems that they are Scottish to me


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    #65
    maggy_thatcher
    Registered Users Posts: 1,056 ✭✭✭maggy_thatcher


    grizzly wrote: »
    I've heard that Camerons father-in-law is the third largest landowner in Scotland. If they got independence it's likely that such land would be nationalised (it's currently held by royal title). This may play some part of his personal interests in the question of its status.

    Self-rule and becoming a republic are two separate things - just take a look at Australia, New Zealand, Canada, etc. Does this plan for independence include withdrawing from having the Queen the head of state?


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    #66
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    The thing is though, not once has it been stated that Cameron is trying to stop a referendum, he is just setting the rules for one!

    indeed but it will be jumped upon as Cameron interfeering in an internal Scotish matter. Which it essentially is. As much as they are part of the Union, it will be a debate/referendum internally that will decide it.


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    #67
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    grizzly wrote: »
    I've heard that Camerons father-in-law is the third largest landowner in Scotland. If they got independence it's likely that such land would be nationalised (it's currently held by royal title). This may play some part of his personal interests in the question of its status.


    The SNP aren't republicans, they would keep the monarchy. I can't see why he would lose his land (if he does indeed have any, he owns half of Yorkshire so who knows).


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    #68
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    So Norway gave them away, to Scotland, and have not come screaming for them? Seems that they are Scottish to me

    There is a desire for at least a degree of autonomy and at most independence as per the Faroes.

    They were not part of Scotland until the 15th century, so if it is only fair Scotland gets independence, it is only fair the Shetlands gets it as well.


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    #69
    norrie rugger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,656 ✭✭✭norrie rugger


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    There is a desire for at least a degree of autonomy and at most independence as per the Faroes.

    They were not part of Scotland until the 15th century, so if it is only fair Scotland gets independence, it is only fair the Shetlands gets it as well.

    Well they should really stay as part of Scotland or go back to Norway?
    The Norweigans gave up their claim to the islands and gave those islands to the Scots. Bit different from an agressor holding onto them


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    #70
    who the fug
    Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    norrie rugger wrote: »
    Well they should really stay as part of Scotland or go back to Norway?
    The Norweigans gave up their claim to the islands and gave those islands to the Scots. Bit different from an agressor holding onto them

    Or they could ask to be independent ?


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    #71
    who the fug
    Registered Users Posts: 4,041 ✭✭✭who the fug


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    If that's the case then the UK is probably being held together against the wishes of the majority of its people, that's not very democratic.

    The wishes of the majority is for the situation to stay as it is, but people in England are fed up with the constant whinging and their perception that Scotland and NI are drain on England

    Scotland will not be leaving without taking its share of the National Debt


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    #72
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Batsy wrote: »
    David Cameron is the Prime Minister of Scotland.

    I'm sure David Cameron's one whole MP in Scotland is a clear indicator of his mandate there. The Scottish people rejected him, and his party. Alex Salmond has far more of a mandate there.


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    #73
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    who the fug wrote: »
    The wishes of the majority is for the situation to stay as it is, but people in England are fed up with the constant whinging and their perception that Scotland and NI are drain on England
    Both yourself and Fred have just said a majority in England would like to leave, depending on the gap between pro/anti union this could very well mean a majority of the UK population as a whole.
    Here's an article in today's Telegraph. Britain wants UK break up, poll shows.
    Scotland will not be leaving without taking its share of the National Debt
    I wouldn't think the Scots would run from their responsibilities.


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    #74
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Interesting quote from David Cameron in that Tepegraph piece,

    Mr Cameron said: "The union between England, Scotland and Wales is good for us all and we are stronger together than we are apart".

    I notice he left Northern Ireland out of it. Does he not value NI's place within the UK?

    Thye next 50 years is going to see some big changes for the UK i think.


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    #75
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Both yourself and Fred have just said a majority in England would like to leave, depending on the gap between pro/anti union this could very well mean a majority of the UK population as a whole.
    Here's an article in today's Telegraph. Britain wants UK break up, poll shows.

    On a day to day basis, I think the majority of the population of the UK are overwhelmingly ambivalent to the whole thing to be honest.

    When a poll comes along people will say one thing or another based on an aspiration, or even a principle , but the majority of people would look at what we have now, what we would have after a break up and just decide that the whole thing is just too much hassle.


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    #76
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    On a day to day basis, I think the majority of the population of the UK are overwhelmingly ambivalent to the whole thing to be honest.

    When a poll comes along people will say one thing or another based on an aspiration, or even a principle , but the majority of people would look at what we have now, what we would have after a break up and just decide that the whole thing is just too much hassle.
    Fred, you either think there is a majority in England for independence or not, or you just don't know, you can't one minute say one thing, and then change that because you are made aware your original opinion would be music to the ears of those in The SNP, Sinn Féin or Plaid Cymru.


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    #77
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    And Tony Blair (and the rest of the labour party) are no longer in power. The government of the UK has changed, so the Iraq war is irrelevant.

    And that makes everything all hunky dory?

    I'll answer: it certainly doesn't.

    Especially not to the families of soldiers and Iraqis who were maimed and killed on a lie.


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    #78
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Fred, you either think there is a majority in England for independence or not, or you just don't know, you can't one minute say one thing, and then change that because you are made aware your original opinion would be music to the ears of those in The SNP, Sinn Féin or Plaid Cymru.

    If you asked every person in the UK, consequence free, if they wanted the UK to break up, there would be a yes vote.

    If you took that to an actual referendum, there would be a no vote. (And this imho, is what would happen in Scotland if a referendum were held tomorrow).

    However, if you asked everyone in the uk would you like to have the fate of the UK decided by referendum, or have a free bar of chocolate, chocolate would win hands down.

    Edit: and no, I don't think this is music to the ears of SF and the SNP (and to a lesser extent Plaid Cymru) because if and when this question ever gets answered, they will become irrelevant.

    I know Scots that think Alek Salmond is the biggest barrier to independence and although the SNP are ok in Stormont, no one wants them to actually govern a country.


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    #79
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    If you asked every person in the UK, consequence free, if they wanted the UK to break up, there would be a yes vote.

    If you took that to an actual referendum, there would be a no vote. (And this imho, is what would happen in Scotland if a referendum were held tomorrow).

    However, if you asked everyone in the uk would you like to have the fate of the UK decided by referendum, or have a free bar of chocolate, chocolate would win hands down.
    So what did you mean by this?
    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Has someone said the English can't or shouldn't have such a referendum if they so wish?
    I think anybody who would like to see the Scots or Welsh go their own way would also be in favour of the same for England.
    No one dare ask the English because they know what the answer would be.
    Don't forget, your above quote was about a referendum, not just an idle question to the people.

    Seems like a bit of a turnaround there.


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    #80
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Edit: and no, I don't think this is music to the ears of SF and the SNP (and to a lesser extent Plaid Cymru) because if and when this question ever gets answered, they will become irrelevant.
    That is very amusing, SF, The SNP or PC not happy to see a call for English independence.
    Do you actually think these parties don't really want independence (or in the case of SF a UI) for their respective countries?


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    #81
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Cú Giobach wrote: »
    Don't forget, your above quote was about a referendum, not just an idle question to the people..

    Not a turn around, just some substance to an earlier throw away comment.


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    #82
    Cú Giobach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,772 ✭✭✭Cú Giobach


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    Not a turn around, just some substance to an earlier throw away comment.
    Ahh I see.
    I'll just assume then that your thanks to who the fug for the comment "Pretty fair odds of it being passed" was only a slip of the mouse, since you don't think there actually is. ;)


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    #83
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    If a referendum is held, it should be made quite clear to the Scots that they will be voting for the removal of all British bases there, the introduction of border controls and the barring of Scottish passport holders from holding political office in England. Interestingly, David Cameron has strong Scottish family links http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Cameron and his future as PM would be in doubt - if I were in charge of things. For good measure I would also reinsert the missing verse of the British National Anthem.

    Lord, grant that Marshal Wade,
    May by thy mighty aid,
    Victory bring.
    May he sedition hush,
    and like a torrent rush,
    Rebellious Scots to crush,
    God save the Queen

    PS By the time England cuts off its subsidies to the disloyal Scots and the overly loyal NI Unionists it will be considerably better off. :D


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    #84
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    Next they'll be announcing the reconstruction of Hadrian's Wall, except a lot more fortified.


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    #85
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    Killer Pigeon wrote: »
    Next they'll be announcing the reconstruction of Hadrian's Wall expect a lot more fortified.

    Excellent idea - this time with minefields and watch towers. :D


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    #86
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    PS By the time England cuts off its subsidies to the disloyal Scots and the overly loyal NI Unionists it will be considerably better off. :D

    Disloyal to who, exactly?

    And, you might want to tell former Scottish Tory Party leader that Scotland is being subsidised by England, because she doesn't agree: http://www.journal-online.co.uk/article/7992-scotland-not-subsidised-by-rest-of-uk-says-annabel-goldie


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    #87
    Killer Pigeon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Excellent idea - this time with minefields and watch towers. :D

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyI1DQ1Q3ic


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    #88
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    dlofnep wrote: »
    Disloyal to who, exactly?

    And, you might want to tell former Scottish Tory Party leader that Scotland is being subsidised by England, because she doesn't agree: http://www.journal-online.co.uk/article/7992-scotland-not-subsidised-by-rest-of-uk-says-annabel-goldie

    The Crown, the Union - take your pick. Rats leaving what they incorrectly see as a sinking ship. They've been watching Braveheart too often. The only ones who will gain from the break-up of the UK are its enemies.


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    #89
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    The Crown, the Union - take your pick. Rats leaving what they incorrectly see as a sinking ship. They've been watching Braveheart too often. The only ones who will gain from the break-up of the UK are its enemies.

    I'm sure the Scottish people wouldn't appreciate you referring to them as 'rats' for aspiring to have the perfectly legitimate status as an independent country. Still - If all you have to offer to the debate is ad hominem attacks on them, I'm sure they will be better off without you.

    Moreover - it isn't about jumping from a 'sinking ship' - It's about being able to control your own affairs completely.


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    #90
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    dlofnep wrote: »
    I'm sure the Scottish people wouldn't appreciate you referring to them as 'rats' for aspiring to have the perfectly legitimate status as an independent country. Still - If all you have to offer to the debate is ad hominem attacks on them, I'm sure they will be better off without you.

    Moreover - it isn't about jumping from a 'sinking ship' - It's about being able to control your own affairs completely.

    Funny old thing how Irish nationalists support a number of independent states on one island while insisting on a single unitary state on this one. :rolleyes:


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    #91
    dlofnep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,759 ✭✭✭✭dlofnep


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Funny old thing how Irish nationalists support a number of independent states on one island while insisting on a single unitary state on this one. :rolleyes:

    Not really, considering Ireland is a single nation - much like Scotland is a single nation. The partition of Ireland was an unjust move, against the wishes of the majority of the population of Ireland. (And not some, undemocratic union of nations)

    If the Scottish people decide on becoming independent - it will be with the blessing of the Scottish people, and according to public opinion polls - with the blessing of the English too.

    If Scotland was partitioned after they received independence, it would be morally justified to seek to reunification of Scotland. Or if in the unlikely scenario that Scotland absorbed one or two northern English counties, it would be perfectly justified for England to seek reunification of England.

    You can save your rolling eyes by the way, for someone who's willing to listen to your bigoted rants.


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