You can't quit UK without my approval, David Cameron warns Scots

Cú Giobach

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

No - encourage. They have a choice - join the EU, or don't get free trade between the rest of the EU - seems fair to me.

Seems like spite to me.
Do you have a problem with Norway, Iceland or Switzerland not being in the EU?

LordSutch

Nodin wrote: »

He's the elected leader of the scottish parliament.....

The ramifications of a UK breakup are far too serious & far reaching as to be dictated by the likes of Alex Salmond and his dream of a break-away Scotland, Cameron is dead right to force Salmonds hand, the referendum should be called sooner rather than later b4 anymore damage is done.

maggy_thatcher

Cú Giobach wrote: »

Seems like spite to me.
Do you have a problem with Norway, Iceland or Switzerland not being in the EU?

I'd prefer they were members, yes...though having said that, the big drawback that they have that EU members don't is that they have no say in how the laws are drafted, yet, with the exception of a few areas, are obliged to adapt their laws to comply. In some ways, they are even less independent than EU members - at least EU members have a vote!

With the current economic climate, however, I believe that you should be either in an organization, or out of it, and there should be an incentive to be inside (and free-trade agreements seem like the best option).

dublinscot

LordSutch wrote: »

The ramifications of a UK breakup are far too serious & far reaching as to be dictated by the likes of Alex Salmond and his dream of a break-away Scotland

The Scottish people are sovereign, and can decide to end this 'marriage' anytime they wish.

Cú Giobach

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

I'd prefer they were members, yes...though having said that, the big drawback that they have that EU members don't is that they have no say in how the laws are drafted, yet, with the exception of a few areas, are obliged to adapt their laws to comply. In some ways, they are even less independent than EU members - at least EU members have a vote!

With the current economic climate, however, I believe that you should be either in an organization, or out of it, and there should be an incentive to be inside (and free-trade agreements seem like the best option).

You say incentive to be inside I say penalty for being outside (which is what actively blocking is closer to), we wont get anywhere with this line.
Free trade between neighbouring countries is quite important and shouldn't be dependent on a country being part of a union such as the EU if the people of that country don't wish it.

Fratton Fred

dublinscot wrote: »

No, you're forgetting that RBS is effectively a British bank. And since the vast majority of RBS customers are English, an agreement would have been reached between the Scottish and RumpUK governments. This is what happened with Fortis bank in the Benelux.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7641132.stm


I imagine Scottish defence spending would become more in line with similar sized nations, which would likely involve base closures as you say. The cost of this would be offset by the savings made on Trident and illegal foreign adventures however.


Scottish soldiers will still have the option to join the British army, like all other commonwealth countries. Though i would expect the Scottish Defence Forces to be made up of the bulk of the current Scottish regiments.

Why didn't the Irish government help with the bailout of RBS then?

You have very nicely dodged all the points. If Scottish defence spending was on a par with, for example, Irelands, there would be a lot of unemployed people in Scotland after the closure of Luechars, Lossiemouth and HMNB Clyde, no? There would also be less inclination for the English government to continue using Fasslane, no?

I agree, the Scottish Regiments would form the backbone of the Scottish army, but would it really require all seven battalions? I agree, a lot will still join the English army, but the model of "If we can't find jobs for you, you can always go to England" isn't exactly a prefect recipe for happy independence.

maggy_thatcher

Cú Giobach wrote: »

You say incentive to be inside I say penalty for being outside (which is what actively blocking is closer to), we wont get anywhere with this line.
Free trade between neighbouring countries is quite important and shouldn't be dependent on a country being part of a union such as the EU if the people of that country don't wish it.

But what incentive is there for the EU to want to fully open its borders to a fledgling Scottish state, without fully reciprocating by joining the EU?

TheSpecialOne

Scotland has one huge Advantage as they currently hold Nuclear Submarines in the Deep Waters at Clyde. Cameron can demand Oil Revenue etc..but the Nuclear option could force him to be somewhat kinder to Scotland that his current rhetoric would suggest.

celtictiger32

fair play to mr salmond for pushing this issue i hope scotland get their referendum and gain their independance soon, in fact why not hold all 3 referendums on the same date (ireland, scotland and wales) wouldnt that be interesting. without getting off topic the referendum for a UI is long overdue so hopefully this will push metters in the right direction

TheSpecialOne

celtictiger32 wrote: »

fair play to mr salmond for pushing this issue i hope scotland get their referendum and gain their independance soon, in fact why not hold all 3 referendums on the same date (ireland, scotland and wales) wouldnt that be interesting. without getting off topic the referendum for a UI is long overdue so hopefully this will push metters in the right direction

Please we have enough Economic problems and wasteful Public Sector without adding the North which is basically a Country filled with Public Sector workers. Economically a UI at the current time would be a disaster.

who the fug

TheSpecialOne wrote: »

Scotland has one huge Advantage as they currently hold Nuclear Submarines in the Deep Waters at Clyde. Cameron can demand Oil Revenue etc..but the Nuclear option could force him to be somewhat kinder to Scotland that his current rhetoric would suggest.

Subs answer to London, Not Edinburgh.


Also there be an not enough ships to keep Portsmouth and Plymouth going, so they will be the first things to move .

dublinscot

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Why didn't the Irish government help with the bailout of RBS then?

How many Irish citizens would have lost all of their deposits if RBS had collapsed? Not enough for the Irish government to get involved in a bailout anyway.

See Fortis bank for an example of how an independent Scotland and England would have handled RBS.

You have very nicely dodged all the points. If Scottish defence spending was on a par with, for example, Irelands, there would be a lot of unemployed people in Scotland after the closure of Luechars, Lossiemouth and HMNB Clyde, no?

Yes, as i said it would likely lead to base closures. That's the price of removing WMD from our country.

There would also be less inclination for the English government to continue using Fasslane, no?

Probably. I omitted that part of your quote as i didn't know what you were refering to re 'Babcock'.

I agree, the Scottish Regiments would form the backbone of the Scottish army, but would it really require all seven battalions? I agree, a lot will still join the English army, but the model of "If we can't find jobs for you, you can always go to England" isn't exactly a prefect recipe for happy independence.

I imagine, over time, troop numbers would come into line with similar sized European nations. A managed reduction of defence numbers and spending sounds good to me.

maggy_thatcher

celtictiger32 wrote: »

fair play to mr salmond for pushing this issue i hope scotland get their referendum and gain their independance soon, in fact why not hold all 3 referendums on the same date (ireland, scotland and wales) wouldnt that be interesting. without getting off topic the referendum for a UI is long overdue so hopefully this will push metters in the right direction

Why not 4? England has as much of a right to strive for independence as NI, Wales or Scotland (some, particularly Daily Mail readers, might say it deserves independence *from* NI, Wales and Scotland!). In fact, it's the only part of the UK that doesn't have its own devolved government - the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish (at least the ones who bother to show up) MPs all have a say on the internal running of England, but the English have no control of what happens in the Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish parliaments...

TheSpecialOne

who the fug wrote: »

Subs answer to London, Not Edinburgh.


Also there be an not enough ships to keep Portsmouth and Plymouth going, so they will be the first things to move .

But if Scotland gain independence they can easily say clear off to the UK's Fleet, Thus meaning the deep water Nuclear Subs have nowhere to go.

Sunnyisland

Not being a drama queen ,just wondering How deep is the hatred/divide between Scottish Unionists and Scottish nationalists ? Is there any chance of violence or even a civil war breaking out there ?


On another note Jamaica's new prime minister, Portia Simpson-Miller, has pledged to make the nation a republic, thereby severing ties to Great Britain and the English monarchy.

Not a great start to the new year for the UK.

irishgeo

does the queen have a say at all?

dublinscot

TheSpecialOne wrote: »

But if Scotland gain independence they can easily say clear off to the UK's Fleet, Thus meaning the deep water Nuclear Subs have nowhere to go.

When the Soviet Union broke up, many of the nuclear bases were in Ukraine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Ukraine

I'm sure a similar agreement will be reached between independent Scottish and English governments.




Although maybe we should keep a nuke.... just in case like!

who the fug

TheSpecialOne wrote: »

But if Scotland gain independence they can easily say clear off to the UK's Fleet, Thus meaning the deep water Nuclear Subs have nowhere to go.

Portsmouth, Plymouth, Falmouth

Plenty of places for them to go

dublinscot

realies wrote: »

Is there any chance of violence or even a civil war breaking out there ?

No

celtictiger32

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

Why not 4? England has as much of a right to strive for independence as NI, Wales or Scotland (some, particularly Daily Mail readers, might say it deserves independence *from* NI, Wales and Scotland!). In fact, it's the only part of the UK that doesn't have its own devolved government - the Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish (at least the ones who bother to show up) MPs all have a say on the internal running of England, but the English have no control of what happens in the Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish parliaments...

i wouldnt see a big problem with that, wasnt particularly leaving them out as such was just assuming if the rest got their independance wouldnt that make england independant also...

Mr.Micro

LordSutch wrote: »

The ramifications of a UK breakup are far too serious & far reaching as to be dictated by the likes of Alex Salmond and his dream of a break-away Scotland, Cameron is dead right to force Salmonds hand, the referendum should be called sooner rather than later b4 anymore damage is done.

You mean they are actually going to have a referendum? Cameron and his like are abhorrent of such things, allowing the ordinary people a say. Whatever next?

promethius42

Isn't there a nice big patch of oil that would become Scotlands if they were to gain independence?

I wonder how long it would last until the UK/USA invade citing haggis of mass destruction as a reason.

maggy_thatcher

Mr.Micro wrote: »

You mean they are actually going to have a referendum? Cameron and his like are abhorrent of such things, allowing the ordinary people a say. Whatever next?

Yeah - they hate them - that's why they didn't have a binding referendum on AV last year...oh wait, they did!

Fratton Fred

dublinscot wrote: »

The Scottish people are sovereign, and can decide to end this 'marriage' anytime they wish.

I don't think anyone would argue against that, it is merely the terms of the divorce that need to be sorted out.

If you want to leave, fine, but if you are looking to go out drinking, gambling and sleeping around, don't expect us to be waiting at home with your dinner ready every night.

Cú Giobach

celtictiger32 wrote: »

i wouldnt see a big problem with that, wasnt particularly leaving them out as such was just assuming if the rest got their independance wouldnt that make england independant also...

It's amusing that in many threads about a break up of the UK people who are arguing against Scotland, Wales, NI breaking away, often end up advocating a referendum for England to do just that, until it's pointed out of course that that would be welcomed by those in favour of independence for the others.

dublinscot

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I don't think anyone would argue against that, it is merely the terms of the divorce that need to be sorted out.

If you want to leave, fine, but if you are looking to go out drinking, gambling and sleeping around, don't expect us to be waiting at home with your dinner ready every night.

Ach don't worry about that. We'll be too busy partying with our similarly oil-rich Scandinavian friends to have time to eat dinner. Good luck with looking after the kids (Wales and NI)

Fratton Fred

irishgeo wrote: »

does the queen have a say at all?

Nope.

who the fug

dublinscot wrote: »

Ach don't worry about that. We'll be too busy partying with our similarly oil-rich Scandinavian friends to have time to eat dinner. Good luck with looking after the kids (Wales and NI)

Read the small print

We get Wales , ye get NI

Fratton Fred

dublinscot wrote: »

Ach don't worry about that. We'll be too busy partying with our similarly oil-rich Scandinavian friends to have time to eat dinner. Good luck with looking after the kids (Wales and NI)

Well just be careful with your money (am I really saying that to a Scot?) because it won't last forever.

Oh, and the Ulster Scots may be looking for a new home soon, maybe you could move Parkhead to Belfast and turn the land into a parade ground.

maggy_thatcher

Cú Giobach wrote: »

It's amusing that in many threads about a break up of the UK people who are arguing against Scotland, Wales, NI breaking away, often end up advocating a referendum for England to do just that, until it's pointed out of course that that would be welcomed by those in favour of independence for the others.

It would be an interesting outcome though if England's referendum passed, but the Scottish/Welsh/NI referendums failed!