You can't quit UK without my approval, David Cameron warns Scots

djpbarry

dlofnep wrote: »

He can say whatever he likes. What he is not allowed is to dictate the terms of the referendum. The SNP has a mandate from the Scottish people, something David Cameron's party failed to receive at either the national elections, or the UK elections in Scotland.

But David Cameron's party is not in government alone.

dlofnep wrote: »

The UK will remain in Scotland's absence.

But the nature of the UK will change. To suggest that nobody outside Scotland should have any say in such matters is simply ridiculous.

LordSutch

LordSutch wrote: »

This thread is about who is going to be the pro Union voice, but would David Cameron (Scottish heritage) be the best mouthpiece for the Pro-Union lobby in Scotland? or might he push even more Scots into the arms of the SNP? Or what about ex PM good old 'Gordon Brown' a real Scot with a Labour background, might he be a better Pro-Union mouthpiece? Or what about ex Liberal leader & another true Scot 'David Steele'? then there's 'David Mundell' who is the only Conservative Member of Parliament representing a Scottish constituency!

Who, if anybody will be the voice of the Pro-Union debate in the battle for Scottish hearts & minds? Who's going to be on the flip side of the SNP Salmond coin? Is one single 'Pro-Union' mouthpiece needed at all? maybe the Union is perfectly safe without a single confrontational voice?

Any takers yet?

Personally I'm thinking Gordon Brown will emerge as the Pro-Union voice, but it remains to be seen . . .

who the fug

LordSutch wrote: »

Personally I'm thinking Gordon Brown will emerge as the Pro-Union voice,

Then the union is ****ed, just like dear Prudence

Fratton Fred

dlofnep wrote: »

Basically, he is subtly attempting imply that Irish people who support the SNP should not be commenting on the topic of Scottish independence, when it's clear that he has posted as much as anyone else on the topic.

The only difference of course is that Irish nationalists are very upfront about who they are, and what their stance is. Fratton Fred, and a handful of other posters in this thread clearly demonstrate a pro-union stance - whilst belittling the legitimate aspiration of Scottish independence, and then attempt to masquerade as impartial commentators. It's quite transparent.

Everyone across the world will take interest in this referendum - from both sides of the spectrum. Fratton Fred would prefer that Irish people supportive of Scottish independence didn't pontificate about Scottish affairs.

My country is directly affected by this, as is David Cameron's. We are as entitled as anyone to have an input into the process, if not the decision.

To say otherwise and then pontificate when you have no direct involvement does smell somewhat of hypocrisy.

I don't want to see the Scots go (and I don't think they will) but if that's their wish, then good luck to them. I do however feel the terms of the separation are important. Essentially, why should the English tax payer pay for Scottish independence?

LordSutch

Would you 'fratton' have a preference as to who might to be the Pro-Union voice in the upcoming storm?

A Dub in Glasgo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Essentially, why should the English tax payer pay for Scottish independence?

Surely you mean the UK taxpayer?

A Dub in Glasgo

LordSutch wrote: »

Any takers yet?

Personally I'm thinking Gordon Brown will emerge as the Pro-Union voice, but it remains to be seen . . .

In order of difficulty for the pro union side with regards to credibility

Any member of the UK Government
Any MP representing a non Scottish constituency
Any MP representing a Scottish constituency
Any MSP

Fratton Fred

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Surely you mean the UK taxpayer?

To be bloody minded about it, the English tax payer is currently being treated unfairly. For example, the subsidies paid to the Welsh, NI and Scottish assemblies are paying for free prescriptions in those countries. In short, the West Lothian question.

Fratton Fred

LordSutch wrote: »

Would you 'fratton' have a preference as to who might to be the Pro-Union voice in the upcoming storm?

We're all friends here, you can call me Fred!

I'm not sure, but as Dub in Glasgow points out, this should ideally be either a Scottish MP or an MSP.

My thoughts are that there will be three pro union voices, one each from Labour (someone like Elaine Murrey, one for the conservatives, maybe Alex Ferguson and one for the Lib Dems, I'm not sure who though as they seem to have lost all credibility in Scotland.

Ultimately, Labour have the strongest say because they are the second biggest party in Holyrood and by far the largest in Westminster, so maybe someone like Russel Brown would be an ideal candidate.

vader65

Surely its speech like this that helps to increase the support for Scottish independence within Scotland and further afield?

Amtmann

KeithAFC wrote: »

What about the monarchy situation with Scotland and is Alex Samond in favour of the monarchy?

Salmond wants to essentially repeal the 1707 Act of Union that created the United Kingdom.
The Union of the Crowns (1603) would remain in place, meaning that the queen would still be the head of state. Salmond is not proposing a republic, but Scotland would be entirely independent, with its own foreign policy, UN seat, EU membership, and defense force.

There is a very well written white paper out there on it, but I can't find the link right now.

LordSutch

Fratton Fred wrote: »

We're all friends here, you can call me Fred!

I'm not sure, but as Dub in Glasgow points out, this should ideally be either a Scottish MP or an MSP.

Cheers Fred, I deliberately printed 'fratton' thinking it was your 1st name )

BBC Radio 4 is a great source of discussion about this issue, personally I think the pro Union side, (both in Westminster & Holyrood) will need to get their act together if they want to tackle Salmond's dogged determination to break-up the Union. Currently there is no single Pro-Unionist mouthpiece. The pro Union side also seem to be in a shables with no real message to combat Mr Salmond!

BBC Radio4 tonight 8pm = Discussion on this very topic!

OS119

vader65 wrote: »

Surely its speech like this that helps to increase the support for Scottish independence within Scotland and further afield?

as with all things, it depends what you're looking for.

BBC political editor Nick Robinson did a piece on Radio 4 this morning about 'what on earth is Cameron playing at?'. the initial logic is that for DC to say anything at all about Scotland plays into the hands of the SNP - and, imv, that is correct. however, the pro-union side believe that once that initial hurdle - the 'what the fcuks it do do with you?' hurdle has been crossed, what the SNP does not want is a 2.5 year conversation/argument/discussion about what would independance look like, because, at the moment, the SNP doesn't have a serious view of what it would look like, and when pressed, they will probably have as many views on what a post-independant Scotland would look like as they do members - and their campaign would then fall apart.

thats a political, subjective judgement, and one that - once i got over the hurdle of yelling 'shut up, shut up, shut up' at the radio whenever DC spoke about the referendum - i have some sympathy for.

it may not work, and as has been mentioned the 'no' side don't exactly have a surfit of credible politicians to lead the campaign - however, imv it has some merit: the truth is that the SNP have for some time been talking up the merits of 'Devolution-max' rather than concentrating on full independance, and the 'arc of prosperity', AS's favourite phrase of some time ago has bitten the dust.

10p to anyone who has heard the words 'Ireland' or 'Iceland' cross his lips in the last year, or hears them between now and the referendum.

djrichard

I want Scotland to be independant.

Justification : I dont like being ruled by the English and their arrogance. I dont want to be dragged into war after war after war as the UK follow the US policing this planet for their own agenda. I dont want Scottish soldiers being killed when the almost inevitable invasion of Iran begins.

I dont know if its going to be better or not for the economy of Scotland, because Im not educated/informed enough on the realities of economics or have any real informed idea on what would actually happen if indepedance was gained. What I do know, is that I would be willing to take that risk and stand on our own two feet. Can I be given a reason why Scotland cannot succeed on its own? There is so much fear about stepping into the unknown, there is a risk involved. In my own life I like to take risks, I enjoy the adventure of the unknown. I want to try.

FREEDOM!

who the fug

djrichard wrote: »

I want Scotland to be independant.

Justification : I dont like being ruled by the English and their arrogance. I dont want to be dragged into war after war after war as the UK follow the US policing this planet for their own agenda. I dont want Scottish soldiers being killed when the almost inevitable invasion of Iran begins.

Them last two wars were started by Tony Blair , and with regards to Iran I think the country as a whole has had enough of foreign adventures.

Fratton Fred

djrichard wrote: »

I want Scotland to be independant.

Justification : I dont like being ruled by the English and their arrogance. I dont want to be dragged into war after war after war as the UK follow the US policing this planet for their own agenda. I dont want Scottish soldiers being killed when the almost inevitable invasion of Iran begins.

I dont know if its going to be better or not for the economy of Scotland, because Im not educated/informed enough on the realities of economics or have any real informed idea on what would actually happen if indepedance was gained. What I do know, is that I would be willing to take that risk and stand on our own two feet. Can I be given a reason why Scotland cannot succeed on its own? There is so much fear about stepping into the unknown, there is a risk involved. In my own life I like to take risks, I enjoy the adventure of the unknown. I want to try.

FREEDOM!

Maybe without a Scottish PM, the UK won't get dragged into as many wars as it did under Blair and Brown.

celtictiger32

Tremelo wrote: »

There is a very well written white paper out there on it, but I can't find the link right now.

be interested to see that if you come across it.

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Maybe without a Scottish PM, the UK won't get dragged into as many wars as it did under Blair and Brown.

'dragged into' ....... wouldnt be the phrase id use.:eek:

Border-Rat

djrichard wrote: »

I want Scotland to be independant.

Justification : I dont like being ruled by the English and their arrogance. I dont want to be dragged into war after war after war as the UK follow the US policing this planet for their own agenda. I dont want Scottish soldiers being killed when the almost inevitable invasion of Iran begins.

I dont know if its going to be better or not for the economy of Scotland, because Im not educated/informed enough on the realities of economics or have any real informed idea on what would actually happen if indepedance was gained. What I do know, is that I would be willing to take that risk and stand on our own two feet. Can I be given a reason why Scotland cannot succeed on its own? There is so much fear about stepping into the unknown, there is a risk involved. In my own life I like to take risks, I enjoy the adventure of the unknown. I want to try.

FREEDOM!

You'd better get ready for a war with Iran, led by Israel, the USA and England. This is a fact and it'll happen before 2014 unfortunately. The USA is building military hospitals in Georgia, thats just the latest sign. Iran will output more NATO bodybags in a week than the Taliban does in a year.

Fratton Fred

Border-Rat wrote: »

You'd better get ready for a war with Iran, led by Israel, the USA and England. This is a fact and it'll happen before 2014 unfortunately. The USA is building military hospitals in Georgia, thats just the latest sign. Iran will output more NATO bodybags in a week than the Taliban does in a year.

Thanks for the heads up, I will get my tin foil hat ready.

Border-Rat

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Maybe without a Scottish PM, the UK won't get dragged into as many wars as it did under Blair and Brown.

But under English PM Tony Blair, the UK invaded Iraq. When Scottish PM Gordon Brown came to power in 2007, the UK ended operations in Iraq.

who the fug

Border-Rat wrote: »

But under English PM Tony Blair, the UK invaded Iraq. When Scottish PM Gordon Brown came to power in 2007, the UK ended operations in Iraq.

Tony Blair

Born Edinburgh


Posh School - Fettes College Edinburgh


Not English but Scottish

Judgement Day

Border-Rat wrote: »

You'd better get ready for a war with Iran, led by Israel, the USA and England. This is a fact and it'll happen before 2014 unfortunately. The USA is building military hospitals in Georgia, thats just the latest sign. Iran will output more NATO bodybags in a week than the Taliban does in a year.

Sounds like you're relishing the prospect. Mine enemy's enemy is my friend? I don't think that Islamic crackpots are likely to be any friends of Ireland.

bwatson

Border-Rat wrote: »

But under English PM Tony Blair, the UK invaded Iraq. When Scottish PM Gordon Brown came to power in 2007, the UK ended operations in Iraq.

You really haven't a clue on the most simple of matters, have you?

bwatson

Judgement Day wrote: »

Sounds like you're relishing the prospect. Mine enemy's enemy is my friend? I don't think that Islamic crackpots are likely to be any friends of Ireland.

Indeed. He seems to be almost looking forward to the situation arising where thousands of dead young men are being flown home from a war in Iran. I wouldn't be too offended however, he doesn't seem to be the brightest of posters and is most likely just looking for an intensely negative reaction.

Border-Rat

who the fug wrote: »

Tony Blair

Born Edinburgh


Posh School - Fettes College Edinburgh


Not English but Scottish

Tony Blairs family and parents - English. Like the war-mongering, Major, Thatcher, Heath, Churchill and Wilson.

Border-Rat

Judgement Day wrote: »

Sounds like you're relishing the prospect.

Relishing the bombing of nuclear reactors? No. Relishing not being able to afford oil heating because of Anglo-American attacks on the third Country in one decade? No.

Mine enemy's enemy is my friend?

Link me to the post where I said this.

I don't think that Islamic crackpots

Why are they crackpots?

are likely to be any friends of Ireland.

Where did I say they were?

bwatson

djrichard wrote: »

I want Scotland to be independant.

Justification : I dont like being ruled by the English and their arrogance. I dont want to be dragged into war after war after war as the UK follow the US policing this planet for their own agenda. I dont want Scottish soldiers being killed when the almost inevitable invasion of Iran begins.

I dont know if its going to be better or not for the economy of Scotland, because Im not educated/informed enough on the realities of economics or have any real informed idea on what would actually happen if indepedance was gained. What I do know, is that I would be willing to take that risk and stand on our own two feet. Can I be given a reason why Scotland cannot succeed on its own? There is so much fear about stepping into the unknown, there is a risk involved. In my own life I like to take risks, I enjoy the adventure of the unknown. I want to try.

FREEDOM!

From a Northern Irish viewpoint, the only real arrogance appears to be coming from north of the border. Constant talk of the referendum, the questions to be put to the Scottish people, the Scots weighing up whether or not they will be better off with or without England. It is clear that any union that exists today is not through a unity of peoples, or histories and experiences, and common identity but through the Scots being unsure of what to do for the good of for themselves and themselves alone. You have no interest in unity at all.

Most English want rid of you anyway. It will never, ever happen but it would be fantastic if after years of talking about your referendum, and whether or not you will leave the English, that it was overturned only for England and Wales to decide to go it alone themselves and screw you bitter individuals over. A free Norn Iron would be a boost too (of course retaining the monarch as our head of state).

Border-Rat

bwatson wrote: »

You really haven't a clue on the most simple of matters, have you?

bwatson wrote: »

Indeed. He seems to be almost looking forward to the situation arising where thousands of dead young men are being flown home from a war in Iran. I wouldn't be too offended however, he doesn't seem to be the brightest of posters and is most likely just looking for an intensely negative reaction.

Ad hom spam. Insults are the best you can manage? You need to calm down mate.

bwatson

Border-Rat wrote: »

Ad hom spam. Insults are the best you can manage? You need to calm down mate.

Can you please point out the sections of my posts which suggested to you I was not in any way calm?

I am perfectly able to state that you are not the most intelligent nor politically aware individual who happens to be knocking about in a very relaxed manner.

Border-Rat

bwatson wrote: »

Can you please point out the sections of my posts which suggested to you I was not in any way calm?

I am perfectly able to state that you are not the most intelligent nor politically aware individual who happens to be knocking about in a very relaxed manner.

Yes, anyone can state this. However, you are not able to demonstrate it. Go on, in your own time.