England v The UK/Britain

djpbarry

I’m not sure if this is the most appropriate forum for this question, but I thought it would be interesting to get the perspectives of Irish people living in the UK. And I’m going to qualify this by saying that I am probably being pedantic.

Something occurred to me when I was home in Dublin over the Christmas – it really bothers me that, when referring to something pertaining to the whole of Britain or the UK, Irish people refer to said thing as “English”. Sometimes, they are, technically, correct. Often, however, “British” would be a more appropriate adjective and this really bothers me! It’s as though they don’t actually recognise the UK as a legitimate country.

For example, while asking me what it was like in London during the royal wedding, some of my family spoke of the “English” royal family. If I give my phone number to someone in Ireland, they might comment on the fact that it’s an “English” number, or on my “English” post-code when giving my address. When I was looking for jobs in the UK a couple of years ago (while still based in Dublin), I was frequently asked if I had found a job in England yet, even though I made no secret of the fact that I was searching all over Britain.

I’ve found it particularly evident when referring to people – Irish people almost never refer to British people as British, but rather as English, Scottish, Welsh, etc. Again, this is often technically correct, but sometimes people would rather be referred to as British (for whatever reason), as is the case with my missus – although she grew up in England, none of her family are English, so she prefers to call herself British. She has been offended in the past when Irish people (such as my mother) will insist that she is English. I’ve also seen this manifested in a slightly different way – I had a Welsh friend in Dublin who happened to have what Irish people considered to be an English accent, so he was labelled by everyone he met as being English, even though he referred to himself as Welsh or British.

So what think ye? Do I speak the truth of Irish people? If so, what gives? Why the (general) refusal to use the term “British”? Or is this all just in my head and/or exclusive to the people I associate with?

who the fug

Yet to meet anyone over here who would describe themselves as British, so can't see why you are hanging it on the Irish.

Only place I seen British used is in the media.

djpbarry

who the fug wrote: »

Yet to meet anyone over here who would describe themselves as British...

I find that incredibly hard to believe - not one single person?

who the fug

djpbarry wrote: »

I find that incredibly hard to believe - not one single person?

Nope, one friend would describe himself Jamaican another if pushed Bengali

London people I know all call themselves English.

djpbarry

who the fug wrote: »

Nope, one friend would describe himself Jamaican another if pushed Bengali

That's odd. Almost everyone I know who was born in Britain, but whose parents are from a non-British background, refer to themselves as either British or British-<some other nationality>. I find the term British Pakistani (or more generally, British Asian) very common, for example.

who the fug

djpbarry wrote: »

That's odd. Almost everyone I know who was born in Britain, but whose parents are from a non-British background, refer to themselves as either British or British-<some other nationality>. I find the term British Pakistani (or more generally, British Asian) very common, for example.

I see what you mean but have yet to come across it , the accountant who works with me calls himself an east African Indian, other friends call themselves Gujarati

r3nu4l

Hmmm, it could be because for many people in Ireland the word 'Brit' has negative connotations as in 'The Brits', in reference to the British Army who 'occupied' the six counties of Northern Ireland for so long.

Part of it too could also just be ignorance. However, that ignorance is not confined to Ireland or Irish people. Many English people I've met have difficulty with the concept of 'The Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland', 'Britain', 'The United Kingdom' and the number of other ways of referring to citizens of that amalgamation of countries.

The Welsh and Scots almost exclusively refer to themselves as such and are often very keen in my experience to show how different and separate they are from the English, whereas the English seem less interested and more apathetic to it all altogether.

Interestingly I have a friend whose parents are Scottish and who was born in Scotland, spent most of her childhood living in Belgium, went to Cambridge University and has lived in Cambridge for 10 years now and describes herself as 'English'...

In many ways the ignorance regarding 'British' reminds me of some 'country folk' in Ireland who think that 'The Pale' is just another way of referring to Dublin whereas in reality the Pale extended far beyond Dublin.

I have to say though, I've yet to hear anyone over here describe themselves as British. Everyone I know says they are English, apart from a few Asian people I know who describe themselves as Asian, not as English or British.

EDIT: I've lived here for over 7 years now.

A Dub in Glasgo

A lot of people I know back in Dublin refers to Britain as England or English including

'Whats it like living in England?' 'English money' English Queen'

djpbarry

r3nu4l wrote: »

Hmmm, it could be because for many people in Ireland the word 'Brit' has negative connotations as in 'The Brits'...

Yeah, that's pretty much how I read it. But is "English" any less of a dirty word from a certain Irish perspective?

r3nu4l wrote: »

Many English people I've met have difficulty with the concept of 'The Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland', 'Britain', 'The United Kingdom' and the number of other ways of referring to citizens of that amalgamation of countries.

Yep, I've certainly encountered that too. I think with regard to Northern Ireland it's very much a case of "I don't really know what the story is with that place, but I don't really care".

r3nu4l wrote: »

The Welsh and Scots almost exclusively refer to themselves as such...

True, but in my experience, Scots will certainly refer to themselves as Scottish first, but most are happy enough to call themselves British as a sort of secondary nationality - the two are not mutually exclusive (as they tend to be in the Irish psyche).

djpbarry

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

A lot of people I know back in Dublin refers to Britain as England or English including

'Whats it like living in England?' 'English money' English Queen'

Exactly what I'm talking about.

r3nu4l

djpbarry wrote: »

Yeah, that's pretty much how I read it. But is "English" any less of a dirty word from a certain Irish perspective?

Unfortunately it depends on who you talk to. There will always be a minority for whom it's a dirty word.

The reverse of that of course is that there are a minority in England for whom being Irish still either means 'Fenian' or 'stupid'. I've been accosted by squaddies in the past and referred to as 'f*cking Paddy' on one occasion and a 'friend' of mine has asked me openly 'Why are the Irish so stupid...er, I mean historically?' :mad:

Yep, I've certainly encountered that too. I think with regard to Northern Ireland it's very much a case of "I don't really know what the story is with that place, but I don't really care".

Yeah again you also have the ignorance in Britain of British people referring to Northern Ireland and logically following that with 'Oh, you're from Southern Ireland' Em, no, I'm from the Republic of Ireland.

The other thing I've observed is my own bosses doing business development in Ireland (Galway) and saying that they would be going 'back to the mainland tonight'. They received filthy looks, were told that Britain wasn't 'the mainland' and that they wouldn't be getting any business. Muppets.

I do think though that most ordinary British people couldn't give a toss about NI and that the people who would want to keep hold of it would be those for whom further erosion of the empire is unthinkable or those who have lost loved ones in the conflict and may perhaps think, 'well what was it all for if we don't hang onto it'. Other than that most people I've spoken with about NI have no strong feelings one way or another about NI.

True, but in my experience, Scots will certainly refer to themselves as Scottish first, but most are happy enough to call themselves British as a sort of secondary nationality - the two are not mutually exclusive (as they tend to be in the Irish psyche).

Very true, the English are very like that too in some regards. I've even heard people here at work saying 'Best of British luck!'.

The bottom line is that despite or perhaps because of the shared history there's a level of ignorance that exists from inhabitants of both islands towards their neighbours.

getz

republic of ireland ? the name of the state is eire,in the english language ireland,the term republic of ireland is a discription of the state[but its not its official name],a change to the name of the state would require a constitutional referendum, in 1996 a parliamentary body charged with reviewing the constitution[the constitution review group] said the name of the state is ireland,so as a englishman who has lived through many of irelands name changes,i always say,are you irish from the south ?,me i was born in england but it doesent say that on my passport or driving licence.

r3nu4l

getz wrote: »

republic of ireland ? the name of the state is eire,in the english language ireland,the term republic of ireland is a discription of the state[but its not its official name],a change to the name of the state would require a constitutional referendum, in 1996 a parliamentary body charged with reviewing the constitution[the constitution review group] said the name of the state is ireland,so as a englishman who has lived through many of irelands name changes,i always say,are you irish from the south ?,me i was born in england but it doesent say that on my passport or driving licence.

Blah, blah, blah. I knew there would be a post about that It's like shooting fish in a barrell Despite the official name of the state being Éire (not eire as you say! ), in day to day life in England I'm asked am I from Southern Ireland, not Éire. The term Southern Ireland must be very confusing for many the person from Donegal because they are not from the South of Ireland, they are from the North of Ireland (though not Northern Ireland) and some of them are from further North than Northern Ireland, so asking them if they are from the South is a bit ridiculous!

The name of the State is Éire, of which the official recognised translation in the English language is 'Ireland'. However, when saying where I am from I concede that the part of the state with the official title 'Northern Ireland' is a part of the UK and as such I differentiate between NI and the rest of the state by using the generally accepted 'Republic of Ireland' and not the term 'Southern Ireland' which is not generally accepted by anyone. Even the national football squad of Éire is termed the Republic of Ireland yet still in England 'Southern Ireland' pervades and infests the lexicon. Understandable, as I say, there is a general ignorance on both sides.

getz

r3nu4l wrote: »

Blah, blah, blah. I knew there would be a post about that It's like shooting fish in a barrell Despite the official name of the state being Éire (not eire as you say! ), in day to day life in England I'm asked am I from Southern Ireland, not Éire. The term Southern Ireland must be very confusing for many the person from Donegal because they are not from the South of Ireland, they are from the North of Ireland (though not Northern Ireland) and some of them are from further North than Northern Ireland, so asking them if they are from the South is a bit ridiculous!

The name of the State is Éire, of which the official recognised translation in the English language is 'Ireland'. However, when saying where I am from I concede that the part of the state with the official title 'Northern Ireland' is a part of the UK and as such I differentiate between NI and the rest of the state by using the generally accepted 'Republic of Ireland' and not the term 'Southern Ireland' which is not generally accepted by anyone. Even the national football squad of Éire is termed the Republic of Ireland yet still in England 'Southern Ireland' pervades and infests the lexicon. Understandable, as I say, there is a general ignorance on both sides.

i dont thing its ignorance, if your comfortable in your clothes ,it not that important,my dad, god rest him, always told everyone that he was from the free state

WesternZulu

I think that it goes both ways.
A lot of people over here in Britain don't know that Ireland isn't part of the UK and still regard us as a 'Home' nation.

2nd night I moved over here I was asked by my house mate if Ireland was part of the UK, when I informed him it wasn't he went on to say how he was nearly sure it said it on his passport and was I certain
This from a University educated lad in his mid twenties.

r3nu4l

getz wrote: »

i dont thing its ignorance, if your comfortable in your clothes ,it not that important,my dad, god rest him, always told everyone that he was from the free state

I don't mean willful ignorance as in 'rudeness', I mean ignorance in terms of being unaware of the reality or not knowing the reality. The problem is that many people are either not 'comfortable in their clothes' or do not want to be associated with a certain term. I, for instance, take offence to being called a 'Paddy', most particularly when an expletive is added before 'Paddy'

Equally, many citizens of the USA take great offence to being called 'Yanks' as it has a specific meaning that many people this side of the Atlantic are unaware (ignorant) of.

Funnily enough I almost consider 'Brits' to be an offensive term (because of that peculiarity of association caused by the Troubles) and would tend to use Welsh, Scottish or English over the term 'British' unless talking about a team of people with mixed 'British' nationalities.

getz

WesternZulu wrote: »

I think that it goes both ways.
A lot of people over here in Britain don't know that Ireland isn't part of the UK and still regard us as a 'Home' nation.

2nd night I moved over here I was asked by my house mate if Ireland was part of the UK, when I informed him it wasn't he went on to say how he was nearly sure it said it on his passport and was I certain
This from a University educated lad in his mid twenties.

thats very true,a lot of old dears think ireland is part of the UK simply because there seems to be more irishmen and woman living in england than scots or welsh,

djpbarry

r3nu4l wrote: »

I've been accosted by squaddies in the past and referred to as 'f*cking Paddy' on one occasion...

Yeah, I’ve also been on the receiving end of a “f*cking stupid Paddy” remark, although I glad to say it was an isolated incident.

r3nu4l wrote: »

The other thing I've observed is my own bosses doing business development in Ireland (Galway) and saying that they would be going 'back to the mainland tonight'. They received filthy looks, were told that Britain wasn't 'the mainland' and that they wouldn't be getting any business. Muppets.

I remember my missus telling me he she had a colleague in a job in London who, before departing on a trip to Dublin, asked her to remind him if Dublin was in Northern Ireland or the Republic – I find that level of ignorance (and laziness for not bothering to look it up) absolutely staggering. I mean, I can understand a certain level of confusion – “How come Ireland has two football teams but only one rugby team” – but there’s a limit.

r3nu4l wrote: »

The bottom line is that despite or perhaps because of the shared history there's a level of ignorance that exists from inhabitants of both islands towards their neighbours.

True dat.

djpbarry

getz wrote: »

...i was born in england but it doesent say that on my passport or driving licence.

Do Irish people tell you you’re from the Southern UK?

WesternZulu wrote: »

A lot of people over here in Britain don't know that Ireland isn't part of the UK and still regard us as a 'Home' nation.

Well, I have encountered people who are well aware that Ireland is independent form the UK, but still kind of think Ireland as being a sort of “home” nation. That’s somewhat understandable given the shared history and all that and of course you have entities like the British and Irish Lions, for example. I wouldn’t be automatically offended if someone referred to Ireland as a “home” nation – it depends on the context.

Jimoslimos

I think the term "British" is only a relatively recent one (historically speaking). Before that "English" was the default phrase, regardless of whether you were from Scotland or Wales. I remember it being discussed on an episode of QI once.

To add further confusion, the English flag, one way of distinguishing from other Brits, has only very recently come into use - e.g., the only flag in use during 1966 WC was that of the Union.

irishinbrum

But I have met plenty of well educated English people who regard 30 mins down the motorway as another planet. Their geography is woeful so it is no surprise when they have not got a clue about Ireland or still think it is in the UK...been living here for 12 months.

And people laugh at Americans not knowing their geography....at least the Americans are not afraid to ask questions (I lived in Boston for awhile), some English relish in their ignorance with the attitude

"This is the best place in the world, I do not need to know about anywhere else and I expect everyone to speak English"

I find middle England a very insecure place. They have fragile egos and need to be filled full of **** and patted on the back on a regular basis. Works a treat over here...;)

LordSutch

My pet hate is the total abuse of, and ignorance surrounding the term 'UK' by many Irish people. I get the impression that the UK equates with 'England' in many Irish peoples heads, whereas in reality The UK = England + Scotland + Wales + Northern Ireland.

UK Cities would also include Belfast, Glasgow, Derry, London, Birmingham, Manchester, Aberdeen, Portsmouth, Cardiff, Liverpool & Armagh!
So when somebody says to me that they are going to the UK for the weekend it means nothing, absolutely nothing to me :cool:

People need to be more precise, the term UK is just too sloppy.

A Dub in Glasgo

Saying 'I am going to the UK for the weekend' is absolutely fine. No different to saying 'I am going to Germany for the weekend'. I can ask specifics. It is much better than my sister who usually says to me 'When are you going back to England?' when I am in Dublin visiting :pac:

LordSutch

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Saying 'I am going to the UK for the weekend' is absolutely fine. No different to saying 'I am going to Germany for the weekend'. I can ask specifics. It is much better than my sister who usually says to me 'When are you going back to England?' when I am in Dublin visiting :pac:

Gosh no, 'you' like most people you are missing the whole point!!

We are physically connected to the UK, so in my minds eye, I know where Glasgow is on the map, I know where London is, I know where Belfast is too, so for that reason I would never ever say "I'm going to the UK for the weekend" because it could mean anything, from going to the South coast of England to going up to Aberdeen, to anywhere on the Northern part of this island, to absolutely anywhere on the islands next door

Personally I would say "I'm off to Manchester/ Belfast/ London/ Cardiff, etc for the weekend", to say I'm off to the UK could mean anything.

A Dub in Glasgo

I not missing any point. France is physically connected to Germany and Spain yet it is OK to say 'I am going to Germany or Spain when in France'

What if someone was visiting Belfast, Edinburgh, London & Cardiff in one trip? is it still OK for them to say 'I am going to the UK'?

LordSutch

I fundamentally disagree, so I'll just leave you with my thoughts in Post#22.

djpbarry

LordSutch wrote: »

The UK = England + Scotland + Wales + Northern Ireland.

Indeed. But "England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland" is a bit of a mouthful, so I tend to just go with "the UK".

Jimoslimos

LordSutch wrote: »

Gosh no, 'you' like most people you are missing the whole point!!

We are physically connected to the UK, so in my minds eye, I know where Glasgow is on the map, I know where London is, I know where Belfast is too, so for that reason I would never ever say "I'm going to the UK for the weekend" because it could mean anything, from going to the South coast of England to going up to Aberdeen, to anywhere on the Northern part of this island, to absolutely anywhere on the islands next door

Personally I would say "I'm off to Manchester/ Belfast/ London/ Cardiff, etc for the weekend", to say I'm off to the UK could mean anything.

So what's the difference when people say "I'm going to America on holiday", which could include the continent of South America, Canada in the North, Alaska or Hawaii should they specify the "States", yet is universally understood to mean the other 48 'mainland' states.

LordSutch

Jimoslimos wrote: »

So what's the difference when people say "I'm going to America on holiday",

The difference my dear fellow is that America is 3000 miles away, and the obvious thing would be to say "I'm off to the States for a couple of weeks", but if I was going next door surely it would make sense to give an approximate location? as in Manchester, Glasgow, London, North Wales, The Lake District, Newcastle, Derry, or Belfast. I just can't see the point of just saying I'm off to the UK, it just seems pointless to me.

That's just me and my like though.

who the fug

LordSutch wrote: »

Jimoslimos wrote: »

So what's the difference when people say "I'm going to America on holiday",

The difference my dear fellow is that America is 3000 miles away, and the obvious thing would be to say "I'm off to the States for a couple of weeks", but if I was going next door surely it would make sense to give an approximate location? as in Manchester, Glasgow, London, North Wales, The Lake District, Newcastle, Derry, or Belfast. I just can't see the point of just saying I'm off to the UK, it just seems pointless to me.

That's just me and my like though.

London or there be dragons is what you mean

Kotek Besar

Up until I moved to Ireland (6 years ago) I would have called myself British. Over the years I've had it drummed out of me though, and I now call myself English.

These days I also find myself saying "will I" instead of "shall I" and I have even ended a sentence with "do you know that kind of a way".