Galway City Council Offices this eve

eire.man

[Quote=Wompa1;76440754 Pity it seems from the accounts on here that the people doing the intimidating were acting like A-holes[/Quote]

what are you on about here??

eire.man

antoobrien wrote: »

bildo wrote: »

Central progressive taxation system including a higher rate of tax for higher earners (over 150k a year).

We had something like that in the 80s. Guess what happened - Ansbacher, non resident accounts & various (legal and illegal) tax reduction schemes.

Oh yeah, only the middle income earners paid these so called progressive taxes.

We're doomed to repeat the mistakes of our recent past because of suggestions like this.

unless real change was forced by a massive revolution and tax havens/avoidence schemes were shut down!! we dont have to take their **** anymore, the only reason they're still getting away with it today is because none of us stopped them yesterday. instead people are insisting on wasting their energies trying to attack the occupy movement,

we didnt ask for any of this anymore than you did, its just we are broke and unemployed like tens of millions around the world who had jobs during a time of completely false "growth"! we will not put the head down and stay quiet anymore.

CANT PAY, WONT PAY

\o/

Bazzy

Think its time to close this thread .. if only we could block technology from the tree huggers who are ALL trolling

eire.man

skelliser wrote: »

Here is some of the photos i took











The rest are on Galway.com

great pix, like your url even more though, awaiting smart comments from those who just cant seem to let it go that some rather do things their own way and thankfully not just staying at home internet warrioring or may i add "keeping their heads down and saying/doing nothing"

eire.man

Bazzy wrote: »

Think its time to close this thread .. if only we could block technology from the tree huggers who are ALL trolling

...

Wompa1

What's up with the picture of the Garda being rocked about? How did that start?

Hello world

eire.man wrote: »

...

Good input

skelliser

antoobrien wrote: »

We had something like that in the 80s. Guess what happened - Ansbacher, non resident accounts & various (legal and illegal) tax reduction schemes.

Oh yeah, only the middle income earners paid these so called progressive taxes.

We're doomed to repeat the mistakes of our recent past because of suggestions like this.

so because people broke the law to avoid paying there dues we shouldnt have a third rate of tax!

We can also close of those loop holes to avoid paying.

antoobrien

skelliser wrote: »

so because people broke the law to avoid paying there dues we shouldnt have a third rate of tax!

Do'h.

While I know trying to explain this is pointless here goes:

The complaint about the current system is that i's unfair on the lower and middle incomes, that the top earners don't pay enough etc.

I'm going to quote from something I posted in a different thread to show up the folly of this view (figures based on revenue income distribution statistics from 2009):

antoobrien wrote: »

Funny thing that, the top 1% of earners pay about 20% of the income tax take. Whereas those on or below the average wage (78% of the tax net were at or under 40k, the average wage was about 38k at the time - I fall into this bracket btw) pay a cumulative 1.003 billion in income tax.

To put that into context, in 2009, the total tax take was €33 billion, the cumulative income of the 78% was 22 billion. Vat (10.7b) was 21% so the most they could pay was about 2.5 billion (which is not possible because food is vat exempt). Excise, they probably paid about 1/3 (it is 1/3 of the population we're talking about), but or arguments sake we'll say they paid 80% - 3.75 billion.

So I make it about 1 b in income tax, 2.5 b in vat and 3.7 b in excise - totaling about 7.25 billion (out of these three areas totaling 27 billion) paid for by 78% of the workforce.

Yeah we should be sticking to those people that are subsidizing our water, roads, sewage, education, health & social welfare bills.

God know we the people that use these services, shouldn't have to pay for any of them.:rolleyes:

Yet when we had a tax system that did tax high pay it was still the middle earners that paid the most.

Oh yeah loopholes - good luck trying to close them in advance, after all accountants are people that are trained in how to legally reduce a tax bill.

skelliser

im well aware the the middle class do and well get screwed at every possible oppurtunity.

A third rate of tax is viable imo.

And less of the patronising attitude please. Theres no need for it.

how much disposable income do the top 20% have compared to the 78%?
how much of the countrys wealth is held by the 20%?

these are just questions so please dont infer some sort of socialist agenda from them.

ronnie3585

Hilarious!

puffin24

I have no problem with people voicing their issues on an agenda that affects them in a productive way, thats how democracy is meant to work but I dont get why they protested at the Galway council buildings? What was the aim of this demonstration? Genuine question, not trying to be a smartass or anything.

antoobrien

skelliser wrote: »

And less of the patronising attitude please. Theres no need for it.

Pointing out some actual facts - not something based on ideological cant but on real figures and historical experience - is patronising now?

If you read the comment fully, you'd have noted I'm part of the 78% that pay so very little into the exchequer, so I should be envious of the apparently low tax paid by those more fortunate than me. Unfortunately for your argument reality gets in the way.

I know why this country is in a mess - it's attitudes like yours.

scholar007

I know that the chair in question should be very upset over this. People here are suggesting that the chair just laid back and let itself get picked up quite easily like some loose woman. This is bringing the morals of the chair into question. I'll have you know the chair was just an innocent party who got caught up in this melee. If ever there was a case of the poor chair being in the wrong place at the wrong time then this is surely it. As a Galway City Council chair - Is the chair entitled to take extended stress leave and possibly even attend counselling to get over the trauma. Surely the chair is entitled to a safe working environment? Will the chair be compensated?

antoobrien

eire.man wrote: »

CANT PAY, WONT PAY

\o/

Can't pay fine.

Won't pay - take a free holiday in Castlerea.

puffin24

On another note (unrelated to the household charge I admit) why do we have both a county council and a city council? In a country as small as Ireland I find it a bit odd that we dont just have provencial councils let alone 2 in one city- that and I get confused about which one I have to apply to for different things. Anything that makes my life easier is certainly something which must be on the government agenda, no?

skelliser

antoobrien wrote: »

I know why this country is in a mess - it's attitudes like yours.

oh right!

I understand now! its the people that want accountability, value for money and a sense of fairness that have this country in a mess.

Not the rich elite cosy cabal of politicians, property developers and cute hoers in particularly from Fianna Fail, many of which have retired on 6 figure pensions that ruined the place.

Silly me!

puffin24

Hmmm...these threads always seem to result in arguments. I think people get so sucked into their own opinions that they are blinkered to the views of others. To be honest, it sounds like me when Im drunk (I MAY have had a "lively debate" with the protesters when I was drinking- but in my defense, they were drunk too) I think there are two main points here- 1: People are angry at the introduction of a household charge that they feel the cannot pay 2: The government need to reign in spending and find new ways of gaining revenue. Both fair points. Perhaps the household charge could have been introduced in a more equitable way BUT throughout Europe these charges already exist. These charges are used to finance local issues- lighting, roads etc. In this case it will more than likely be to service debt (though with all taxes thrown into one pool we cant really say what goes where) Both sides have valid points, and theres no need to be rude to each other

antoobrien

skelliser wrote: »

Silly me!

Putting a punitive tax rate in place ensures that people won't take salaries that are taxed that rate.

The end result is capping the tax take not extending it.

Then again logic has nothing to do with this discussion, so I don't expect you to see this.

beardybrewer

We Need Community wrote: »

Do you agree with the household charge so?

I do.

The state needs sustainable tax revenue and stamp duty doesn't provide it. In fact, stamp duty is just plain stupid and let the state greedily profit and put the blinders on as the housing sector overheated. I think of stamp duty as paying a lifetime of property tax up-front. That's fine if you never move and sucks if you move around. So the problem I have with the eventual property tax will be if they try to charge us stamp duty and then property tax on top of it. They should phase out stamp duty which is unreliable and only provides income when times are good and rakes in money when irreponsibility is encouraged or ignored. A property tax, which will surely take in more than stamp duty but spread over the lifetime of home ownership, based on the value of the home is a reasonable solution.

antoobrien

puffin24 wrote: »

On another note (unrelated to the household charge I admit) why do we have both a county council and a city council? In a country as small as Ireland I find it a bit odd that we dont just have provencial councils let alone 2 in one city- that and I get confused about which one I have to apply to for different things. Anything that makes my life easier is certainly something which must be on the government agenda, no?

There's probably threads in politics about that. If you want you could start a thread to get the discussion going.

puffin24

antoobrien wrote: »

There's probably threads in politics about that. If you want you could start a thread to get the discussion going.

Nah. Looked it up myself. Seems pretty standard in other european countries of similar sizes so thats my curiosity satisfied. Cheers for the suggestion though.

galwaycyclist

skelliser wrote: »

oh right!

I understand now! its the people that want accountability, value for money and a sense of fairness that have this country in a mess.

Not the rich elite cosy cabal of politicians, property developers and cute hoers in particularly from Fianna Fail, many of which have retired on 6 figure pensions that ruined the place.

Silly me!

Yes but this is the whole point isnt it? The anti-property tax campaigners are effectively making common cause with a system of local authority funding that hands the real power to property developers, commercial interests and unelected civil servants (with their own agenda). The anti tax campaigners are effectively endorsing a system that removes political accountability and penalises efficient use of state resources.

It was the system where "development levies" provided local authorities with operational funds that helped drive the property boom. Because the local authorities had no stable independent tax base.

It is a system where commercial interests still pay rates that gives the business lobby disproportionate and unhealthy influence over local councils.

It is a system where central government funds "schemes" and local authority officials come back from Dublin with "the goodies" that has sidelined and emasculated our elected politicians - because if the elected councillors try to amend the schemes in response to community concerns - the officials can threaten to take the money away. Under the current system it is unelected officials who are really in charge.

The same scheme-based system drives a process where money has to be spent on whatever the Dublin mandarins dispensed it for. So funds that are left over from one job can't be used to do something like buy playground equipment. So all budget "X" has to be spent on "X" regardless of whether someone spots a way of doing things more efficiently.

One thing that is very clear to me about this property tax campaign. Is that the Socialist Workers Party will never again be able to criticise "golden circles" or the "tents at the galway races" because, in my view, they have shown themselves to be just as bad.

Doc Ruby

galwaycyclist wrote: »

that removes political accountability

Ahahah, are we talking about the same council here? They had the money to fix the crypto years before half the city was infected with it, and they still didn't bother. Who was fired for not listening to the "Dublin mandarins"? Not one person.

I wouldn't trust these lads to manage a fish stall, never mind a city. All we can reliably expect in the event of them gaining more autonomy is higher pensions and compensation. For themselves.

Anyway, like I said before, cut down government waste and maybe the protests will be muted somewhat. Start out with the HSE/Health boards.

skelliser

Yes but this money is not ring fenced for water, waste and other amenities.
Yes its going to local gov. but if you read the statement by the minister it his he who will decide where the money is spent in the form of "grants"
So effectively "development levies" have now been replaced by "grants"

Its more of the same rubbish just painted a different colour.


Also that old chestnut that we need to pay big salaries to attract great people is one of the hallmarks of the mess we are in.

skelliser

antoobrien wrote: »

Putting a punitive tax rate in place ensures that people won't take salaries that are taxed that rate.

The end result is capping the tax take not extending it.

Then again logic has nothing to do with this discussion, so I don't expect you to see this.

So people who drill their own water and provide their own septic tanks and fund it themselves should pay a tax on it also.
Only in Ireland could that be logical!

Mrs OBumble

Predalien wrote: »

On your point of social welfare, if we take it that 450,000 people are unemployed and the standard rate of welfare is €188 per week (I know a lot are on less than this and some are on more, but just for a ball park figure) then basic social welfare comes to about €4.4 billion, yet our entire budget for social welfare is €20.5 billion. There is clearly a lot of waste going on, to pay for services ...

Does that 20.5 billion include the oldness benefit (know by some as the State Pension), by any chance? Do you know how many people are on it, and how long they stay on it, on average?

Mrs OBumble

bildo wrote: »

...The household charge is absolute non-sense and exists purely as a means of bleeding more money out of the vast majority of the population ...

Do you have any figures about the proportion of people who won't be paying, because they're not liable? Remember that this includes everyone who doesn't own a house (private tenants, council tenants), and everyone who's getting Mortgage Interest relief (I believe that's roughly first home buyers), and some others.

galwaycyclist

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Ahahah, are we talking about the same council here? They had the money to fix the crypto years before half the city was infected with it, and they still didn't bother. Who was fired for not listening to the "Dublin mandarins"? Not one person.

I wouldn't trust these lads to manage a fish stall, never mind a city. All we can reliably expect in the event of them gaining more autonomy is higher pensions and compensation. For themselves.

Anyway, like I said before, cut down government waste and maybe the protests will be muted somewhat. Start out with the HSE/Health boards.

With regret you may be missing the point. It wasn't the elected council that sat on their hands it was the unelected officials. And it wasn't the Dublin mandarins that they were ignoring it was an internal report that warned them that the city was vulnerable and which they chose to sit on.

And one of the reasons they are not accountable is because of a system of local government where they are not spending locally raised taxes locally but act instead as an extension of the Dublin Civil service tossing tit bits to the grateful serfs.

It is system that is inherently wasteful and which rewards and incentivises the waste of community resources. If you wish to tackle waste you need to make the wasters accountable to taxpayers. One obvious way to do that is to make the chain between the taxpayer and the service provider as short and direct and transparent as possible.

Predalien

JustMary wrote: »

Do you have any figures about the proportion of people who won't be paying, because they're not liable? Remember that this includes everyone who doesn't own a house (private tenants, council tenants), and everyone who's getting Mortgage Interest relief (I believe that's roughly first home buyers), and some others.

It includes people on mortgage interest supplement, not mortgage interest relief.