Galway City Council Offices this eve

Doc Ruby

antoobrien wrote: »

But a proper property tax would have stopped the whole thing getting out of control in the fashion that it did.

Nope, it would merely have caused spending to spiral even higher, landing us deeper in trouble. Running a surplus was not a hallmark of the bubble. And those cyclical taxes are still very much in place.

antoobrien wrote: »

Btw €160m less in disposable income means at worst €33.6m less vat - so we're really talking about a net gain of €126.4m in taxes.

See this is where so much confusion comes from - the economy is not the tax returns. The tax returns are a burden on the economy. A neccessary and indeed welcome one as long as spending doesn't run out of control, which it has.

Money spent in the private economy creates something called a multiplier effect, accepted by all schools of economic thought, whereby ten euros spent creates five euros more, then two euros more, and finally petering out. Taxes that go back into the economy almost directly, like welfare, contribute somewhat to this multiplier effect.

antoobrien wrote: »

It's going to pay for things like fixing potholes & footpaths.

Sure it is. :rolleyes:

antoobrien wrote: »

For a quick analysis of just how little the vast majority of the population contributes to the overall take take read this post.

You mean that wrong post that completely leaves out non-exchequer income and expenditure?

antoobrien wrote: »

Welfare feeding back into the economy, oh lord who's been brainwashing you?

Er, John Maynard Keynes? Milton Friedman?

antoobrien wrote: »

Out of a DSP spend last year of €13 billion (current expense) the dole is about €4 billion - where are we spending the other €9 billion? A lot of the welfare is basically subsidising the likes of the ESB & private landlords - helping to keep their prices up. Take a scythe to the lot of it!

You can cut rent relief and other allowances without hitting the dole. All of the dole money gets spent each week by the majority of dole recipients. Like I said, some spending feeds back to the wider economy more than others.

antoobrien

Doc Ruby wrote: »

You mean that wrong post that completely leaves out non-exchequer income and expenditure?

The one that deals with the actual taxes raised from what people earn and spend - income tax, vat & excise.

Or would you like to go back to 1991 when there were 3 tax rates people paid 52% tax on everything over the equivalent of €12,500?

skelliser

antoobrien wrote: »

Also, anyone that can afford to buy a pack of cigarettes or a pint once a week can more than afford this charge.

It may only be 100euro this year but it could easily be 700euro next year.

Also were i live we pay for our own water our own septic tank and there is no footpaths or streetlights.

Why should i pay a tax in which i get nothing in return?
Doesnt really sound logical.

And before people say, well it was your choice to live in the countryside.
Well one of the reasons people moved outta the cities was because of the extortionate prices for houses.
So not only will i not get anything in return this tax will actually cause people to move further out were land is cheaper.
So this tax actually copperfastens the status que.

Doc Ruby

antoobrien wrote: »

The one that deals with the actual taxes raised from what people earn and spend - income tax, vat & excise.

Whoops.

I'll take it that you concede the rest of the points as well?

antoobrien

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Er, John Maynard Keynes? Milton Friedman?

Oh god no, not another socialist that doesn't know Keynes encouraged capital spending - which welfare most certain is not.

Perhaps you're familiar with the Nash equilibrium - where the parties can only achieve the mutual best outcome through agreement & cooperation?

Doc Ruby wrote: »

Whoops.

I'll take it that you concede the rest of the points as well?

Good god anybody that actually reads those things knows that PRSI & motor tax aren't counted there - they're treated as departmental receipts, which co-incidentally helps to make the figures DSP/DSW (and formerly health) look smaller than they are.

FYI PRSI is accounted for as a departmental receipt for DSP and the former health levy was paid directly to DoH.

Motor tax is paid to a fund used to pay for local services (like that library beside the cathedral, water, sewage and road maintenance) - none of which show up in the exchequer accounts either.

Btw if you cared to read the post you have so blithely dismissed, I said specifically that I was dealing with certain taxes (they happen to be related to individual income). You might have noticed that I left out the 4th biggest tax generator, corporation tax (though I didn't explain that it was because it's dealing with company income not personal income).

I notice you haven't actually argued with the figures I've suppled. Care to explain on why you think they're flawed (might want to read the post that it's originally replying to as well)?

antoobrien

skelliser wrote: »

Why should i pay a tax in which i get nothing in return?
Doesnt really sound logical.

It's going into the local government fund - which in your case means helping to pay for among other things road maintenance and other services provided by Galway county council.

Lockstep

Meh, I dislike the flat property tax but if it was brought in based on household value I'd be all for it. It's about time we had something approaching a wealth tax in this country.

A property tax is badly needed, given that the stamp duty was a once-off and penalised those who moved around. If we'd brought in a proper property tax and implemented the Kenny Report (capping land prices) we wouldn't have had such an unsustainable boom.

Everyone paying the same amount isn't cool though. IMHO.

skelliser

antoobrien wrote: »

It's going into the local government fund - which in your case means helping to pay for among other things road maintenance and other services provided by Galway county council.

Iv never seen any council workers fixing the potholes around these parts.

Local people fix it because they have realised that the council wont.

What other services do the council supposedly provide because im at a loss?

antoobrien

skelliser wrote: »

Iv never seen any council workers fixing the potholes around these parts.

Local people fix it because they have realised that the council wont.

What other services do the council supposedly provide because im at a loss?

I've seen them filling in ditches, doing drainage work - fixing roads etc.

I'm often amazed in some places near the borders of Galway. North of Dunmore the road isn't great in spots, then you notice the fresher paving in Roscommon. The reverse is true on some of the roads between Galway and Clare in the south.

Why are we talking about this in the city forum?

Doc Ruby

antoobrien wrote: »

Oh god no, not another socialist that doesn't know Keynes encouraged capital spending - which welfare most certain is not.

Facepalm. Okay, we've established you have no clue what Keynesian economics is all about.

antoobrien wrote: »

Perhaps you're familiar with the Nash equilibrium - where the parties can only achieve the mutual best outcome through agreement & cooperation?

That hasn't anything to do with economic theory. But it does establish that you're probably a trade unionist of some sort or are otherwise on the taxpayers euro looking to protect his own patch.

Which explains the dogged flying-in-the-face-of-all-evidence refusal to accept any form of reality that leads to cuts. Most of which was probably done on said taxpayers euro.

antoobrien wrote: »

Good god anybody that actually reads those things knows that PRSI & motor tax aren't counted there - they're treated as departmental receipts, which co-incidentally helps to make the figures DSP/DSW (and formerly health) look smaller than they are.

FYI PRSI is accounted for as a departmental receipt for DSP and the former health levy was paid directly to DoH.

Motor tax is paid to a fund used to pay for local services (like that library beside the cathedral, water, sewage and road maintenance) - none of which show up in the exchequer accounts either.

Btw if you cared to read the post you have so blithely dismissed, I said specifically that I was dealing with certain taxes (they happen to be related to individual income). You might have noticed that I left out the 4th biggest tax generator, corporation tax (though I didn't explain that it was because it's dealing with company income not personal income).

I notice you haven't actually argued with the figures I've suppled. Care to explain on why you think they're flawed (might want to read the post that it's originally replying to as well)?

And some exceptional headless chicken handbagging there, 9/10 for effort though.

This has gone way beyond the remit of this forum, so I'll leave it there.

biko

It has so we'll stop now. If any news pertaining to this topic arrises PM me.