Should the rich pay higher fines ?

Capt'n Midnight

I can remember a time when the fine for speeding here was £50 and was treated as a business expense.

In Finland if you break the law you can get fined fixed penalty and all that.
If you take the piss then the fine is proportional to your income.

http://www.globalmotors.net/finnish-millionaire-gets-111888-euro-speeding-ticket/

A Finnish millionaire Jari Bär, the former owner of the Iisalmi’s company Finnritilä was handed a fine

of 111,888 euros (141,661 dollars)

for doing 82 km/h (51 mph) in a 60 km/h (37 mph) zone on January in Siilijärvi, Finland.

According to Savon Sanomat if the speed had been 80 km/h the fine would have been only 115 Euros.

...

Why such a huge speeding ticket? In Finland fines are issued according to ones salary per day. As Mr. Bär was 2 km over the standard fine range he had to pay his 12 days income. If his income in 2007 had been 50 euros a day, then the ticket would have been 600 euros.

One big problem I can see here is that a lot of rich people here don't declare their income fully. Look at how many Tax Amnesty's and tribunals we've had. :mad:

I'm not talking just about speeding, but about stuff where there are clear signs where existing fines are not a deterrent to those who can readily afford them and where they are completely taking the piss. Like the weights and measures on petrol stations. Or serial repeat evaders.

Al Capwned

Yep a percentage of your weekly income would be better!

80euro to me is a fortune, whereas some f*ckers can leave it as a tip!

AnonoBoy

Whenever I get stuck with a fine I'm all like, "Don't you know who I am? I own this town - I'll have your badge officer. You'll be putting out littering fines in coldest Alaska by the time I'm through with you."

So yes, I think higher fines should be enforced against me to stop this sort of behaviour.

dotsman

alproctor wrote: »

Yep a percentage of your weekly income would be better!

80euro to me is a fortune, whereas some f*ckers can leave it as a tip!

What happens if you don't have a "weekly income"?

Blazer

Absolutely not...what's to stop all the scumbags paying fúckall because they're on welfare?????

Plus I imagine it potentially could become an equality issue as well....I mean why should I pay more than Joe Soap just because I earn more...if that's not discrimination I don't know what is..
Isn't it enough I hand over about 51% of my income on tax?

seamus

Irish Constitution:

All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.

Any attempt to salary-link fines would fall foul of this IMO.

Though in principle I'm not against it as a monetary punishment is only punishment if you will miss it. Plenty of the faux-riche during the boom years were known for preferring to risk an €80 parking fine rather than have to search for a remote parking spot with the peasants.

It would make sense to reword the legislation so that it sets out the minimum fine for an offence, but the judge may impose any fine he deems reasonable above that. At present the legislation tends to set the ceiling on a fine.

admiralofthefleet

no. people who may have worked very hard to get rich shouldnt have to. when it comes to tax they shoould pay more though

Cianos

I often see very expensive cars taking the pi$$ in the bus lanes - and it probably makes economical "sense" for a lot of them....even if they get fined once every few months, but within that time save themselves a couple of hours, if their time is worth more than ~50/hour which it probably is, then even with the fines it's worth it.

Chuck Stone

Blazer wrote: »

Absolutely not...what's to stop all the scumbags paying fúckall because they're on welfare?????

'They' would still have to pay fines and also be subject to penalty points.

Flat charges like VAT, the TV licence, and fines are proportionately a greater burden on middle and lower income earners, people on welfare, disability, and pensions.

It's a fairer way to apply fines.

AngryPensioner

seamus wrote: »

Irish Constitution:


Any attempt to salary-link fines would fall foul of this IMO.

Though in principle I'm not against it as a monetary punishment is only punishment if you will miss it. Plenty of the faux-riche during the boom years were known for preferring to risk an €80 parking fine rather than have to search for a remote parking spot with the peasants.

It would make sense to reword the legislation so that it sets out the minimum fine for an offence, but the judge may impose any fine he deems reasonable above that. At present the legislation tends to set the ceiling on a fine.

The Irish Constitution isn't used anymore though. The EU commission make the laws of this country now.

Toby Take a Bow

Blazer wrote: »

Absolutely not...what's to stop all the scumbags paying fúckall because they're on welfare?????

Plus I imagine it potentially could become an equality issue as well....I mean why should I pay more than Joe Soap just because I earn more...if that's not discrimination I don't know what is..
Isn't it enough I hand over about 51% of my income on tax?

They'd be paying the same (but relative) amount of their income as you would. Otherwise they're paying (proportionately) more, which doesn't make sense.

You pay proportionate income tax so why not apply this to other taxes too?

I would guess that the logistics of imposing such a fine might be a headache and take a long time to implement.

44leto

In traffic offences we are all penalised by points, which is a kind of equaliser. I don't speed but I still have gotten 2 speeding fines once going 65 in a 60 zone and another for going slightly over 80 in an 80 zone. I find you do have to be very careful in the 60 zones, the speed limit in most these zones don't make sense, you think you are in an 80.

80€ is a lot of money to me and it is a very punitive fine and very much a deterrent. I do know a well off man and the fines are not punitive, 80€ is probably an hours wages to him, but he is on 10 points and clinging dearly to his licence. But he always liked his fast sports cars.

oldyouth

If everything in life was in relation to your earnings, where's the incentive for people to better themselves. Why should a wealthy person have to pay more for a fine?

Run_to_da_hills

With a fair few drivers signing on in Ireland I couldn't see much money being raised if they took on that approach.

Al Capwned

Blazer wrote: »

Absolutely not...what's to stop all the scumbags paying fúckall because they're on welfare?????
?

Please tell i've picked you up wrong and you dont think that all people on welfare are scumbags?

Wile E. Coyote

dotsman wrote: »

What happens if you don't have a "weekly income"?

Then you can't afford to own a car and shouldn't be on the road.

Capt'n Midnight

seamus wrote: »

Irish Constitution:

All citizens shall, as human persons, be held equal before the law.

Any attempt to salary-link fines would fall foul of this IMO.

Can't see why

For someone on low income many of the fixed penalty points would represent a huge chunk of their weekly disposable income.


Perhaps as a first stage we could index link fines. IIRC the max fine for running an unlicensed pub is just £50

juan.kerr

Maybe the poor should pay higher fines. Makes about as much sense as the rich paying higher fines.

Run_to_da_hills

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Then you can't afford to own a car and shouldn't be on the road.

Most people in this country don't own their cars. Ie they belong to the banks, credit unions etc. Many of these have been laid off recently.

Al Capwned

juan.kerr wrote: »

Maybe the poor should pay higher fines. Makes about as much sense as the rich paying higher fines.

:rolleyes:

Feel sorry for the lad who fell foul to the same system.. The fine was based on his previous years earnings and he had all but went bankrupt between then and the fine. I'm sure some retard in here will try and justify that but it's impossible.

We're either capitalist or we're not. Who give a fuk if the less well off pay a higher proportion of their income. They're less well off. You start applying this system to everything and it's just a form of communism. Everyone will have equal buying power regardless of wealth.

My parking fines used to kill me but it didn't make me wish the Mercedes next door should pay 5,000euro while I pay 60euro.

seamus

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Can't see why

Because in absolute terms a higher fine is a greater punishment, therefore you are not treating a rich person equally before the law.

It's all interpretation of course, but it doesn't really matter that one person would find €80 more difficult than another, the point is that they are both being fined equal amounts. For legal purposes those people are equals, their salaries are irrelevant, therefore they receive equal fines.

No way, its complete bull. The punishment should be the same if your on the dole or are a millionaire. I think its a disgrace the way its done in Finland.

Son Of A Vidic

OP - Yes the rich should pay higher fines in proportion to their income and then multiply it by a factor of 10.

juan.kerr

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

OP - Yes the rich should pay higher fines in proportion to their income and then multiply it by a factor of 10.

And lets start locking up the poor for all motoring offences.

Capt'n Midnight

juan.kerr wrote: »

And lets start locking up the poor for all motoring offences.

Actually we do lock up the poor when they don't pay fines

we would probably lock up the rich too, but they usually pay up at that stage

Mr. Presentable

alproctor wrote: »

Please tell i've picked you up wrong and you dont think that all people on welfare are scumbags?

You have what he said backwards. He said all the scrumbags are on welfare :pac:

FTGFOP

oldyouth wrote: »

Why should a wealthy person have to pay more for a fine?

So that it's an effective deterrent for wealthy people, I suppose.

juan.kerr

FTGFOP wrote: »

So that it's an effective deterrent for wealthy people, I suppose.

So we don't mind less well off people continuing to commit the offences, we just don't want wealthy people doing so. Makes sense.

dotsman

Wile E. Coyote wrote: »

Then you can't afford to own a car and shouldn't be on the road.

Um, you do realise that the richest people don't get a weekly wage?

Business owners typically don't accumulate the majority of their wealth through wages, but through share dividends/appreciation and one-off payments

What about tradesmen? How do you define their weekly income? What about small business owners, farmers, musicians, actors, self employed people etc? A lot of people don't have a defined weekly wage. Only regular employees in full time employment in a single job could define a weekly wage.

WhatAMelon

Yes, they should. A fine could hurt a poor person would mean nothing for the rich.

juan.kerr

I thought wealthy people were above the law? Or is that a myth perpetuated by the left?

FTGFOP

seamus wrote: »

Because in absolute terms a higher fine is a greater punishment, therefore you are not treating a rich person equally before the law.

Is it? How so? In the case of the poor person an 80 euro fine is a considerable punishment, in the case of a wealthy person it is not. So while the currency amount is equal the burden of the fine -surely the more important consideration with regard to justice- is very different depending on your income.

Tax amounts are different for different incomes, and as it stands now judges hand down different sentences for similar crimes. I don't see fines based on income as any fundamental injustice. It seems to work in some other countries.

seamus wrote: »

It's all interpretation of course, but it doesn't really matter that one person would find €80 more difficult than another, the point is that they are both being fined equal amounts. For legal purposes those people are equals, their salaries are irrelevant, therefore they receive equal fines.

Can't it just be looked on as being equal in terms percentages of income? The fine is supposed to be a deterrent, after all.

The penalty points route would probably be the simpler solution though, Maybe 0.5 points for illegal parking, something like that.

RichieC

Reminds of the speeding tickrt from CA were some 25 yo got a 200 dollar fine for doing 220 mph in a bugatti veyron.

That should be jail time.

FTGFOP

juan.kerr wrote: »

So we don't mind less well off people continuing to commit the offences, we just don't want wealthy people doing so. Makes sense.

I didn't see anyone saying that. It's that people think that fines should be as a great a deterrent to the wealthy as they are to the poor.

RichieC

juan.kerr wrote: »

I thought wealthy people were above the law? Or is that a myth perpetuated by the left?

You kind of are if your fines make no impact on you. Herpyderpy left.. JFC..

promethius42

Perhaps some sort of means tested fine? Then again this may be seen to be discriminatory toward the higher earners. For something the likes of speeding, a low earner speeding and a high earner speeding are in equal proportions of wrong so why would it be justifiable to charge the high earner more imply because they can afford it?

juan.kerr

FTGFOP wrote: »

I didn't see anyone saying that. It's that people think that fines should be as a great a deterrent to the wealthy as it is to the poor.

Are there any metrics or research to back up the suggestion that the current system is less of a deterrent for the wealthy? Other than anecdotal 'evidence'.

If we are referring exclusively to motoring offences, then the points system is a better way of introducing equity - or will someone point out that the wealty can afford drivers?

If this was introduced, then I think the social welfare system should also change to pay out based on previous salary rather than the current approach whereby everyone gets the same. Same principle surely?

seamus

FTGFOP wrote: »

Is it? How so?

Because the absolute value of €80 is €80, regardless of one's income.

FTGFOP

But the absolute value of the punishment it not equal. A poor person and a rich person both being fined 80 euro is not equal punishment. The currency value is the same but the punishment is different.

Sindri

promethius42 wrote: »

Perhaps some sort of means tested fine? Then again this may be seen to be discriminatory toward the higher earners. For something the likes of speeding, a low earner speeding and a high earner speeding are in equal proportions of wrong so why would it be justifiable to charge the high earner more imply because they can afford it?

Its justifiable to ask a high earner to pay more of a fine because the morally righteous left think so. Even though as you pointed out they are the same crime but it would result in different punishments based solely on ones wealth.

juan.kerr

Is this not discrimination? Or is there an unwritten rule that nothing you do to the middle income can be classed as discrimination?

Sindri

FTGFOP wrote: »

But the absolute value of the punishment it not equal. A poor person and a rich person both being fined 80 euro is not equal punishment. The currency value is the same but the punishment is different.

Not an equal punishment but the application of the law would be equal, and thus both citizens would then be viewed as equal in law.

FTGFOP

juan.kerr wrote: »

Are there any metrics or research to back up the suggestion that the current system is less of a deterrent for the wealthy? Other than anecdotal 'evidence'.

Won't simple logic do? An 80 euro fine is less of a deterrent to a rich person than a poor person.

juan.kerr wrote: »

If this was introduced, then I think the social welfare system should also change to pay out based on previous salary rather than the current approach whereby everyone gets the same. Same principle surely?

This is more like US system, and logically enough is proportional to what you paid into it while you were working. Seems fair to me. Going outside the scope of this thread though, I'd say.

FTGFOP

Sindri wrote: »

Not an equal punishment but the application of the law would be equal, and thus both citizens would then be viewed as equal in law.

My logic is that the burden on the payee = the punishment and in that way the fines could have different cash values but be equal punishments.

PCPhoto

hmmm... should the rich pay higher fines .... if they break the law and ignore the law ..YES !

In the same way that someone who is poor should be given higher and higher fines if he/she continues to break the law.

I cant understand why we cant/dont introduce a simple system for driving - PROPER enforcement of the penalty points system (obviously changing some of the stuff to make it properly about road safety and not about creating revenue).

if/when someone goes above the penalty point limit .... they have to complete and pass "Driving School" - which would mean a number of weeks of weekly sessions learning proper driving techniques and attitude on the road - something which the person has to pay for and pass BEFORE they get their next licence....and even if they do they face 12months with a tachograph/GPS system fitted to their vehicle which would be reviewed on a monthly basis to ensure at least 12months of lawful driving to completely change attitude/behaviour on the roads.

Sindri

FTGFOP wrote: »

My logic is that the burden on the payee = the punishment and in that way the fines could have different cash values but be equal punishments.

Yes but then we would be differentiating the equality between the higher income earners and the lower income earners in regards to the law. So if you earn more you pay more is discrimination against higher income earners.

The state/law would then discriminating against those who earn more just because they earn more. The law itself must regard all as equals.

EDIT
123rd post YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYY

juan.kerr

FTGFOP wrote: »

Won't simple logic do? An 80 euro fine is less of a deterrent to a rich person than a poor person.

So that's a no then. Case closed.

Suryavarman

Giving different punishments for the same crimes based on spite and jealousy. Interesting idea.

juan.kerr

Maybe we should take this a step further.

Is the OP suggesting randomly cherry picking specific practices that suit his / her political opinions, or would he/she advocate implementing some other Finish practices?

How do the Finnish welfare rates & practives compare to those in Ireland?

Chuck Stone

Suryavarman wrote: »

Giving different punishments for the same crimes based on spite and jealousy. Interesting idea.

How is being fined a % of ones income anything other than fair?