201 Class Locomotives

trellheim

is there a fleet list of the 201s anywhere and their current state ( incl NIRs )

GM228

trellheim wrote: »

is there a fleet list of the 201s anywhere and their current state ( incl NIRs )

All 201s in service except 201-205, 210-214, 225, 232 and 230, all the rest are generally in service bar a few undergoing scheduled maintenance, none of the above (except 232, 230 and possibly 225) are likely to return to service.

232 and 230 are undergoing overhaul. 225 may be in the ramps next year for overhaul, but not yet confirmed.

233 is on medium term loan to NIR since August and is generally confined to York Road although it did come back to IE two weeks before Chrismtas for an exam and even managed a trip to Ballina on the IWT but is now back with NIR.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

Currently undergoing body and electrical overhaul (to be the re-engineering test bed).

Thanks, only heard it from someone else and didn't really believe it!

233 is on medium term loan to NIR since August and is generally confined to York Road although it did come back to IE two weeks before Chrismtas for an exam and even managed a trip to Ballina on the IWT but is now back with NIR.

What are they using it for, assume it's in addition to the DD spare there?

Captain Chaos

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

What are they using it for, assume it's in addition to the DD spare there?

Shunting and per way trains as 231 and 233 will not be made fully DD compatible until 2017 some time.

Jamie2k9

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Shunting and per way trains as 231 and 233 will not be made fully DD compatible until 2017 some time.

They should also really redo the yellow ends on 231, the orange/yellow blend is the odd ball in the fleet of 201's and it's the colors of the ICR (almost all of them) ends. Normal Yelllow suits 201 class much better.

Issue with NIR 111 class?

GM228

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

What are they using it for, assume it's in addition to the DD spare there?

Shunting and per way trains as 231 and 233 will not be made fully DD compatible until 2017 some time.

NIR have their 111s for shunting and per way, 233 is with NIR specifically for testing of the Enterprise carriages which are currently going through a post refurbishment "improvement programme" which involves a certain amount of fault free hours movements within the depot and various other tests which required the use of a 201 but not specifically one with the MMI system as that is not part of the testing programme.

They didn't want to commit a loco which can actually work the train in passenger service as it would be tied up with the project and so the only other available 201 was sent.

216 will also be compatible with the Enterprise and already has the new console fitted for the MMI system.

metrovick001

212 on 1130 Heuston-Waterford at Cherryville junction 06-Jan-07 by Metro Vick, on Flickr

Not my video, but here's 233 during the time it had its silencer bypassed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIgLzc1uHFs

Itssoeasy

I was in Kent station recently and I saw I think 234 with the name plates in Irish and english but they were painted yellow with black lettering. Weren't they removed before and were they not painted ?

Also 234 looked fresh out of inchicore so maybe that's why I noticed it.

215/4002 failed on the 0800 Heuston to Cork near Ballybrophy. Passengers detrained to the 0900, hauled by 220. 087 to haul it back to Dublin.

I know because I'm on the 0900 and intended to get a bus from Limerick, which I'll now miss.

Jamie2k9

Karsini wrote: »

215/4002 failed on the 0800 Heuston to Cork near Ballybrophy. Passengers detrained to the 0900, hauled by 220. 087 to haul it back to Dublin.

I know because I'm on the 0900 and intended to get a bus from Limerick, which I'll now miss.

Wonder if its same set that failed (loco 217 failed) last night on the 17.00 and needed a replacment engine to continue.

BlinkingLights

What's the expected lifespan of those locomotives, they're going to be 30 years old in 2024 which isn't that far away.

Captain Chaos

BlinkingLights wrote: »

What's the expected lifespan of those locomotives, they're going to be 30 years old in 2024 which isn't that far away.

Well 10 were only in use 14-15 years before being withdrawn. The rest are being rebuilt with new eco engines from next year so I'd say another 10-15 years at least in them if they still have a purpose by then.

The 071 fleet is still going strong all 18 locos at 41 years now. I can't see the 201s going 41 years of service though.

The oldest DART units are 34 years old and had their mid life refurb 10 years ago.

BlinkingLights

It just seems like a set of proper power cars for the Cork train and the Enterprise would make more sense.

Captain Chaos

BlinkingLights wrote: »

It just seems like a set of proper power cars for the Cork train and the Enterprise would make more sense.

The Enterprise stock will be due replacement around the time the 201s life expire anyway.

They'll just replace the DD stock and Mk4s with a version of long ICR sets. Sure 4 years ago there were only 3 Mk4 sets in daily use with 5 sets in rotational storage. ICRs covered most of the Mk4 services.

BlinkingLights

If they've any aspiration to do 200km/h it would either need to be the MK4 and new locos or an upgraded version of the ICRs.

The MK4 is designed for 200km/h it just needs an extra braking disk installed on each bogie afaik. They were designed to be future proofed for faster service when the rest of the infrastructure was ready to support it. They initially are configured for 160 km/h service which is all the 201s can deliver anyway.

The existing ICRs only can do 160km/h as far as I'm aware and I'm not sure if the Enterprise has been upgraded to allow higher speeds. The original configuration was limited to Only 145km/h. The old MK3 generating vans they're carrying were rated to go 160km/h

Was the Enterprise upgraded mechanically? I would imagine the DD coach bodies are well capable of higher speeds - seems to be more the odd choice of bogies and braking systems.

Even a few stretches of line where it could get up to 200 on a Cork trip (away from areas where it's mixing with ICRs and commuter Rail would allow them to comfortably beat the motorway.

goingnowhere

Enterprise sets are designed for 100 mph, limited to 90 mph as the route maximum is 90 mph

The MK4 and MK3 coaches are good for 125mph/200kph today

The problem is stopping, so above 100mph you need some form of EP braking system

Dublin Cork with the exception of a few corners would be good for 200kph over decent distances

BlinkingLights

Irishrail.ie and various other sources seem to mention 145 km/h on the De Dietrich coaches:

I assume they must have done some kind of a mechanical upgrade on those?

http://www.irishrail.ie/about-us/intercity-1

MK3 coaches in the configuration Irish Rail used i.e. hauled, were only ever signed off for 100mph service, not 125, which was only approved for HST in the UK. They may have been technically capable of it, but they were not signed off for it.

Jamie2k9

The DD didn't really receive any mechanical work and they rarely go above 80 on the route to Belfast, there may be a small 90 section in NI but that's it.

They are likely capable of higher speeds but I suspect you will never see it with the DD stock.

BlinkingLights

They did have their bogies completely rebuilt and in 2005 had a second disc brake added.

GM228

BlinkingLights wrote: »

They did have their bogies completely rebuilt and in 2005 had a second disc brake added.

201s don't have disc brakes, just their standard thread brakes.

Captain Chaos

GM228 wrote: »

201s don't have disc brakes, just their standard thread brakes.

He talking about the DD stock.

GM228

Captain Chaos wrote: »

He talking about the DD stock.

Misread the post!

tabbey

BlinkingLights wrote: »

Irishrail.ie and various other sources seem to mention 145 km/h on the De Dietrich coaches:

That is the same as 90 mph, the maximum line speed on the northern line.

tabbey

goingnowhere wrote: »

Enterprise sets are designed for 100 mph, limited to 90 mph as the route maximum is 90 mph

The MK4 and MK3 coaches are good for 125mph/200kph today

The problem is stopping, so above 100mph you need some form of EP braking system

What is an EP braking system?

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

GM228

goingnowhere wrote: »

Enterprise sets are designed for 100 mph, limited to 90 mph as the route maximum is 90 mph

The MK4 and MK3 coaches are good for 125mph/200kph today

The problem is stopping, so above 100mph you need some form of EP braking system

tabbey wrote: »

What is an EP braking system?

Fred Swanson wrote: »

Enhanced Performance.

EP brakes are Electro Pneumatic brakes as fitted to modern DMU and EMU trains.

Traditional coaching stock has the 2 pipe air Westinghouse brake system which is good for well over 100MPH, no need for EP when in excess of 100MPH.

Itssoeasy

219 and DVT no 4001 climbed up the hill out of cork at 16:20. No picture just saw it as I came into the station.

goingnowhere

GM228 wrote: »

EP brakes are Electro Pneumatic brakes as fitted to modern DMU and EMU trains.

Traditional coaching stock has the 2 pipe air Westinghouse brake system which is good for well over 100MPH, no need for EP when in excess of 100MPH.

Not if you need to stop within existing block spacing. All trains running in the UK over 100mph have EP brakes.

GM228

goingnowhere wrote: »

Not if you need to stop within existing block spacing. All trains running in the UK over 100mph have EP brakes.

No they don't, all modern DMU and EMU type trains have EP brake systems, but conventional hauled rolling stock does not.

Trains operating upto 125MPH can stop within existing block spaces using the conventional 2 pipe air brake system and interestingly even EP braked trains such as the 390s are also limited to 125MPH so as to enable them to stop within existing block spaces.

GM228

Cravens wrote: »

What's the story with 225? Any return on the cards?

GM228 wrote: »

All 201s in service except 201-205, 210-214, 225, 232 and 230, all the rest are generally in service bar a few undergoing scheduled maintenance, none of the above (except 232, 230 and possibly 225) are likely to return to service.

232 and 230 are undergoing overhaul. 225 may be in the ramps next year for overhaul, but not yet confirmed.

233 is on medium term loan to NIR since August and is generally confined to York Road although it did come back to IE two weeks before Chrismtas for an exam and even managed a trip to Ballina on the IWT but is now back with NIR.

225 now in the ramps undergoing full overhaul.

Several of the orange 201s have been into the workshops lately for "full assesments", watch this space.

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

225 now in the ramps undergoing full overhaul.

Several of the orange 201s have been into the workshops lately for "full assesments", watch this space.

what would be the proposed work for the few orange 201s should they come back? are there potential freight contracts in the pipeline?

GM228

end of the road wrote: »

what would be the proposed work for the few orange 201s should they come back? are there potential freight contracts in the pipeline?

No new work - unlees the Biomass project gets back up and running (but that's unlikely).

Since more MkIVs returned to service and the Belmond there has been pressure on the 201 fleet, eventually the IWT (and possibly the DFDS/Timbers) will be strictly limited to 201 haulage meaning more 201s are required in service.

It probably wouldn't take a whole lot of work to re-engineer the orange 201s for push-pull. They'll need a fair bit of work anyway having lay idle for so long and acting as Christmas trees.

GM228

Karsini wrote: »

It probably wouldn't take a whole lot of work to re-engineer the orange 201s for push-pull. They'll need a fair bit of work anyway having lay idle for so long and acting as Christmas trees.

The only difference between the push-pull and non push-pull 201s is the drawgear and buffers (all 201s were delivered as non push-pull type - push-pull type was an inhouse mod), otherwise there is no other difference between them, it would be very simple to make them push-pull, but otherwise they need a lot of work, the only issue with returning them overall as with everyhing is costs.

goingnowhere

The PP gear is no great mystery

All 201's are wired up for PP, the door release buttons are fitted and the HEP panel has the selector for PP

The question are the buttons for show or is the correct wiring in place to overlay the door and PA down the AAR 27 system. The 201 in PP mode thinks it is just in multiple with another AAR locomotive with the trail valve set

GM228

goingnowhere wrote: »

The PP gear is no great mystery

All 201's are wired up for PP, the door release buttons are fitted and the HEP panel has the selector for PP

The question are the buttons for show or is the correct wiring in place to overlay the door and PA down the AAR 27 system. The 201 in PP mode thinks it is just in multiple with another AAR locomotive with the trail valve set

Yes the door controls etc are all wired correctly, there were no wiring etc mods made, as I said the only difference is the drawgear and buffers.

The original plan was to use all of them with the push-pull sets using the shackle as delivered, but they were modified with a buckeye coupler to reduce the effect of juddering when pushing a train with screw couplers.

GM228

Something different for tomorrow.

233 is scheduled to start working the Enterprise for the first time in several years following fitting of the MMI system from tomorrow.

Rootsblower

Interesting

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=113006&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

BlinkingLights

They might be better off replacing them entirely, at least a core group of them for express passenger service should be capable of 200kph. It's stupid not to at least have the MK4 fleet being planned to move to higher speed when the tracks and signalling eventually allow and when the coaches are already designed for it.

A few speed bursts on en route to cork would shave journey time, even if the whole route is not full speed.

Captain Chaos

Rootsblower wrote: »

Interesting

https://irl.eu-supply.com/app/rfq/publicpurchase_frameset.asp?PID=113006&B=ETENDERS_SIMPLE&PS=1&PP=ctm/Supplier/publictenders

That tender is out a good while now. Loco 230 will be the trail loco for the works and it's external body work repair is finished.

tabbey

Captain Chaos wrote: »

That tender is out a good while now. Loco 230 will be the trail loco for the works and it's external body work repair is finished.

Has it been re-engined etc?

Captain Chaos

tabbey wrote: »

Has it been re-engined etc?

Nope because it's being used as a test bed for the new EMD CAT engine or whatever Irish Rail decide to go with. More than likely will be the CAT option like the UK class 68s.

GM228

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Nope because it's being used as a test bed for the new EMD CAT engine or whatever Irish Rail decide to go with. More than likely will be the CAT option like the UK class 68s.

May change yet, 230s old engine is currently also being rebuilt.

It may no longer be the test bed due to various issues.

end of the road

GM228 wrote: »

May change yet, 230s old engine is currently also being rebuilt.

It may no longer be the test bed due to various issues.

if a re-engining happens, will the old engines be scrapped or sold?

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

Captain Chaos wrote: »

Nope because it's being used as a test bed for the new EMD CAT engine or whatever Irish Rail decide to go with. More than likely will be the CAT option like the UK class 68s.

May change yet, 230s old engine is currently also being rebuilt.

It may no longer be the test bed due to various issues.

Isnt 201 or 211 been examined?

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

if a re-engining happens, will the old engines be scrapped or sold?

It might not be possible to sell them because they don't meet Euro 6 requirements. So they'll probably be scrapped.

end of the road

Karsini wrote: »

It might not be possible to sell them because they don't meet Euro 6 requirements. So they'll probably be scrapped.

oh yeah they couldn't be sold to europe. that's a given.
they could be sold elsewhere though.
i would agree though they will probably be scrapped.

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Isnt 201 or 211 been examined?

Several of the stored 201s have been into the sheds in recent times for complete examinations which involed bogie removals, 201, 205 and 211 are the most recent to be checked.

GM228

Following on from 233 two weeks ago, 231 is due to start working the Enterprise from tomorrow following fitment of the MMI system.

That leaves just 216 to be done which will most likely be in the winter.