201 Class Locomotives

Tamper

http://chrisplayfair.smugmug.com/Travel/2012-Photos/September-2012/25163506_KKj2Ct#!i=2079520382&k=dzFMkkm

Would this be of any use to you?? They are using the couplers that the engines uses with the DeDe stock.....209 currently spare in Dublin...Was taken off the 0800 x Belfast this morning....

Captain Chaos

Tamper wrote: »

http://chrisplayfair.smugmug.com/Travel/2012-Photos/September-2012/25163506_KKj2Ct#!i=2079520382&k=dzFMkkm

Would this be of any use to you?? They are using the couplers that the engines uses with the DeDe stock..(Buckeye)...209 currently spare in Dublin...Was taken off the 0800 x Belfast this morning....

Thanks for that. The 201s use Dellner adapters for the DD stock not buckeyes. It looks like they fitted the EGV with a Dellner adapter for the DD stock end.

Solair

comradestalin wrote: »

Cookie Monster,

There are no questions to be answered regarding the Mk3. They were purchased in the early 1990s when the state had very little money. They were replaced in the mid 2000s when the state was flush with cash to spend on upgrading major public transport links. I don't really see what is hard to understand about that.

The Irish Rail MK3 fleet was built between 1984 and 1989 (mostly towards the early part of that). They were commercially launched in 1986. So, basically saw 23 years of service.

A significant % of the UK fleet also dates from that era, or just before it. Even though they were introduced in the 1970s in the UK, a lot of the fleet was built in the late 70s and into the 80s.

I get the impression the original idea was to replace Cork-Dublin with the MK4 fleet and cascade the MK3s to other services. But, when the funding came in for the 22000 DMUs, which to be honest, make a hell of a lot more sense on those routes, that the MK3s were left without a purpose.

The only thing I don't understand is why they couldn't refurbish maybe 1 train worth of them to expand the Enterprise fleet.

E.g. the old Cork-Dublin CityGold set could have been just given a re-vamp and it could have fitted in quite well with the Enterprise.

comradestalin

I don't think the problem is stock availability as the two companies have more serviceable stock than they need at the moment. IÉ must surely have surplus 22000s and Translink have about 10 more 4000 sets available than they need to meet their current timetable requirements.

I don't know why it is so damn hard for NIR/IÉ to make changes - of any kind - to the Enterprise (two years to get the gen vans going - pretty ridiculous), I guess the answer is the lack of government support.

end of the road

Solair wrote: »

the 22000 DMUs, which to be honest, make a hell of a lot more sense

their not far off idling on some routes to be honest, their capible of 100 mph? but can't get no where near that speed, yes they offer quicker stopping and starting times + quick turn arounds but they can't reach their full potential, their nice trains but sometimes i think buying the amount they did was a waste now as their operating short haul routes in some cases, they can't be configured for demand like loco hauled carriges, and no more services will probably be introduced, really the 2800s and 2700s should be operating short haul routes instead of 22000s but i have a feeling the 29s can cover most short haul routes out of dublin, the 2600s are operating out of cork, the 2800s are operating services out of limerick + other non-dublin commuter routes. the 2700s will suffer the same fate as the mark 3s. the mark 3s short service life and scrapping is a scandle but unfortunately it can't be undone. i believe irish rail should have been forced to focus on improving speeds before been given funding for new trains but we are where we are now.

comradestalin

Surely a 22000 can be configured just as easily as a set of carriages can - send another set from Inchicore and hook it up, problem solved ?

WRT the background, I suspect Irish Rail did not have any say in how the money was spent. The government said "we want the railways to have better carriages, go off and get quotes and tell us what the price is". While the gricers and so on yearn for the solid-built stock of yesteryear such as the Mk3s (and indeed the 80 class up here) the fact is that shiny new carriages with nice interiors are far better at attracting the public to use the railways. I travelled to Cork by train on a couple of occasions in 1999/2000 and each time it felt like a step down compared with the Enterprise. Note how patronage on the Enterprise jumped and stayed high in the years after its introduction despite hardened enthusiasts dismissing the DD stock as "rubbish". Likewise the new C3K trains in NI.

Richard Branson recognized this and as soon as he could he went out and specced shiny new Voyagers and Pendolinos to run his franchises with.

end of the road

comradestalin wrote: »

Surely a 22000 can be configured just as easily as a set of carriages can - send another set from Inchicore and hook it up, problem solved ?

they can only be in 3 and 6 car formations + 2 sets of 3 cars, their are some stations which can't take 6 cars but could take 5 or 4 but to do so will take either 3 car sets being split and reformed into the 4 or 5 car sets or selective door opening which would be better but isn't going to happen anytime soon.

comradestalin wrote: »

WRT the background, I suspect Irish Rail did not have any say in how the money was spent. The government said "we want the railways to have better carriages, go off and get quotes and tell us what the price is".

you could be right, anythings possible.

comradestalin wrote: »

While the gricers and so on yearn for the solid-built stock of yesteryear such as the Mk3s (and indeed the 80 class up here) the fact is that shiny new carriages with nice interiors are far better at attracting the public to use the railways. I travelled to Cork by train on a couple of occasions in 1999/2000 and each time it felt like a step down compared with the Enterprise. Note how patronage on the Enterprise jumped and stayed high in the years after its introduction despite hardened enthusiasts dismissing the DD stock as "rubbish". Likewise the new C3K trains in NI.

while true i suspect the average person wouldn't notice if the mark 3s for example were refurbished with new interior and painted a new colour. in fairness the carriges of yester year were more comfortable and in some ways built better and built to last. the 80 class were life expired? and the 450s apart from the main body shell?

comradestalin wrote: »

Richard Branson recognized this and as soon as he could he went out and specced shiny new Voyagers and Pendolinos to run his franchises with.

thats all well and good but Richard Branson is charged with running the services not with looking after the infrastructure, also the infrastructure or most of it which he runs his services on is capible of high speeds. in IE'S case they have to do both yet they fail to realise that people want the trains to be fast at a reasonable price, shiny new trains alone won't attract people to the railways

Hungerford

comradestalin wrote: »

While the gricers and so on yearn for the solid-built stock of yesteryear such as the Mk3s (and indeed the 80 class up here) the fact is that shiny new carriages with nice interiors are far better at attracting the public to use the railways.

The 80-class and the 450-class may have been solidly built - their sheer longevity is testament to that - but they offered a far inferior passenger experience to the C3Ks and the C4Ks. Neither were terribly comfortable plus their acceleration wasn't brilliant, meaning that commuter journeys were longer than they should have been. There was also the temperamental heating and the leaking roofs during the winter.

As someone who travelled on both during their final years, I would gladly take a C4K any day.

steamengine

As regards speeds, Rail here has been sitting on the remnants of its laurels for far too long. Enterprise journey times peaked at 2 hours 5 minutes in the early 1930's on the introduction of GNR's compound steam locomotives. Would it not be reasonable in 2012 that this journey should be now in the region of 90 minutes duration ?

As there has been no appreciable change in journey times for 80 years, and with the arrival of the motorways, there is now a situation of various coach companies snapping at the railways' heels, with comparable journey times and lower fares. Comfort and price while important won't be sufficient to save the day for rail - speeds must be upped, and soon, if Intercity rail is to remain viable here. The alternative is, settle permanently for mid 20th century journey times of e.g. approx 3 hours by bus/coach from Dublin to Cork. Heaven forbid :rolleyes:

corktina

it's around 100 or just over Dublin to Belfast. The GNRs time of just over 2 hours (average around 50 mph-ish) was very creditable. I imagine it was non-stop?

to do that distance in 1 hour and a half would mean an average of 67 mph or so plus stops which add a lot to the overall time. I don't think that is do-able without radical improvements in line speed and motive power.

comradestalin

I think the early GNR services were 2 hours and were non stop.

I seem to recall one or two services on the Enterprise timetable in 2000, shortly after Central-Central Junction was relaid and reopened, dropping from 2hr5 to 1hr55. I distinctly recall Ted Hesketh (slightly incredibly) attributing the 10 minute reduction to that refurbishment work.

(I have it in my head that the Enterprise almost always stopped at Lisburn, this does not seem to be the case now.)

The single biggest problem seems to be fast pathing on the Malahide-Connolly section, which must add a good 10-15 minutes to the journey. It is hard to foresee a future third road through here, sadly. Even adding a few passing loops around some of the DART stations does not look at all feasible, residential properties are snug up against the stations and the track pretty much all the way along the route.

steamengine

corktina wrote: »

it's around 100 or just over Dublin to Belfast. The GNRs time of just over 2 hours (average around 50 mph-ish) was very creditable. I imagine it was non-stop?

to do that distance in 1 hour and a half would mean an average of 67 mph or so plus stops which add a lot to the overall time.

Just shy of 60mph average - stops for customs at Dundalk and Goraghwood.
According to 'Patterson's GNR(I)' these runs in 1932 were the equivalent to a non-stop run of 115 minutes. The distance is 112.5 miles. The following year the schedule was eased back for economic reasons.

I don't think that is do-able without radical improvements in line speed and motive power.

Should have happened by now and could be ages before it does - if ever !!! :rolleyes:

corktina

obvious solution...build some more Compounds.

Losty Dublin

It's long been accepted that the majority of slow spots on the Dublin-Belfast services are north of the border. Until the NI DRD tackle this then the service won't be much faster than it is today. The main issues this side of the border are capacity issues in the Dublin area and the curve and viaduct at Drogheda; only 5 minutes of this is avoidable.

dowlingm

Losty - would it be fair to say a 22K would cover ground on a current Enterprise run faster overall? My thought is that between the bits up North and being stuck behind DART distributed traction might make up minutes here and minutes there where a 201 would have a shallower acceleration curve.

trellheim

Agree. from a lot of recent trips southbound once we get to Dundalk it rips along.

steamengine

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It's long been accepted that the majority of slow spots on the Dublin-Belfast services are north of the border. Until the NI DRD tackle this then the service won't be much faster than it is today. The main issues this side of the border are capacity issues in the Dublin area and the curve and viaduct at Drogheda; only 5 minutes of this is avoidable.

Fair enough, however 201's are capable of 100mph and they're limited to an overall track speed limit of 90mph up to the border. What is the reason for this ??? If 100 mph running exists on parts of the Cork route then why not on the Belfast route.

Losty Dublin

dowlingm wrote: »

Losty - would it be fair to say a 22K would cover ground on a current Enterprise run faster overall? My thought is that between the bits up North and being stuck behind DART distributed traction might make up minutes here and minutes there where a 201 would have a shallower acceleration curve.

It would make up maybe 5 minutes but mainly at Drogheda, Dundalk and Newry, the stations situated at higher speed sections. Again, the sections northwards would see minimal gains due to lower line speeds so the benefit wouldn't be there. A DMU would struggle on the Kellystown climb fuel wise compared to a 201 which can climb with a load at high speeds but this is down to the gear in a DMU working differently to a loco.

That said, a 22000 would lose capacity, notably in the high income grossing 1st Class seats so it would be a retrograde step in some respects.

steamengine

steamengine wrote: »

Fair enough, however 201's are capable of 100mph and they're limited to an overall track speed limit of 90mph up to the border. What is the reason for this ??? If 100 mph running exists on parts of the Cork route then why not on the Belfast route.

I suspect it's the HEP that limits the 201s to 90mph on the Enterprise. Could be wrong though.

Solair

Because the Enterprise coaches are only rated for 145 km/h !

It was a pretty low speed to design new coaches to run at.

The Cork coaches can run at 160km/h and with a minor tweak and the right locomotive/power cars, 200km/h

Captain Chaos

Karsini wrote: »

I suspect it's the HEP that limits the 201s to 90mph on the Enterprise. Could be wrong though.

No it's the track condition and the DD stock is 90mph limited anyway but has been tested up to 100mph.

Solair

It's very odd that something built in the 90s would be limited to that speed. What were they thinking with the specification ?!
It seriously limited the potential for making the service faster in the future.

Losty Dublin

steamengine wrote: »

Fair enough, however 201's are capable of 100mph and they're limited to an overall track speed limit of 90mph up to the border. What is the reason for this ??? If 100 mph running exists on parts of the Cork route then why not on the Belfast route.

The infrastrure of the line is the main reason for a 90PMH overall limit. Dublin Belfast has a lot of steep climbs and sharper curves whereas Dublin-Cork is mainly flat save for the gradual climbs in and out of the two terminal stations. That said, there are not that many 100MPH sections on the Dublin Cork line, it just has a better constuction overall.

Losty Dublin

Solair wrote: »

Because the Enterprise coaches are only rated for 145 km/h !

They are actually capable of 300KMH, believe it or not! They are pretty much the same as the Eurostar fleet but with a different bogie arrangement.

Solair

Losty Dublin wrote: »

They are actually capable of 300KMH, believe it or not! They are pretty much the same as the Eurostar fleet but with a different bogie arrangement.

They've a coach body design somewhat borrowed from a Eurostar, but that's where the similarity ends.

They're absolutely, definitely, not 300km/h capable.

The Eurostar has articulation the same mechanical layout as a TGV. That's a fairly radically different setup to a normal train.
For example, the coaches share bogies on most of the carriages.

All the Enterprise is is some Eurostar coach bodies attached to a normal low-speed bogie with none of the TGV technology.

Eurostar coach : http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/images/eurostar/eurohalf.jpg
Articulated section : http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6085/6070348730_b36dac7828_o.jpg

The Eurostar's in an entirely different league.

The MK4 shares design features with Spanish 350km/h trains too, but it's a very different beast!

The CAF Oaris : MK4's distant, much faster cousin : http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7142/6759876215_2db2c1122e_z.jpg (up to 350kmh/h)

In motoring terms, they're as different as a Renault Clio and a Renault - Lotus F1.

Losty Dublin

Solair wrote: »

They've a coach body design somewhat borrowed from a Eurostar, but that's where the similarity ends.

They're absolutely, definitely, not 300km/h capable.

The Eurostar has articulation the same mechanical layout as a TGV. That's a fairly radically different setup to a normal train.
For example, the coaches share bogies on most of the carriages.

All the Enterprise is is some Eurostar coach bodies attached to a normal low-speed bogie with none of the TGV technology.

Eurostar coach : http://www.trainweb.org/tgvpages/images/eurostar/eurohalf.jpg
Articulated section : http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6085/6070348730_b36dac7828_o.jpg

The Eurostar's in an entirely different league.

The MK4 shares design features with Spanish 350km/h trains too, but it's a very different beast!

The CAF Oaris : MK4's distant, much faster cousin : http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7142/6759876215_2db2c1122e_z.jpg (up to 350kmh/h)

In motoring terms, they're as different as a Renault Clio and a Renault - Lotus F1.

They are capable insofar that the bodywork has been proven capable to run at such a speed. Yes, the bogie set up, hauling powerhead and the track are different in these cases and this makes for a slower running speed here. There are several variables at play aside from bogies than dictate operational speeds; bodywork is the first of these that will determine how fast or slow they will run in service.

steamengine

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The infrastrure of the line is the main reason for a 90PMH overall limit. Dublin Belfast has a lot of steep climbs and sharper curves whereas Dublin-Cork is mainly flat save for the gradual climbs in and out of the two terminal stations. That said, there are not that many 100MPH sections on the Dublin Cork line, it just has a better constuction overall.

I see 100 mph running and a 90 minute journey time is already on Translink's wish list. What generally would be required track-wise to raise the present overall limit from 90 to 100 mph. Link

steamengine

comradestalin wrote: »

I think the early GNR services were 2 hours and were non stop.

I seem to recall one or two services on the Enterprise timetable in 2000, shortly after Central-Central Junction was relaid and reopened, dropping from 2hr5 to 1hr55. I distinctly recall Ted Hesketh (slightly incredibly) attributing the 10 minute reduction to that refurbishment work.

(I have it in my head that the Enterprise almost always stopped at Lisburn, this does not seem to be the case now.)

The single biggest problem seems to be fast pathing on the Malahide-Connolly section, which must add a good 10-15 minutes to the journey. It is hard to foresee a future third road through here, sadly. Even adding a few passing loops around some of the DART stations does not look at all feasible, residential properties are snug up against the stations and the track pretty much all the way along the route.

With smarter scheduling some of the DART obstructions could be sorted out. On occasions at Killester and elsewhere, I have noticed northbound DARTS preceding the Enterprise right at the time the Enterprise is due. You would think, logically, that the priority here would be reversed. Applying that to inbound DARTS then, would the application of smarter scheduling not be effective also. After all Enterprise movements are only every two hours. On other occasions I have seen the Enterprise clipping through Harmonstown at an estimated 60mph, as should be the case.

Losty Dublin

steamengine wrote: »

I see 100 mph running and a 90 minute journey time is already on Translink's wish list. What generally would be required track-wise to raise the present overall limit from 90 to 100 mph. Link

In short, a better route planning of local Dublin services would allow trains out and in quicker and would give up to 10 minutes. Ditto at the Belfast end, priority is needed for all services. To do much more will be prohibitively expensive as a lot of slow climbs, hills, bends, bridges/viaducts are what slows the services down, especially from Belfast to Portadown.

RonanM123

Anyone know whats the problem with the Mark 4 fleet. Its it lcoc or sets. Currently 2 sets have failed over the last 48 hours and many Cork services being replaced by ICR's today and a return service yesterday.

Hungerford

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Ditto at the Belfast end, priority is needed for all services.

Priority is given at the Belfast end already. Although Translink generally allow a local Portadown train to depart Central before the Enterprise, it runs via Great Victoria Street and stays in that station until the Enterprise has passed.

end of the road

Hungerford wrote: »

it runs via Great Victoria Street and stays in that station until the Enterprise has passed.

i thought all trains had to go via Great Victoria Street? i take it theirs another way they can go?

end of the road

end of the road wrote: »

i thought all trains had to go via Great Victoria Street? i take it theirs another way they can go?

There's a triangle junction outside Great Victoria Street that allows trains to bypass it. It also allows train sets to be turned the opposite direction if need be.

Losty Dublin

Hungerford wrote: »

Priority is given at the Belfast end already. Although Translink generally allow a local Portadown train to depart Central before the Enterprise, it runs via Great Victoria Street and stays in that station until the Enterprise has passed.

True, they do. At the same time they have a little less local traffic to work around plus a network that allows a little flexibility. A late passing Enterprise clogs up a lot of local trains on Dublin same corridor and it shows.

end of the road

so the enterprise stops at great victoria street as well hense why its given priority? or even with the triangle junction allowing trains to bypass it local trains can't leave until it has past?

Losty Dublin

end of the road wrote: »

so the enterprise stops at great victoria street as well hense why its given priority? or even with the triangle junction allowing trains to bypass it local trains can't leave until it has past?

No; Dublin trains terminate at Central. The local trains serve GVS.

Iolaire

@ End of the Road

In case you aren't familiar with the GVS layout, look at this map https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ll=54.587955,-5.94326&spn=0.015816,0.027809&t=k&z=15&source=gplus-ogsb and you can see the triangle to the south west of the station. Central is just off the map on the line to the right.

Local trains leaving Central, call at GVS which effectively leaves the mainline clear and Enterprise services then use this to head south. You are correct in stating that any local soutbound services are then stuck in GVS (or at least until the junction with the mainline) until Enterprise clears the block.

Hungerford

Iolaire wrote: »

Local trains leaving Central, call at GVS which effectively leaves the mainline clear and Enterprise services then use this to head south. You are correct in stating that any local soutbound services are then stuck in GVS (or at least until the junction with the mainline) until Enterprise clears the block.

The delay isn't that significant though as the approach to GVS is quite slow and the driver has to change ends to get the train back out of the station. So an Enterprise which was running behind a local train as it entered GVS would be miles clear before the local train got out of GVS.

end of the road

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Dublin trains terminate at Central

ah yeah i know that much all right.

dowlingm

Isn't there talk of returning Enterprise to GVS?

Losty Dublin

dowlingm wrote: »

Isn't there talk of returning Enterprise to GVS?

Unlikely as the platforms weren't suitable for the longer sets after the parish pumps got working.

Hungerford

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Unlikely as the platforms weren't suitable for the longer sets after the parish pumps got working.

The Enterprise can use GVS as is and has done so on occasion.

Anyway, NIR's ultimate plan is for the new Enterprise terminus to be GVS but this is apparently dependent on a remodelling of the station involving the building of a fifth platform and the reinstatement of the old third line between GVS and Adelaide. I presume that they would also have to enlarge the station as its too small to handle the traffic as is.

Losty Dublin

Hungerford wrote: »

The Enterprise can use GVS as is and has done so on occasion.

No they can't as it's not set up to properly service the longer sets.

Losty Dublin

Losty Dublin wrote: »

No they can't as it's not set up to properly service the longer sets.

I remember the odd time that an Enterprise set entered Connolly backwards after going via GVS; they had to turn the HEP off rather quickly as the 201 was under the roof.

Captain Chaos

Losty Dublin wrote: »

No they can't as it's not set up to properly service the longer sets.

It has happened quite a few times over the past year or so due to security alerts and the sets end up facing the wrong way.

Losty Dublin

Captain Chaos wrote: »

It has happened quite a few times over the past year or so due to security alerts and the sets end up facing the wrong way.

What's happening is is that the service lines for water, fuel etc are not set up in GVS as it was intended to be the terminal station and was duly fitted to work but for shorter sets as envisaged when tendered for. When the sets were ordered to be lengthened by politicians and the protests of IE and NIR were dismissed, the inevitable happened when a trial run was made into GVS and a full train wasn't able to be serviced safely. The work around is that a train can be turned on the triangle to service the full train; however there generally isn't time to reverse it and it is sent to Dublin wrong way and turned round again at Belfast when possible. It's very rare if ever these days that a set is sent into GVS for this reason but if they must they can use GVS albeit with this complication.

comradestalin

When I lived in Dublin 1999-2000 the Enterprise was diverted to GVS for three months over the summer while Central-Central Junction was relaid. Something may have changed since then but there were no obvious problems terminating the Enterprise there.

(as I recall the trainsets had to be slowly moved from GVS up through Crumlin and Antrim and back over Bleach Green to York Road whenever heavy maintenance was required ..)

I have to laugh at Translink's big plan to make GVS the main hub. It is of course the right decision, but it was also the right decision ten years ago when Translink instead chose to spend many millions gutting and refurbishing Central. Apparently, it was more important to be able to park buses on the site in the city centre than operate it as a railway terminus.

Jamie2k9

230 operated 12.35 Belfast-Connolly today, no EGV.

steamengine

231 on the 13.20 departure Enterprise from Connolly earlier today + EGV , passing Killester.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGjov6HirPA

[url=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGjov6HirPA[/url]

comradestalin

The 13:20 ex Connolly arrived in Belfast almost 20 minutes late. It seemed to crawl the whole way from Newry onwards.