mock corrections

happywithlife

hi all
got a letter in my inbox today telling us about the ordering procedure for the pre papers (i'm a sub in the school).
apparently we HAVE TO send the prepapers out to the company we chose to be corrected because "of tax implications" - ??????
i'm confused as to what this means and extremely annoyed - yes i have a large junior cert class especially, but i was prepared to put in the time and effort correcting their (and the leaving cert's class') pre's. i have used the prepaper companies before and always, without fail, found the standard of the corrections to be shockingly poor - plus they take forever to come back!
i correct hons leaving cert papers and coursework every year so am well aware of the mechanics of marking ----
will find out more about this tomorrow if i can (wasn't in the staffroom at break time today so missed an opportunity to find out more then) ---
but just wondering if anyone has come across this before??

Terri26

that cannot be true. A lot of schools and students could not afford it and the dept are hardly going to pay. I would love for it to be true so the students could get an outside opinion and it's just not me being a hard marker as they believe!

happywithlife

yeah i know it can't be true -- letter did state that it is costing 100euro, school is collecting it, so no need for teachers to be handling money.....

think its mad in the recession - its a rural vec school, and by comparsion (to be very sterotypical) last year i was in a more 'upmarket' girls school - not fee paying, but very big waiting lists etc....- and even they argued against sending them out for correcting due in part to the financial burden, this would present to some parents.

i just know i'll end up remarking them myself and will be waiting weeks to get them back too!!! :mad: and then trying to explain why my marks are different! arrgh !!!!

spurious

I'd like to hear the Principal justify charging parents that sort of money (for a mock exam which any experienced teacher can predict the results of) to the various political people on the local county council.

Outrageous - and to have an outside business make money from it at the same time?

rainbowtrout

happywithlife wrote: »

hi all
got a letter in my inbox today telling us about the ordering procedure for the pre papers (i'm a sub in the school).
apparently we HAVE TO send the prepapers out to the company we chose to be corrected because "of tax implications" - ??????
i'm confused as to what this means and extremely annoyed - yes i have a large junior cert class especially, but i was prepared to put in the time and effort correcting their (and the leaving cert's class') pre's. i have used the prepaper companies before and always, without fail, found the standard of the corrections to be shockingly poor - plus they take forever to come back!
i correct hons leaving cert papers and coursework every year so am well aware of the mechanics of marking ----
will find out more about this tomorrow if i can (wasn't in the staffroom at break time today so missed an opportunity to find out more then) ---
but just wondering if anyone has come across this before??

Who sent the letter?

Tigerandahalf

It's easy to see why they don't want you to correct them. They will make no money out of you!
They are charging €5/6 to correct a paper yet from what I've read are paying only €2 to each corrector.
This is something that the Croke Park agreement should take care of. I know teachers will give out to me but if savings need to be made, schools should be swapping papers to be corrected by other teachers. If there was a shortfall of correctors then extra correctors could be employed.
More than likely schools will end up correcting them themselves.

gaeilgebeo

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

It's easy to see why they don't want you to correct them. They will make no money out of you!
They are charging €5/6 to correct a paper yet from what I've read are paying only €2 to each corrector.
This is something that the Croke Park agreement should take care of. I know teachers will give out to me but if savings need to be made, schools should be swapping papers to be corrected by other teachers. If there was a shortfall of correctors then extra correctors could be employed.
More than likely schools will end up correcting them themselves.

A huge number of schools do correct their own mocks. Mine included. I see it as part of my job.

spurious

Many in our place set and correct their own, due to the poor quality of the mock companies' papers.

implausible

I swap mine with a friend (another experienced examiner). I don't trust those companies to do it properly and can't be dealing with the complaints about the cost.

It's mental that the school would dictate that all papers are sent away! Does no-one object to this?

2011abc

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

This is something that the Croke Park agreement should take care of.
More than likely schools will end up correcting them themselves.

They (WE!) will if the previous four posters have any say in the matter ....come on folks we're overloaded enough with extra duties for less pay without OFFERING to do more !Just because its a 'need' of the school (so is cleaning the toilets!) doesnt mean we should do it .Hey ,why dont we correct the state exams as a freebie too while we're at it ?!

mrboswell

spurious wrote: »

I'd like to hear the Principal justify charging parents that sort of money (for a mock exam which any experienced teacher can predict the results of) to the various political people on the local county council.

Outrageous - and to have an outside business make money from it at the same time?

AND the corrections are usually rubbish!

Better to get them done in the school if possible

rainbowtrout

2011abc wrote: »

They (WE!) will if the previous four posters have any say in the matter ....come on folks we're overloaded enough with extra duties for less pay without OFFERING to do more !Just because its a 'need' of the school (so is cleaning the toilets!) doesnt mean we should do it .Hey ,why dont we correct the state exams as a freebie too while we're at it ?!

Because they're your students and you want to provide them with a fair assessment so they can make a somewhat informed choice about what level to take for Junior Cert/Leaving Cert taking all factors including exam performance into account?

In my school we send everything away, decision is made by management, we have no say in what company is used for the papers and we do not get to see the papers beforehand. (I know it's easy enough to get around that). They do it so that teachers wouldn't be teaching with a bias towards the mock, e.g. the poetry question is on Plath, so the teacher tells their class to learn Plath for the mock and spends the week revising it. Some teachers do behave in this way. Of course the downside to all of this is the variable standard of paper and correction. I usually go back through my classes mocks when they come back and end up re-correcting many of them because they're not up to scratch, so I may as well have done them myself anyway.

So I wouldn't have any huge issue in correcting my own classes papers if needs be. Yes I'm busy, but while the mocks are on most teachers do have a bit more time to get stuff done. Certainly we have to supervise mocks while they're taking place (over 2 weeks in my school) and we're not supposed to be doing anything else while supervising to provide proper exam conditions, but the number of classes to be prepared for that period of time is also reduced so the time could be spend correcting mocks.

Many schools set and correct their own mocks as the norm. Mocks do not have to be provided by schools and some schools don't run them at all. Maybe you'll refuse to correct Christmas tests next year as well because you're overloaded?

evolving_doors

Tax implications me h0le

If I were you (AND permanent!!) I'd just ignore the letter and treat my teaching strategies as my responsibility, not some joe's outside the school.

Or just go the whole hog and make the paper yourself too (depending on your subject dept head's permission too!), cite some reason or other e.g. that you wanted to set your own paper to focus the students into particular areas as the stuff you'd seen on the mocks samples had been covered in class tests previously.

Assessment for Learning isn't just for students, esp. for mocks I would really want to know where every student is at for all parts of the course, a mark on it's own tells me very little about a students learning (or my teaching!).

P.S. Tax implications me h0le

happywithlife

hi all - update is...

we have to chose one of the private papers, no option of making out our own afaik

they must be sent away

or

i must get someone else within my vec to correct it, but they must be willing to submit their payroll no so that they can be taxed on the corrections they will be paid for.... (not entirely sure on this option, but think its the school would pay them for the corrections)
i don't have any friends within my vec structure though that i know have adequate marking experience.

so far, i have been told i cannot correct them myself

but haven't met the principal yet - but have a couple of classes off tomorrow, so hopefully will sort it then.

i wouldn't stress too much over the junior certs - but i've only a small leaving cert class and would rather correct them myself. i personally have no problems doing this without pay - i do feel that exam preparation is an integral part of my job as a teacher, and i see the pres as part of that preparation.
am hoping the principal will agree to my marking the leaving certs myself, if i agree to keep it quite, esp as i have a small class

gaeilgegrinds1

I correct all my own, always did. Our kids or parents could not afford it even in the good times. I corrected for a company before, all I'll say is we were not urged to put much work into it and got paid €2 a paper...despite the fact it was about €7 for each candidate to pay for this service. I'd love to be the person in the middle pocketing the difference! Actually no I wouldn't cos they provide a crap service!

Millem

Can't understand how their would be tax implications, our students do not pay any money for their mocks, the cost of the papers are taken out of the subject departments budget (some departments will make up their own mocks from previous exam questions) and teachers correct the mocks during their mid term for free! To be honest in the last school i worked in they were sent away to be corrected but it took them sooo long to be sent back to us, they were fine however I have heard from other teachers that they were badly marked.

happywithlife

millem,
the tax implications is because the school is collecting 100euro from each student for the mocks - this will be used to pay for the mock paper and for corrections - be that they are corrected by a mock company or by somebody on payroll within my vec - if i go with the latter option, then they would be paid by the school and obviously would be subject to tax for these earnings. (principal is very by the book)
further update is i can correct my own leaving certs as i have a small class anyway and principal knows i do a lot of work with the sec so i made my argument and won the junior cert classes will be sent away though...

spurious

happywithlife wrote: »

millem,
the tax implications is because the school is collecting 100euro from each student for the mocks -<snip>

There would be absolute war within our VEC if they even suggested collecting such a large amount of money from children for a 'pretend exam' where many of them are deemed unable to afford to pay for the real one.

Are you a DEIS school?

Millem

Happywithlife, In your school, do students pay €100 for their mocks and if teachers correct them they get extra money (€100 - cost of papers?) or you could opt to get a company to correct them?

happywithlife

i'm only subbing in the school but no its not DEIS

and yeah i'm shocked that a) its such a large amt and b) no parents seem to be kicking up about it!
i mean they are paying for cao applications this week as well...

as far as i know the 100 covers the cost of ordering the prepapers and having them corrected by the mock companies or by another teacher who is willing to pay tax on what they will earn from correcting the papers...

gaeilgebeo

The practice of teachers "exchanging" their classes papers to correct and charging the students is disgraceful!

Parents who don't ring in to complain probably know no better.
Parents should not have to fork out €100 or more for mock exams!

happywithlife

gaeilgebeo
just to clarify,
the school is not charging students and then allowing teachers to 'swap' papers between themselves and then pocketing the money.
the teachers who take on another teacher's class prepapers for correction, get paid (and taxed) to do so. now i don't know the rate - but i presume its along the lines of what the mock companies charge
i personally have indicated i am willing to correct my own class without expecting payment because quite frankly i believe that that service is part of my job.
i was simply astounded at the practice and that no parents are complaining (to my knowledge anyway). now that i've been given the go ahead to correct my own class' papers, the initial reason for my post here has been resolved. so all good in my camp

gaeilgebeo

happywithlife wrote: »

gaeilgebeo
just to clarify,
the school is not charging students and then allowing teachers to 'swap' papers between themselves and then pocketing the money.
the teachers who take on another teacher's class prepapers for correction, get paid (and taxed) to do so. now i don't know the rate - but i presume its along the lines of what the mock companies charge
i personally have indicated i am willing to correct my own class without expecting payment because quite frankly i believe that that service is part of my job.
i was simply astounded at the practice and that no parents are complaining (to my knowledge anyway). now that i've been given the go ahead to correct my own class' papers, the initial reason for my post here has been resolved. so all good in my camp

Apologies if you thought I was referring to you/your school. I was making a point about this practice which is not uncommon. I too correct my own mock papers.

Now in your own case, the teachers in your school who get paid to correct mocks, who pays them? The school? So it comes out of the school budget which is not part of paying teachers extra money! Disgraceful.

pjfogarty

Mock paper companies are an absolute joke.They are making money off students for doing little or no work.They pay teachers pittens to correct them.If a teacher has an interest in their students then they will correct their own to gain an insight into where students are having difficulty.Thousands of euro from each school is spent on these mock exams.And then we have to fundraise for a few euro for other expenses.It doesnt make sense to waste money like this.I dont want someone else correcting my papers as i will have to check anyways.If every student.Last yr 59,000 sat the leaving and 56,000 sat the junior cert.If each student spends 100 on the mocks,the for L.C thats a spend of nearly 6 million euro.So for L.C,anywhere between 3 and 6 million euro is likely being spent.JOKE

dambarude

There's a very ill informed debate on mocks on Liveline now if anybody wants to listen back to it...

Pwpane

My students get regular homework and regular exams. Their exams are based on Junior or Leaving Cert standard as appropriate. I set and correct their homework and their exams so I know what their weaknesses are and fine tune my teaching in response. I also report formally to parents on my students five times a year, as well as informally by comments on their homework, and more if they want to see me.

I don't need Mock exams to inform me of their weaknesses or of where they are in their studies.

The students want the Mock exams.

They want an outsider's opinion of the standard and of whether they can reach it.

They want the challenge of facing the unknown (in terms of questions and marking) to do a dry run for June.

In my opinion, this is entirely external to my work as a teacher as I have already taught, tested and reported. Mocks have traditionally been paid for as they were external to the school for the above reasons.

In my opinion, Mocks are a huge waste of time towards the end of the course when they have the CAO, orals and practicals, and end-of-year celebrations on their minds.

I would have strong objections to being asked to set and correct Mock exams as well as house exams without being paid. I might however consider it if Christmas exams were abolished for Junior and Leaving Cert classes.

gaeilgebeo

Pwpane wrote: »

My students get regular homework and regular exams. Their exams are based on Junior or Leaving Cert standard as appropriate. I set and correct their homework and their exams so I know what their weaknesses are and fine tune my teaching in response. I also report formally to parents on my students five times a year, as well as informally by comments on their homework, and more if they want to see me.

I don't need Mock exams to inform me of their weaknesses or of where they are in their studies.

The students want the Mock exams.

They want an outsider's opinion of the standard and of whether they can reach it.

They want the challenge of facing the unknown (in terms of questions and marking) to do a dry run for June.

In my opinion, this is entirely external to my work as a teacher as I have already taught, tested and reported. Mocks have traditionally been paid for as they were external to the school for the above reasons.

In my opinion, Mocks are a huge waste of time towards the end of the course when they have the CAO, orals and practicals, and end-of-year celebrations on their minds.

I would have strong objections to being asked to set and correct Mock exams as well as house exams without being paid. I might however consider it if Christmas exams were abolished for Junior and Leaving Cert classes.

I don't mind correcting the mocks. I do see it as part of my job and there is a huge difference in class tests and mock exams. A student can learn off a set question to do a 25 minute class test no problem. Sit them down to do 12 questions on 2 papers and it's a completely different story. I don't think small class tests are the same as sitting a full exam. I also think that the mocks can be the kick up the rear that some of them need!

As for Junior and Leaving Certs doing Christmas tests ; this does not happen in the school I teach in and many others.

Postgrad10

On a separate note , did anyone who applied to correct mocks hear back from the company's ?

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Pwpane wrote: »

My students get regular homework and regular exams. Their exams are based on Junior or Leaving Cert standard as appropriate. I set and correct their homework and their exams so I know what their weaknesses are and fine tune my teaching in response. I also report formally to parents on my students five times a year, as well as informally by comments on their homework, and more if they want to see me.

I don't need Mock exams to inform me of their weaknesses or of where they are in their studies.

The students want the Mock exams.

They want an outsider's opinion of the standard and of whether they can reach it.

They want the challenge of facing the unknown (in terms of questions and marking) to do a dry run for June.

In my opinion, this is entirely external to my work as a teacher as I have already taught, tested and reported. Mocks have traditionally been paid for as they were external to the school for the above reasons.

In my opinion, Mocks are a huge waste of time towards the end of the course when they have the CAO, orals and practicals, and end-of-year celebrations on their minds.

I would have strong objections to being asked to set and correct Mock exams as well as house exams without being paid. I might however consider it if Christmas exams were abolished for Junior and Leaving Cert classes.

I don't mind correcting the mocks. I do see it as part of my job and there is a huge difference in class tests and mock exams. A student can learn off a set question to do a 25 minute class test no problem. Sit them down to do 12 questions on 2 papers and it's a completely different story. I don't think small class tests are the same as sitting a full exam. I also think that the mocks can be the kick up the rear that some of them need!

As for Junior and Leaving Certs doing Christmas tests ; this does not happen in the school I teach in and many others.

delta_bravo

Postgrad10 wrote: »

On a separate note , did anyone who applied to correct mocks hear back from the company's ?

Applied to DEB and examcraft. DEB rang me back 10 mins later to say they only take on teachers with 3+ years teaching experience. No word from examcraft. This was about 3 weeks ago.

Postgrad10

Same response from DEB delta_bravo. At least they had very good manners to tell us. I'd have thought at least the same from examcraft . Not looking great as Mocks have started .

delta_bravo wrote: »

Postgrad10 wrote: »

On a separate note , did anyone who applied to correct mocks hear back from the company's ?

Applied to DEB and examcraft. DEB rang me back 10 mins later to say they only take on teachers with 3+ years teaching experience. No word from examcraft. This was about 3 weeks ago.