How high will fuel go this year?

mazdamps

NIMAN wrote: »

We need to discover oil off our coast, and keep it for ourselves!

Wouldn't matter anyway.

EU wants every country in and around the same price, they don't want a gulf in prices.

Look at the likes of Poland, Slovakia etc.

There fuel prices are sky high compared to wages.

Petrol in Slovakia is 1.65 a litre like here and they get wages of 140 euro a week for normal workers, like retail, factories etc

It wasn't always like that, EU don't want x country selling at 60 cent a litre and y country selling at 1.60 a litre.

As long as prices are going up in germany/brussels they will go up here too.

antoobrien

mazdamps wrote: »

As long as prices are going up in germany/brussels they will go up here too.

It's less to do with that than:
a) the EU is against subsidizing things
b) it's a tax cash cow that very few can complain about

The real reason why having our own oil wouldn't make a jot of difference is that we wouldn't be able to set our own prices - the market would. So we'd have to sell to our own refineries at market prices (assuming we could refine all the required oil).

It might affect the pump price as the amount of revnue from selling our own oil would reduce the amount of excise required (not likely, ASTI, INTO, SIPTU et al will strike if they don't get it all)

Dannyboy83

Finance Minister Michael Noonan has said Fianna Fáil are living in "economic dreamland" after the party proposed a 5c-per-litre reduction in fuel prices.

Mr Noonan said the move would take €150m out of the economy.

Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/noonan-ff-fuel-cuts-proposal-from-economic-dreamland-548770.html#ixzz1swyrqEJa

Confirmation that the government are happy to let fuel rise over €2 per litre.

Phil h 1

The main reason for the cost of living rises are the high cost of fuel and our wonderful government can't see that !! So they will be happy to just collect the revenue and do nothing

twistyj

the topaz across the road from me here in limerick is petrol €1.70 - diesel €1.60 :mad:

twistyj

I wont be suprised if it hits €2 by August

NakedNNettles

Phil h 1 wrote: »

The main reason for the cost of living rises are the high cost of fuel and our wonderful government can't see that !! So they will be happy to just collect the revenue and do nothing

You really don't get it do you?

You think the Irish are the only ones using oil from some limitless well. :pac:

Try to think a bit more globally.

ardmacha

I wont be suprised if it hits €2 by August

Perhaps you should trade oil futures then, if you know something everyone else doesn't.

Phil h 1

You don't seem to get my point ! The amount of tax we are paying on a liter of fuel is outrageous at a time when the so called government are supposed to be trying to keep people in work. The cost to someone like myself who is self employed and out looking for work everyday is crippling me. I can't claim dole so it's very hard to keep going

WallyGUFC

How do you propose the Government raise taxes then? I find Fianna Fáil's latest stunt to be particularly galling. The sad thing, Irish people have such short memories that they'll jump on this 5c per litre cheaper bandwagon and heeeey presto, FF are back in when the next election comes round.

Phil h 1

They would collect more taxes by creating jobs and keeping people in work !! No country has ever taxed their way out of rescission because it just doesn't work.At the moment it's like trying to get blood out of a stone. People can not give what they haven't got. I would rather vote the Jehovah Witnesses in before ever voting for any Fina Fail Party minister.

skafish

Interesting to see the flucations in the price of diesel and petrol since the last post.
Appearently, the current surge in prices is down to panic buying by traders following on from Israels threat to attack Iran.
I wonder if America will flex its mussel in responce to this, and force Israel to back down? I can't imagine Obama wnats increasing oil prices adding to tha US financial woes with the election looming.

Any thoughts?

antoobrien

skafish wrote: »

Interesting to see the flucations in the price of diesel and petrol since the last post.
Appearently, the current surge in prices is down to panic buying by traders following on from Israels threat to attack Iran.
I wonder if America will flex its mussel in responce to this, and force Israel to back down? I can't imagine Obama wnats increasing oil prices adding to tha US financial woes with the election looming.

Any thoughts?

We had this fear twice already this year with Syria. Personally I think that it has more to do with the drop in the price of the Euro vs USD. The current $ price of Brent crude is only $2.37 over the average price for the year. The peak price was $126.2 (=€94.48 @ 1.3083).

Taking the exchange rate into account, the current Euro price for oil is €92.53. If the exchange rates had remained stable, the current price would be €87.36.

Dave!

Saw 1.70 for unleaded on the N11 just after the M50

doc_17

1.72 for unleaded all over Donegal

Tea drinker

skafish wrote: »

Interesting to see the flucations in the price of diesel and petrol since the last post.
Appearently, the current surge in prices is down to panic buying by traders following on from Israels threat to attack Iran.
I wonder if America will flex its mussel in responce to this, and force Israel to back down? I can't imagine Obama wnats increasing oil prices adding to tha US financial woes with the election looming.

Any thoughts?

Wasn't this the "threat" debunked as actually copied from an Israeli discussion board (fresh I think it's called) and nothing to do with a looming attack plan at all? I see the guy is denying this, but it's also possible to make a little money on creating a few swings.

Paid €1.71 at the pumps for unleaded yesterday in Dublin, 52% of which goes straight to the exchequer in tax and duty. Also looking forward to paying my "Road Tax", Insurance and NCT all at the end of next month.

Jesus, drivers in Ireland are getting a raw deal...:(

average_runner

Country is screwed so taxes arent going down!!!


We are in for a tougher 10 years than we had in the last 5 years!:mad:

average_runner

average_runner wrote: »

Country is screwed so taxes arent going down!!!
We are in for a tougher 10 years than we had in the last 5 years!:mad:

Well the "low hanging fruit" (horrible phrase) is all gone. There have to be more cuts and tax hikes to make the numbers work, but anywhere that can be taxed or cut without huge impact and furore has already been hit. The decisions made in the next few years will be incredibly contentious, and the precedent for civil disobedience has been set by the widespread non-payment of the household tax, so i would expect to see more protest and refusals to pay other new taxes.

Ironically, cars are a thing that people either use or don't use, which can be taxed regardless of the economic circumstances we're in. Over and above non-essential journeys, which most people have largely curbed already, everybody has a minimum level of fuel they need per week/month for essential journeys and they will buy it regardless of price. Accordingly, if there are shortfalls/refusals to pay taxes in other areas, we can realistically expect to see rises in things like petrol and diesel, as well as all the other taxes associated with driving to make up for it.

And that's in addition to all the gazumping that OPEC are going to be doing over the next decade or two as we march toward peak oil. I can see things like smart cars and electric cars becoming more and more popular over the next while, just out of pure necessity.

antoobrien

Deleted User wrote: »

And that's in addition to all the gazumping that OPEC are going to be doing over the next decade or two as we march toward peak oil. I can see things like smart cars and electric cars becoming more and more popular over the next while, just out of pure necessity.

Forget about electric cars, they're a red herring. The range is terrible (less than 200km for most of the "affordable" cars) and the batteries are expensive (renault have a renting option, but it's renault so there's no need to take it seriously) costing approx half the value of the car and currently only have a 5 year lifespan. There's also the charge time, several hours to get a full charge with an 80% fast charge taking about 20 minutes (hope there isn't a queue at the charger).

There's a lot research required to make e-cars practical for anything other than an urban runabout and status symbol.

Personally I like the idea of investing in hydrogen technologies a lot more i.e. fuel cells. There have been some recent breakthroughs in hydrogen storage promise to make fuels cells more practical (it doesn't have to be stored in a liquid state - which also makes it a hell of a lot safer).

antoobrien

antoobrien wrote: »

There's a lot research required to make e-cars practical for anything other than an urban runabout and status symbol.

I agree, but we've never had the imperative we have now to start taking that research seriously, and until now a strategy for the infrastructure needed to sustain them on our streets hasn't had to enter into the consciousness of government agencies, city planning officials, etc, etc.

For example charging while you park in a public car park space, or near a lamp post, or in any public building, etc, etc. They are all access points to the mains grid after all.

Besides, what's wrong with urban runabouts? Many people make most of their journeys on short hops to work, school, shops etc. Maybe e-cars are not yet viable for an outright replacement for a single car family, but I can see a day when many 2 car households have a city runabout electric car for most daily journeys, and keep a small petrol car in the driveway for long trips, backup, and emergencies.

I'm not suggesting they are going to solve our fuel crisis in a single stroke, but i do think they will increasingly have a place in modern life. Petrol is going to rise and rise and rise until it's gone. At what point do traditional cars simply become a luxury that average salaries can't sustain?

A lot of big names are backing the future of electric cars now, and even bigger ones will do when the average gas price goes above $5/gal at the pumps in the USA, which is not too far off. Americans are currently paying the equivalent of about 70-75 cent per litre at the moment, (not much by our standards) and even that is making them see red. Something has to give, and i think e-cars will make sense for a lot of people, if the necessary support is there to help them make the transition.

antoobrien

Deleted User wrote: »

Besides, what's wrong with urban runabouts? Many people make most of their journeys on short hops to work, school, shops etc. Maybe e-cars are not yet viable for an outright replacement for a single car family, but I can see a day when many 2 car households have a city runabout electric car for most daily journeys, and keep a small petrol car in the driveway for long trips, backup, and emergencies.

Impractical for anything but this - the kind of people that this is suited to are people that arguably should be using public transport as it is.

Deleted User wrote: »

A lot of big names are backing the future of electric cars now

I'm not so sure about that, the kind of money they're putting in looks more like a hedge. Realistically they need to be doing twice what's currently being invested.

Solair

antoobrien wrote: »

Forget about electric cars, they're a red herring. The range is terrible (less than 200km for most of the "affordable" cars) and the batteries are expensive (renault have a renting option, but it's renault so there's no need to take it seriously) costing approx half the value of the car and currently only have a 5 year lifespan. There's also the charge time, several hours to get a full charge with an 80% fast charge taking about 20 minutes (hope there isn't a queue at the charger).

There's a lot research required to make e-cars practical for anything other than an urban runabout and status symbol.

Personally I like the idea of investing in hydrogen technologies a lot more i.e. fuel cells. There have been some recent breakthroughs in hydrogen storage promise to make fuels cells more practical (it doesn't have to be stored in a liquid state - which also makes it a hell of a lot safer).

I wouldn't say they're a red-herring as much as they're a 'work-in-progress'.

A good medium-term solution may be a hybrid with a petrol engine for long-distance driving and primarily using electric propulsion for shorter journeys.
There's a plug-in Toyota Prius already available on the E-Car scheme that basically does that.

Electric cars still need a major break-through in battery technology though, which will probably eventually happen, but they are FAR from 'there' yet.

antoobrien

antoobrien wrote: »

Impractical for anything but this - the kind of people that this is suited to are people that arguably should be using public transport as it is.

Lol. Yeah, if we had any. Private money will fund e-car research. Private money will market them. Private money will buy, fuel, and run them, but public money funds public transport.

You'll see the M50 bumper to bumper with electric cars before you'll see an efficient, properly funded, properly integrated public transport system in Ireland.

antoobrien wrote: »

I'm not so sure about that, the kind of money they're putting in looks more like a hedge. Realistically they need to be doing twice what's currently being invested.

Agreed on that point. I have a feeling a lot of our info is coming from the same sources and perspectives. I think they are just dipping their toes in the water right now, but i do think their interest will ramp up as oil becomes less and less economical and e-cars start to look like a better idea from a consumer point of view.

Lantus

antoobrien wrote: »

Personally I like the idea of investing in hydrogen technologies a lot more i.e. fuel cells. There have been some recent breakthroughs in hydrogen storage promise to make fuels cells more practical (it doesn't have to be stored in a liquid state - which also makes it a hell of a lot safer).

The storage was never really an issue. However, the energy required to extract hydrogen is. It's an incredibly innefficient process and compared to fossil fuels as they currently stand doesn't add up.

Maybe one day we can extract it without the huge energy input, but until we do we are only fooling ourselves that it represents a viable alterative.

antoobrien

Lantus wrote: »

The storage was never really an issue.

Considering it has to be stored in liquid form and takes a lot of space, yeah it's a problem. There's also the minor tendency to combust in the presence of O2, which complicates the storage issue.

Deleted User wrote: »

Lol. Yeah, if we had any. Private money will fund e-car research. Private money will market them. Private money will buy, fuel, and run them, but public money funds public transport.

No need to be facetious, PT here is not nearly as bad as it made out. The problem is that we expect a taxi system not a mass transit system.

Solair wrote: »

I wouldn't say they're a red-herring as much as they're a 'work-in-progress'.

They've been a work in progress for almost as long as the fuel cell.

I'm sceptical about ecars for a reason - I've ran the figures.

For a point of reference, here's the figures from my car for the past year.
2005 Ford Focus 4 door, 1.4l petrol.
Distance travelled 13,100km
Fuel 1000l
Cost €1589 (€132/month average cost)
Motor tax €358
The Fluence ZE has removable batteries, which you rent at €82 per month. It has a (lab) range of 185km

Now lets say that I decide to buy a new car in the morning.
| 1.6l P ford Focus| 1.6l D Ford Focus |Fluence Ze
Base Cost |19,865 | 22,185 | 21,610*
Battery Rental | 0 | 0 | €82/month
Tax | 225** | 160***| 157
Fuel efficiency | 10.2c/km (a) | 6.72 c/km (b)| 3.3c/km (c)
Cost for year 13,100km (d) | €1561.2 | €880 | €1573.3


* Includes 5,000 Government grant
** CO2 emissions 136g/km per price list
*** CO2 emissions 117g/km per price list
(a) 6l/100km @ 1.70/l Combined urban/rural mix per price list
(b) 4.2l/100km@ 1.60/l Combined urban/rural mix per price list
(c) 22 kwh for 185km @15c/kwh
(d) Includes Motor tax and battery rental costs
(e) 157 + (82*12) + 432.3
1.4l Ford Focus Petrol
Range 700km+

So the ecar is a bust, even if you've got your own generation capability or are on a nightsaver tarriff.

BrianD3

antoobrien wrote: »

Considering it has to be stored in liquid form and takes a lot of space, yeah it's a problem. There's also the minor tendency to combust in the presence of O2, which complicates the storage issue.



No need to be facetious, PT here is not nearly as bad as it made out. The problem is that we expect a taxi system not a mass transit system.



They've been a work in progress for almost as long as the fuel cell.

I'm sceptical about ecars for a reason - I've ran the figures.

For a point of reference, here's the figures from my car for the past year.
2005 Ford Focus 4 door, 1.4l petrol.
Distance travelled 13,100km
Fuel 1000l
Cost €1589 (€132/month average cost)
Motor tax €358
The Fluence ZE has removable batteries, which you rent at €82 per month. It has a (lab) range of 185km

Now lets say that I decide to buy a new car in the morning.
| 1.6l P ford Focus| 1.6l D Ford Focus |Fluence Ze
Base Cost |19,865 | 22,185 | 21,610*
Battery Rental | 0 | 0 | €82/month
Tax | 225** | 160***| 157
Fuel efficiency | 10.2c/km (a) | 6.72 c/km (b)| 3.3c/km (c)
Cost for year 13,100km (d) | €1561.2 | €880 | €1573.3


* Includes 5,000 Government grant
** CO2 emissions 136g/km per price list
*** CO2 emissions 117g/km per price list
(a) 6l/100km @ 1.70/l Combined urban/rural mix per price list
(b) 4.2l/100km@ 1.60/l Combined urban/rural mix per price list
(c) 22 kwh for 185km @15c/kwh
(d) Includes Motor tax and battery rental costs
(e) 157 + (82*12) + 432.3
1.4l Ford Focus Petrol
Range 700km+

So the ecar is a bust, even if you've got your own generation capability or are on a nightsaver tarriff.

22 kwh @ 15 cent per kwh for 185 km works out at 1.78 cent per km, not 3.3 cent per km

You do well below average mileage - others who do higher mileage can take greater advantage of the low "fuel" cost of an EV.

Most who buy ecars will charge them at the nightrate which I believe is 9 cent per kwh.

The battery leasing costs for the Renault Fluence for the first two years are zero.

The ecar may be bust for you - but for someone using nightrate electricity, doing average mileage, using the correct figure for cost per km and taking account of the 2 year free battery lease, the picture may be quite different.

antoobrien

BrianD3 wrote: »

22 kwh @ 15 cent per kwh for 185 km works out at 1.78 cent per km, not 3.3 cent per km

How did you come up with 1.78? Never mind the 185km range is a theoretical figure, when road tested in the US the Nissan Leaf came out at about half its lab range when you did things like turn on aircon and heating, ran it in stop/start traffic, so I'll stick with my 3.3c thanks.

BrianD3 wrote: »

You do well below average mileage

Actually that depends on who you believe. AA roadwatch have it at 12,000km, with large regional variances. So 13,100 is well lower than average?

The AA predicts a drop in the quality of living for many during 2012 as a direct result of fuel prices particularly for motorists who will clock up an above average annual mileage. “While an average motorist will do roughly 12,000 km/pa this does vary quite considerably between rural and urban areas,” says Faughnan. “There’s a vast difference between average mileages in Offaly and Dublin for example and this is really reflected in the desperate feedback we’re getting from motorists.”
An online poll of close to 20,000 motorists carried out by the AA earlier this month identifies Offaly, Carlow and Roscommon motorists respectively as having the highest percentage of motorists to clock up more than 24,000km/pa which is twice the national average. Half of the Offaly motorists polled for example indicated that their average mileage is in excess of 24,000km per annum. While 47% of Carlow motorists and 46% of Roscommon motorists polled indicated the same.
On the other hand, at 14.2% Dublin by far has the highest percentage of motorists who do less than 8,000 km/pa. After this, albeit quite a way behind, are drivers in Waterford (8%), Kerry (7%) and Cork (7%).

BrianD3 wrote: »

Most who buy ecars will charge them at the nightrate which I believe is 9 cent per kwh.

Only if you have nightsaver (which is actually 2 meters), otherwise it's the 24h rate.

BrianD3 wrote: »

The battery leasing costs for the Renault Fluence for the first two years are zero.

How long will that offer last? Wait - it's a bleedin' renault, who in their right minds would buy one?

BrianD3 wrote: »

The ecar may be bust for you - but for someone using nightrate electricity, doing average mileage, using the correct figure for cost per km and taking account of the 2 year free battery lease, the picture may be quite different.

As shown earlier average mileage is 12,000km
The vast majority of Irish households do not (yet) have access to night rate electricity (which is currently only available through "nightsaver" meters, which are not that common and I've only ever seen them in apartment blocks which will complicate the issue).
The two year battery offer is grand, if you only intend on keeping the car two years - most people I know don't change the car that often (maybe 10% of car owners I know, but since we're on the subject of me I have my car for over 4 years).

Dannyboy83

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/ff-calls-on-government-to-follow-french-fuel-tax-cuts-563934.html

Fianna Fáil Spokesperson on Transport Timmy Dooley said today that the Government should follow the French example of cutting the tax on fuel.

"With the price of petrol set to hit as much as €1.80 in the coming weeks, it is blindingly obvious that something must be done," said Deputy Dooley.

"Fianna Fáil has consistently called for action by the Government on this, hard pressed families cannot take any more. The price of fuel is at an all-time high, and there seems to be no end in sight to the petrol hikes.

"If it is good enough for the French Government to introduce temporary measures to halt the spiralling costs by lowering taxes, why can’t our Government do likewise?

Did anyone see the Irish Daily Mail today?
They are suggesting €1.80 per litre by September and €2 per litre by December.

When I started this thread, I was asking if we'd see €1.70 per litre this year.
We're already passing that.

Sheer mentalness.

antoobrien

antoobrien wrote: »

No need to be facetious, PT here is not nearly as bad as it made out. The problem is that we expect a taxi system not a mass transit system.

Firstly, thank you for the comparison figures in your post, very informative.

Secondly, there isn't anything wrong with being facetious about what is genuinely a laughable matter, which is what i consider our public transport system to be. We have had generations of underinvestment, dreadful planning, and complete lack of service integration. Our PTS is a complete and utter shambles by comparison with any country anywhere near us in OECD terms, and when you take the fact that we've just been through one of the biggest periods of wealth, construction, and public sector spending in our history it's even worse. Even if we started tomorrow morning and worked solidly (which we won't) it would take decades and cost scores of billions of euros to fix the mess we have in place.

I genuinely think that that money and time would be better spent in researching and marketing more sustainable methods of transport, such as e-cars, because i would trust the private sector and consumers to spend it far more shrewdly than i would successive Irish public services, governments, and quangos.

antoobrien

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Did anyone see the Irish Daily Mail today?

You're posting based on the daily mail? Taxi for Dannyboy83.

If the exchange rate recovers (i.e. when the ECB & European commission get their collective fingers out) the prices will start to drop again.

BrianD3

antoobrien wrote: »

How did you come up with 1.78? Never mind the 185km range is a theoretical figure, when road tested in the US the Nissan Leaf came out at about half its lab range when you did things like turn on aircon and heating, ran it in stop/start traffic, so I'll stick with my 3.3c thanks.

Here's what you wrote
"Fuel efficiency 3.3c/km (c)

(c) 22 kwh for 185km @15c/kwh"

That works out at 1.78 cent per km not 3.3 cent per km.

You were wrong and now you're trying a different tactic to cover up your mistake by waffling about real life ranges. I note that you don't say anything about whether the 4.2 l/100 km that you use for the diesel Focus is a real world figure or a "lab" figure

Actually that depends on who you believe. AA roadwatch have it at 12,000km, with large regional variances. So 13,100 is well lower than average?

12,000 miles would generally be regarded as average mileage. SEAI say 14k miles. Most cars being sold now are diesel and as per the below link the average mileage for a diesel car is estimated at just over 13,000 miles per year
http://nmr.ie/2012/02/average-mileage-in-ireland-2012/

Maybe the people who responded to the AA survey got confused between miles and kms.

Only if you have nightsaver (which is actually 2 meters), otherwise it's the 24h rate.

People who buy electric cars will get nightsaver (and an outdoor socket supplied and fitted by either Renault or the ESB)

How long will that offer last? Wait - it's a bleedin' renault, who in their right minds would buy one?

:rolleyes: Rubbish comment and pretty silly coming from someone who says he drives a Ford Focus.

Ford Focus less reliable than Renault Megane in the ADAC breakdown statistics
http://www.adac.de/sp/presse/meldungen/technik_umwelt/ADAC-Pannenstatistik-2011%20.aspx

Dannyboy83

antoobrien wrote: »

You're posting based on the daily mail? Taxi for Dannyboy83.

If the exchange rate recovers (i.e. when the ECB & European commission get their collective fingers out) the prices will start to drop again.

Touché

But the indo are running with the same story (arguably not much better in the credibility stakes in fairness, lol).

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/drivers-face-100-fillup-bill-as-petrol-heads-for-2-a-litre-3207507.html

DRIVERS face a bill of almost €100 every time they fill up their cars, as more petrol price hikes loom.

As the fuel price burdens continues to grow, the cost of filling a typical family saloon car with a 55-litre tank has soared to €93.50.

A litre of petrol is now past the €1.70 barrier, almost double the price of three years ago when it cost 94c.

The average driver will have to fork out more than €2,500 over 12 months for fuel compared with about €1,800 in 2010.

When insurance, motor tax, toll charges, NCT fees, and annual servicing are added, the weekly cost of running a family car is well past €100.

International oil prices, a weakened euro and tax increases have combined to push fuel costs to their highest levels ever.

And with another harsh Budget on the way, further hikes are likely over the coming months.

Petrol may nudge even closer to the €2 a litre mark as we head into winter.

Apparently it's based on a report from AA Ireland, but I haven't been able to find that.

antoobrien

BrianD3 wrote: »

You were wrong and now you're trying a different tactic to cover up your mistake by waffling about real life ranges.

No I'm not trying to cover it up, it is a lab figure. Here's the procedure for testing:

The cycle must be performed on a cold vehicle at 20-30°C (typically run at 25°C). The cycles may be performed on a flat road, in the absence of wind. However, to improve repeatability, they are generally performed on a roller test bench. This type of bench is equipped with an electrical machine to emulate resistance due to aerodynamic drag and vehicle mass (inertia). For each vehicle configuration, a look-up table is applied: each speed corresponds to a certain value of resistance (reverse torque applied to the drive wheels). This arrangement enables the use of a single physical vehicle to test all vehicle body styles (Sedan, hatchback, MPV...) by simply changing the look-up table. A fan is coupled to the roller bench to provide the vehicle air intakes with an airflow matching the current speed. Many more tests can be performed during vehicle development with this arrangement than with conventional road tests.
The test is conducted with all ancillary loads turned off (Air conditioning compressor and fan, lights, heated rear window, etc.)

All of that means that the 185km range is at best propaganda.

BrianD3 wrote: »

I note that you don't say anything about whether the 4.2 l/100 km that you use for the diesel Focus is a real world figure or a "lab" figure

I said it's the information quoted from the price list, however having driven fords and seen them hit the advertised mark I'd be inclined to believe the figures. Besides my brother has a 1.6l D (now 6 years old) and got something of that order when he bought it, so I'm happy enough with it.

BrianD3 wrote: »

12,000 miles would generally be regarded as average mileage. SEAI say 14k miles. Most cars being sold now are diesel and as per the below link the average mileage for a diesel car is estimated at just over 13,000 miles per year
http://nmr.ie/2012/02/average-mileage-in-ireland-2012/

You believe a business looks for clocked cars over a well established motoring organisation, who have been doing this type of survey for years. And you have a problem with my figures.

edit: you're also forgetting that many people have stated that they have cut back on their driving. The 16,000km is an older figure, the AA have started using 12,000 as the average over the past year or two.

BrianD3 wrote: »

Maybe the people who responded to the AA survey got confused between miles and kms.

Given that all cars sold since 2005 are in kms I doubt it.

BrianD3 wrote: »

People who buy electric cars will get nightsaver (and an outdoor socket supplied and fitted by either Renault or the ESB)

Is that so? Any chance one could provide a link, seeing as the esb don't have that little titbit in their ecar faqs, or is one merely guessing. Besides, the public fast charge terminals & on-street terminals will not be at night rates unless one parks their car at one overnight.

BrianD3 wrote: »

:rolleyes: Rubbish comment and pretty silly coming from someone who says he drives a Ford Focus.


Ford Focus less reliable than Renault Megane in the ADAC breakdown statistics
http://www.adac.de/sp/presse/meldungen/technik_umwelt/ADAC-Pannenstatistik-2011%20.aspx

I'll take it you've never driven one. There were two Meganes in my family (both 05's) and were nothing but trouble. Without doubt the worst cars we've ever had (for the record, the previous "worst" was an 80's vintage renault 8 that was sold in the early 90s), not even my brothers falling apart punto managed to get on the podium (there was a hyundai that was fond of breaking down in there somewhere as well).

Pretty much anyone I know that has had a renault is not impressed the service record of their cars. In fact of the two dozen or so people whom I know had renaults at some stage there are only 2 people I can say were happy with them.

On the other had, the only thing I've had to do with my focus was the annual service and scheduled maintenance (apart from getting rear ended a few months ago). For 7 year old car with over 91,000km up (more than 2/3 of that mine) that's some feat.

antoobrien

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Apparently it's based on a report from AA Ireland, but I haven't been able to find that.

Here you go: http://blog.aaireland.ie/index.php/2012/08/20/fuel-prices/petrol-could-reach-e1-70-per-litre-says-aa

BrianD3

antoobrien wrote: »

No I'm not trying to cover it up, it is a lab figure. Here's the procedure for testing:

All of that means that the 185km range is at best propaganda.

I said it's the information quoted from the price list, however having driven fords and seen them hit the advertised mark I'd be inclined to believe the figures. Besides my brother has a 1.6l D (now 6 years old) and got something of that order when he bought it, so I'm happy enough with it.

So let's get this straight. You quote the NEDC procedure and deduce from it that the official range for an EV is propaganda.

You then say that you agree with the official figure for a diesel Focus (obtained using the same NEDC procedure) because you've "driven Fords" and your brother has one.

In you comparsion table you used the "lab" figure for the Focus and calculated the cents per km for that. For the EV you quoted the "lab" figure of 185 km but then you didn't use it for your calculation.

I can see the mistake you made - you used 100 km instead of 185 km for the EV calculation because you were working with litres per 100 km figures for the IC engined cars and forgot to change from 100 to 185. Now you're fudging the issue by talking about lab figures and propaganda. Poor argument

You believe a business looks for clocked cars over a well established motoring organisation, who have been doing this type of survey for years. And you have a problem with my figures.

I've no reason not to believe cartell or the SEAI figures and am not sure where you're going with this "business looks for clocked cars" line.
Yes I would tend to believe cartell and SEAI ahead of the figures from an online survey of AA members many of whom are likely to be clueless. There are plenty of people out there who get mixed up between miles and kms and make mistakes when converting from one to the other.

Given that all cars sold since 2005 are in kms I doubt it.

Many cars have been imported into Ireland from the UK and not converted from miles.

Is that so? Any chance one could provide a link, seeing as the esb don't have that little titbit in their ecar faqs, or is one merely guessing. Besides, the public fast charge terminals & on-street terminals will not be at night rates unless one parks their car at one overnight.

What exactly are you asking? Are you under the impression that a person living in an average house can't get night saver if they have an electric car. Of course they can and anyone who buys an EV wthout finding out how to do this is a bit silly.

There are numerous mentions of night rate electricity in the ESB's ecars info. I have been at several meetings and conferences where the advantages of charging cars at night for both the consumer and the ESB were discussed. Apparently it makes the grid more efficient.

Also here's some general info on Night Saver. Says that it is suitable for consumers who can use at least 22% of their units at night. It's very likely that this would apply to somebody driving an electric car and charging it at home.
https://www.electricireland.ie/switchchange/pricePlanElec.htm

re: the public charge points, last time I checked the ESB had not organised the billing system for them so there was no charge for the electricity. EV owners applied to the ESB showing evidence of their EV ownership and then received fobs allowing them to use their charge points.

As I said, there was no charge when I last checked. I have asked about whether night rate is/will be used but didn't receive a straight answer so I don't know how you're so sure that it's the day rate

I'll take it you've never driven one. There were two Meganes in my family (both 05's) and were nothing but trouble. Without doubt the worst cars we've ever had (for the record, the previous "worst" was an 80's vintage renault 8 that was sold in the early 90s), not even my brothers falling apart punto managed to get on the podium (there was a hyundai that was fond of breaking down in there somewhere as well).

Pretty much anyone I know that has had a renault is not impressed the service record of their cars. In fact of the two dozen or so people whom I know had renaults at some stage there are only 2 people I can say were happy with them.

On the other had, the only thing I've had to do with my focus was the annual service and scheduled maintenance (apart from getting rear ended a few months ago). For 7 year old car with over 91,000km up (more than 2/3 of that mine) that's some feat.

That's all anecdotal evidence. I posted a link to ADAC statistics based on thousands of callouts which show Renaults faring well.

FYI we have owned numerous Renaults and numeruos Fords. Two of the Fords were the Focus model, one was unreliable the other was reliable.

The 1.4 non turbo engine fitted in the Focus until recenty is fairly crap and is well down on the class leaders.

It is ignorant and stupid to say, as you did, that nobody in their right mind would buy a Renault.

antoobrien

BrianD3 wrote: »

So let's get this straight. You quote the NEDC procedure and deduce from it that the official range for an EV is propaganda.

I could give you the smartass answer, but no I won't do that because it will take away from the serious nature of the discussion.

I've based it on actual independent empirical results for testing of an ecar, which I have linked to earlier. The Nissan Leaf - which has an NCDP rating of 175km (and is a smaller lighter car btw) - was tested by the US EPA in various real world scenarios. They came up with a more realistic 117km range per full charge.

BrianD3 wrote: »

You then say that you agree with the official figure for a diesel Focus (obtained using the same NEDC procedure) because you've "driven Fords" and your brother has one.

Actually the price list doesn't say how Ford got its information. And what I said was that based on my experience they're accurate.

My figures (android fuel app for the past year) for my 7 year old 1.4l petrol give 7.64l/100km, so the question is can you believe that the newer engines are 21% more efficient?

I know it's a difference between a 1.4 and 1.6 but the question stands, can you believe they are more efficient. If you can't then lets just stop there because there's no point in continuing the discussion as we're already into the realms of religious belief not science.

Btw I said my brother has a 1.6d, I didn't say it's a ford. The car he has has a worse quoted fuel efficiency figure than the corresponding focus model, and given 6 years of engine development (there has been at least one if not two iterations of the engine since 2006) I can believe the figures used.

BrianD3 wrote: »

In you comparsion table you used the "lab" figure for the Focus and calculated the cents per km for that. For the EV you quoted the "lab" figure of 185 km but then you didn't use it for your calculation.

I used the published figure for the ford because I can believe the figures that they are reasonably accurate, based on the information I have to hand (published and not).

However I can't believe the EV figures becuase of the EPA tests for the Nissan leaf mentioned earlier.

BrianD3 wrote: »

I can see the mistake you made - you used 100 km instead of 185 km for the EV calculation because you were working with litres per 100 km figures for the IC engined cars and forgot to change from 100 to 185. Now you're fudging the issue by talking about lab figures and propaganda. Poor argument

It wasn't a mistake it was intentional, as I said in response to your orignal criticism, if explained lazily. Given the range capabilities of other eCars and factors like the 20mins for an 80% fast charge half the promoted range is a more realistic number to aim for. The 3.3c figure is realistic than the 1.78c figure that your blind belief in the EV gives.

BrianD3 wrote: »

I've no reason not to believe cartell or the SEAI figures and am not sure where you're going with this "business looks for clocked cars" line.

The word gullible comes to mind. I wouldn't believe a company that goes looking for the evidence that justifies their existence.

Besides the SEAI, haven't published updated the Energy in Transportfigures (where they include mileage) figures since 2009, so it'd be interesting to see where they get these pro ported SEAI figures from (or do we just trust unpublished figures because they are supposedly from an official body).

BrianD3 wrote: »

What exactly are you asking?........

Also here's some general info on Night Saver

For evidence of your contention that the nighsaver meters will automatcially be fitted for the owners of ecars. I know all about nighsaver meters - I have one in my current apartment.

BrianD3 wrote: »

the public charge points, last time I checked the ESB had not organised the billing system

Go back and read the FAQs then

For publicly accessible charge points an online account is being developed which will enable electric car drivers to access public charge points. Your charge point access card will allow you to log into your account, choose your electricity supplier and prepay for your electricity

BrianD3 wrote: »

That's all anecdotal evidence.

Here's another bit of anecodal evidence - there are two major motor groups that closed down in galway over the past few years. Renault & Toyota. Why - beucase people weren't buying them becuase of what they hear anecdocatlly. As I've said a lot of people found out that Renault are just p**s poor when it comes to relaibility (and resale value).

BrianD3 wrote: »

I posted a link to ADAC statistics based on thousands of callouts which show Renaults faring well.

Yeah post something in German, it's likely that it'll be understood. Forutnatly goolge translate has intervened, so I've an idea of what's being said on that page. Now, while I don't trust my interpretation of something I can't read, if the google translation of that page right, it's a poor result for Renault. My reading of the attached image (the google translation states that german cars dominate the relaiblility stats) is that the higher the ranking the more relaible the car. The Megane is the only one that ranks higher than it's rival Ford. Oops.

BrianD3 wrote: »

It is ignorant and stupid to say, as you did, that nobody in their right mind would buy a Renault.

Renault are the worst cars my family ever had (apart from my Ford we've also had various Mazda, Toyota, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Fiat, Nissan, Peugot and Seat cars). Sorry for you but your experinece does not outweigh my family's car history (and the preceptions of my car owning friends) so the statement stands in all it's lack regard for what anybody thinks of it.

longhalloween

Saw petrol at €1.74.99 yesterday in cavan.

longhalloween

longhalloween wrote: »

Saw petrol at €1.74.99 yesterday in cavan.

Where every euro is a prisoner....;)

RichardAnd

Deleted User wrote: »

Where every euro is a prisoner....;)

Thumbs up for the most intelligent thing I've read today

BrianD3

antoobrien wrote: »

Yeah post something in German, it's likely that it'll be understood. Forutnatly goolge translate has intervened, so I've an idea of what's being said on that page. Now, while I don't trust my interpretation of something I can't read, if the google translation of that page right, it's a poor result for Renault. My reading of the attached image (the google translation states that german cars dominate the relaiblility stats) is that the higher the ranking the more relaible the car. The Megane is the only one that ranks higher than it's rival Ford. Oops.

http://www.adac.de/sp/presse/meldungen/technik_umwelt/ADAC-Pannenstatistik-2011%20.aspx
Oops indeed. The Megane is rated higher that the Focus. The Clio is rated higher than the Fiesta. The Scenic is rated higher than the C Max. Whether you speak German or not, it really isn't that hard to look at a table (table is at the link where it says, in English, download @ 300 dpi) and see that if the Renault Clio is listed in 8th place in the supermini class and the Ford Fiesta is listed in 13th place in the supermini class that, eh, the Clio is rated higher than the Fiesta. No amount of waffling about google translations changes that.

Re: your economy comparison - clearly you have decided to compare apples to oranges to suit your argument. You talk about the NEDC test and dismiss it as unrealistic yet you seem to be unaware that the "price list" economy figure that you quote for the diesel Focus is calculated from the same NEDC test. Where did you think this figure came from?

You say that this "price list" NEDC figure for the diesel car is accurate because you have anecdotal "evidence" that supports it. Whereas you don't agree with the NEDC figure for the electric car because the US EPA got a different result using a different procedure. You don't have any anecdotal evidence for electric cars because, presumably, you have never owned one.

So to sum up:
NEDC figure for the Ford Focus, you used it for your calculation, it's accurate because that's your experience
NEDC figure for the Nissan Leaf, you didn't use it for your calculation, it's not accurate because the US EPA has a different figure

Funny stuff. Come over to the Motors forum with that logic and you'll get roasted by the EV owners there who have done their sums before buying and are now experiencing "real life" economy from their EVs.

Re: Night Saver, I said that EV owners would get Night Saver meters. I never said that it would happen "automatically". EV owners will buy cars with the intention of charging them at night. They'll apply for Night Saver meters and get them. Can't really make it much more simple for you.

Go back and read the FAQs then

From the quote you posted, the system "is being developed" and it "will allow you to log onto your account". Sounds like it is still a work in progress so. I have first hand experience of EVs and have been at numerous meetings and conferences about them since 2010. I am telling you that last time I checked, the public charge points were operational but there was no billing system, therefore charging was free. Again, I can't make it much more simple than that.

I won't be making any more posts in this thread so if you wish to respond you'll have the last word. I would encourage you to discuss EVs and Renault reliability in the Motors forum as a) you'll discover that you don't know as much about this as you think b) I'm sure the Irish economy posters are very bored of all the car talk in this thread.

antoobrien

BrianD3 wrote: »

Re: your economy comparison - clearly you have decided to compare apples to oranges to suit your argument. You talk about the NEDC test and dismiss it as unrealistic yet you seem to be unaware that the "price list" economy figure that you quote for the diesel Focus is calculated from the same NEDC test. Where did you think this figure came from?

Real word figures - my brothers 1.6d (2006) gets 60mpg - that's 4.7l/100km - with his family in it, so yeah, I can believe Fords figures. I can't believe figures that have been proved to be misleading by a body like the EPA.

NIMAN

Its not too far away where people will be picking their cars based on the MPG figure.

I'd say the 1st manufacturer to get a 100mpg car will make a fortune (as long as its not too ugly!).

I'd guess that by end 2013, petrol will be €2 per litre.

thebman

NIMAN wrote: »

Its not too far away where people will be picking their cars based on the MPG figure.

I'd say the 1st manufacturer to get a 100mpg car will make a fortune (as long as its not too ugly!).

I'd guess that by end 2013, petrol will be €2 per litre.

Hasn't everyone already been doing that for the most part bar the petrol heads?

I think the first electric car to hit 200 actual miles on a charge will clean up. GM are claiming they have the technology developed now.

Bullseye1

With the hint of duty and VAT increase Noonon is trying his best to kill off the country.

paddy147

Bullseye1 wrote: »

With the hint of duty and VAT increase Noonon is trying his best to kill off the country.

I wonder what sort of Irish dance/jig he does when hes in front of Merkil????:rolleyes:

paddy147

Maybe a mass blockade of Leinster House by everyone with a truck,tractor and car might send a message to them.

Bullseye1

paddy147 wrote: »

Maybe a mass blockade of Leinster House by everyone with a truck,tractor and car might send a message to them.

It doesn't seem to have any effect. People still vote these monkeys in because anyone worth his/her salt would have nothing to do with politics. They know they type of people they would have to deal with in the Civil Service.

snubbleste

d@rk l0rd wrote: »

Cheapest I can get at the moment is €1.629. Drove by a filling station in Ashbourne (the one of the Dublin side of Ashbourne beside the traffic lights) yesterday charging €1.719 :eek:
Needless to say I drove on though there were actually people paying that price! :rolleyes:
Can see it hitting €2 (or €1.999) by the end of the year.

Do you still stand by this prediction?
Average price is currently €1.59/l, cheaper than your purchase last April.

tails_naf

thebman wrote: »

Hasn't everyone already been doing that for the most part bar the petrol heads?

I think the first electric car to hit 200 actual miles on a charge will clean up. GM are claiming they have the technology developed now.

Search for the tesla type s
All electric sports car
300 mile range
0 to 60 im 4.4 seconds
Looks amazing
35k euro - but not sold here yet.

This is the future. Hope it sells in ireland!