What Age can a Child Decide Custody

DanGlee

OK,

I'm not 100% sure on this as I am in the UK and the Ex with my child is in Ireland, but the child has a better time / life with me over in the UK, but laws being the laws and flawed, mothers gain custody despite how bad a parent they are.

I'm sure that there will be a lot of people saying there is no legal age for a child to decide (apart from 18) but has anybody had any experience in this and or knows of it going to court and the child deciding on which parent they wish to live with.

Going for full custody is obviously a nightmare in any country as they are all bias to the mother, so having the child give their opinion must help in the case for the father to get full custody of their child.

Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks.

DG

Al Capwned

DanGlee wrote: »

OK,


Going for full custody is obviously a nightmare in any country as they are all bias to the mother, so having the child give their opinion must help in the case for the father to get full custody of their child.

Any help is much appreciated.

Thanks.

DG

From my , and family members experience, they are biased toward the child if anything - not the mother.....

DanGlee

That would definitely be a bonus.

I have heard varying ages, but when you Google something like this you get a lot of US sites and different laws from different states, but completely different this side of the pond, but I don't think too different between UK and Ireland.

I know either way it will be a LONG drawn out affair / fight, but its for the best in the end!

CIARAN_BOYLE

i'm pretty sure that the child doesn't get to choose till the late teenage years but the opinions of the child are more likely to be considered and weighted to a higher degree as the child gets older

snor

Do you really think it is fair to ask the child to 'choose' one parent over the other. My children are swayed by their father giving them all the sweets they can eat, age inappropriate dvds, mobile phones, ipads, etc for the few hours a week he has them and I do and pay for everything else. He is also an abusive alcoholic - although I have been able to minimise their exposure and knowledge of this. Are they old enough to decide who they live with? If given the choice I wonder who they would choose?

Socialist_Pig

snor wrote: »

. My children are swayed by their father giving them all the sweets they can eat, age inappropriate dvds, mobile phones, ipads, etc for the few hours a week he has them

He must be on good money for an alco seeing as he can pay for his addiction and afford Ipads+mobile phones(i presume you arent talking about cr@ppy nokia's that cost 29 euro).

snor

When he was living here he used to spend €1500 a month on drink!!!!Yes -earns good money - gagits Christmas presents but sweets etc all the time. Maybe if he didn't earn good money he would not be an alcoholic now!!! Makes me look like the less fun parent just getting by financilly and spending nothing on myself- but kids grow up and realise these things. Just need to bite my lip and wait for them to discover these things for themselves in time.
Would love an ipad though!!!

fatmammycat

What does how much money he earns have to do with how he parents?

OUTOFSYNC

alproctor wrote: »

From my , and family members experience, they are biased toward the child if anything - not the mother.....

I disagree with this - the law is supposed to come up with a solution that is in the best interest of the child.

If this were the case in practice - you would see a whole load more kids living with Dad and Mother having access. This is not the case.

Orion

Socialist_Pig wrote: »

He must be on good money for an alco seeing as he can pay for his addiction and afford Ipads+mobile phones(i presume you arent talking about cr@ppy nokia's that cost 29 euro).

fatmammycat wrote: »

What does how much money he earns have to do with how he parents?

These posts are completely irrelevant to the OPs question. Please stay on topic.

DanGlee

Snor - Everycase is different and I don't want to get into the whole fathers rights thing as its another argument for another day/thread. The system is flawed and bias 100%, thats all there is and no more to say on it. As a woman, YOU WILL NEVER EXPERIENCE THIS!!!!!

But back on topic. I am looking for any experience or examples of children being able to [somewhat] decide where they want to go, obviously knowing its still down to a judge to "PLAY GOD" with the child's life.

I'm obviously going for custody, but I want to do it, honestly, respectfully and with as much help, knowledge and backing I can get as [mentioned above] I am fighting a broken, one way bias system that is in no short term ever going to change. But I have to do it for my son and to ensure he gets the best upbringing and life he can have and he wont get that with his mother. Now, I'm not here talking about taking him from his mother and never see her again, I'm talking about knowing he has two options, the mother and abusive non working family life living off benefits, or me, good job, always worked, good family home, values etc... But we all know that rarely comes into it. Generally unless the mother is a raging abusive drug addicted, child beating alcoholic they don't take them from their mothers... but that needs to change NOW!

Kildrought

Can only reference the Irish process, I don't have experience or knowledge of UK.

You haven't said if you and your child's mother were married; I'm assuming that you were and therefore that you are a legal guardian.

You will need to check your divorce or JS settlement details but the usual is that parents have joint custody with one parent being the primary caregiver, in this case your former wife.

If the child is living in Ireland then I believe you would have to bring your case for sole custody to Irish court.

In order to succeed you would have to have compelling evidence (medical, police reports, social worker reports) that your former wife is not a fit parent. The fact that you are employed and your former wife is not would not be sufficient reason to declare her an unfit parent.

You don't say how hold your child is? Are you planning to give up work to care for him? Are you prepared to move back to Ireland so he can maintain contact with his mother?

Factor in that you are living in a different country and (from what you say) are proposing to remove your son from Ireland, therefore taking him away from extended family/grandparents also; personally I think you will have a very big hill to climb.

Declaring your former wife to be an unfit parent is not something that can be done 'respectfully'.

If you fail you may have done a great deal of damage. If you succeed you may still do a great deal of damage.

DanGlee

Kildrought wrote: »

Can only reference the Irish process, I don't have experience or knowledge of UK.

You haven't said if you and your child's mother were married; I'm assuming that you were and therefore that you are a legal guardian.

You will need to check your divorce or JS settlement details but the usual is that parents have joint custody with one parent being the primary caregiver, in this case your former wife.

If the child is living in Ireland then I believe you would have to bring your case for sole custody to Irish court.

In order to succeed you would have to have compelling evidence (medical, police reports, social worker reports) that your former wife is not a fit parent. The fact that you are employed and your former wife is not would not be sufficient reason to declare her an unfit parent.

You don't say how hold your child is? Are you planning to give up work to care for him? Are you prepared to move back to Ireland so he can maintain contact with his mother?

Factor in that you are living in a different country and (from what you say) are proposing to remove your son from Ireland, therefore taking him away from extended family/grandparents also; personally I think you will have a very big hill to climb.

Declaring your former wife to be an unfit parent is not something that can be done 'respectfully'.

If you fail you may have done a great deal of damage. If you succeed you may still do a great deal of damage.

I am in the UK and I am aware that I would have to go through the Irish system as I have been to court twice already with her. We were not married, but I was made his guardian.

I'm not sure it is relevant that I am taking him out of the country. Why should I be the one that has to give everything up. My child was abducted from the UK to Ireland, but this was never an issue due to her being his 'mother' but I am the one that now has to do all the leg work to see my son without any justice for what she did! If I am taking him out of Ireland to his [also extended family] then how does that differ from what she did already? He was an habitual resident in the UK [Hague Convention] but not being married stopped me from doing anything about it. [Another flaw in the system]

I'm not sure why you are asking if I should or would give up work to care for him? At the moment, my son is either thrown into a creche 5 days a week and his grandmother looks after him from around Thursday to Sunday while she frolicks in the bars. Yes I would have to put him into a nursery here in the UK, but that time would be split between his grand parents here and a nursery, not 9 to 5 in a creche at 2 1/2yo

And just to give you an idea, I looked after my son, 24/7 after he was born due to possible post natal depression [undiagnosed, she would not see a Dr] and no interest in the child. I was his mother and father for over the first year of his life. He was glued to my side from the moment he woke to the minute he went to sleep... you tell me, if you did that, then you receive a phone call from a different country saying I'm keeping your son and he's staying here out of the blue... how would you feel?? Ask any mother that question, it would bring them to their knees... I have to stay in the UK for the foreseeable future as there is no future in Ireland, no jobs, no economy, nothing. At least here I have a job and can pay the maintenance and provide for my child as much as possible. Its not easy and it cost me the best part of £600 a month to see my son, but the little time I get is worth it. But its not about the money, its about his life and his future. He would be 1000 times better off with me. And everybody, even her family have said he would be better off with me. But that's all nothing, because once again, like you say, I would need the world to stand behind me infront of a judge for to him to even consider giving custody to the father!

But he is worth that fight everytime!

Kildrought

You posted for advice in regards to taking a legal case and you got it; if you want to start fighting, find someone else to do it with.

You may not consider certain things 'relevant' but, in my experience, a judge will.

It doesn't sound to me, on the basis of what you have posted, that you currently have compelling evidence to present. You may not approve of your former partner's lifestyle but I don't know that would be sufficient.

It's interesting that you describe him as being 'thrown into a crèche' in Ireland but you would 'put him in a nursery' in the UK. Trust me, emotive language like that won't get you very far in court.

Full time crèche fees are not cheap and if she is not in employment I'd be surprised at funding that cost from SW payments.

I wonder if it's an ECCE place? There's a limit on the number of hours there I think (my children are long since out of this phase so I'm not as au fait with it).

I can absolutely understand your heartbreak in losing your child and I have no doubt that you care for him deeply; but you need evidence to prove that your former partner is an unfit parent, emotional pleas won't do it for you.

Edit to add:
To answer your original question, at 2 or 3 years of age your child will not be asked what parent he wants to live with. There are no hard & fast rules but by and large children who are of secondary school age can have their wishes taken into account. They are not making the choice or decision however.

DanGlee

I know I said thrown into crèche, but he was basically put in within a week or two her getting a court order from me for more time with him and that was her and the solicitors whole argument against me seeing him more. Saying it would be disruptive, so basically it was done as an attack for me getting him 50/50.
Its a free crèche and I'm looking to get some info on it and what its like and if they have records of any development as I need to know these things.

I don't know what an ECCE is, but she joined some Fas course and got it through that I heard!

I know you mention about proving her being unfit. But lets boil it down to one fundamental question:

Why should I not have as much equal choice to raise him as much as she has. What law or rule says the mother has to have the child. I am a good dad, so I have as much right in this world to him as she does. I fail to see how its not equal. Unless this can be answered then I have every right to fight for custody and I should not need to disprove her parenting. If we can both look after him, who's to say he is better off with the mother than the father.
I]caveat: I understand there are a lot of waster dads out there there spoil it for the majority![/I

Oh and yes I understand he's only nearly 3 and not expecting it anytime soon, but I was thinking around 7 or 8 would be the age he can clearly say where he wants to be? Also I know its a long drawn out affair, so its the kind of thing I would be wanting to get the ball rolling within in the next year or so max. This isn't a hot headed thing I'm doing, its a well thought out constructed appeal, so want to go in with a much clear insight as possible.

I may come across negative to her [which I am] but its facts more than anything.

If there is one bit of advice I can give any other men it is:

NEVER STICK YOUR DICK IN CRAZY!

Kildrought

You'll need to save the debate on your 'fundamental' question for someone else.

I prefer to stick with the realities as they currently stand.

You may wish to insist that you '.. should not need to disprove her parenting'; I'm telling you that is what you will have to do if you wish to gain sole custody.

So your former partner is doing a FAS course and (I assume) gaining additional training and skills whilst doing so which will allow her to enter the workforce at a later stage, and your son attends crèche whilst she is there.

It is unlikely that in 5 years time your child will be asked where and with whom he wants to live; and even if he was that would not be the sole deciding factor.

Final word (and go consult with an Family Law Solicitor here in Ireland to hear the same thing): unless you have compelling evidence to establish that your former partner is an unfit parent you are unlikely to get sole custody of your son.

DanGlee

Final word (and go consult with an Family Law Solicitor here in Ireland to hear the same thing): unless you have compelling evidence to establish that your former partner is an unfit parent you are unlikely to get sole custody of your son.

OK, without getting into anything, that statement is just basically saying that unless you get into a spat and arguments etc, the 'fundamental' reason for wanting custody which is "the benefit of the child" [according to official citizens advice websites] becomes completely irrelevant as it becomes a case of dis proving the other partners parenting ability and not what's best for the child.

We could go round and round in circles I feel with this. So best not to carry on. Ultimately I will be seeking advice from family law solicitors and I have one already [everything you are saying is not really that new] I was hoping for some experiences and examples when I came here.

Even if I don't win, I know in my heart I have fought for my son and he will know I tried everything in my power to raise him properly and not to be left and raised where he is...

Kildrought

No you don't 'get into a spat and arguments' ... you have EVIDENCE, that's what you go to court on.

To prove that you having sole custody of your son is to his benefit you have to prove that your former partner is an unfit parent. Now do you understand?

Based on what you have posted here, you don't have any evidence and without it, it is very unlikely that you will get sole custody.

If what I'm saying is nothing new to you, then it sounds like your Solicitor has already told you this.

Save the legal fees and use the money to see your son as often as you can.

angelfire9

I have to say I agree with Kildrought
It boils down to this:

The likelihood of you currently gaining sole custody of a minor child with the intention of removing him from the state is NIL unless you can PROVE that the mother is an unfit parent

The child is an Irish citizen presumably or at the very least entitled to an Irish passport
No Irish court is going to give you custody with the intent to remove him from Ireland unless he is in grave danger in his current circumstances or you can otherwise prove that his remaining in Ireland will be detrimental to his health/wellbeing

Davidth88

I am not sure if it's totally relevant , but striking all the same

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/boy-13-wins-right-to-stay-with-dad-after-legal-battle-2987998.html

A 13-YEAR-OLD son of divorced parents who refused to return to his mother in England following a holiday with his father in Ireland can remain here, the High Court has ruled.

The boy's mother had brought proceedings under the Hague Convention on Child Abduction seeking an order requiring his return to England and claiming he would have better schooling and a better life there.

The parents married in 1995 in the UK, separated in 2005 and divorced in 2008.

After that the Irish father returned here with all three of their children -- two boys and a girl -- with the mother's agreement.

No formal custody or access agreement was put in place, but the mother maintained contact with the children who also spent alternate Christmases with her.

The girl later went to live with her mother, but the boys remained here with the father until 2010 when the younger boy also went to live with his mother.

He said he did so because he was promised a better life there but, in July 2011, after a two-week holiday with his father, said he wished to remain here and did not return to the UK.

There was a dispute about the circumstances in which the boy decided to stay.

But a clinical psychologist who interviewed him said she was satisfied his views about wanting to stay were his own and genuine, he was well capable of forming and expressing them and had done so without pressure from others.

Mr Justice Michael Peart ruled, after balancing this "sufficiently mature" boy's "genuinely held" objections against the aims and objectives of the Convention, that this was one of those exceptional cases where a child should not be returned to his country of habitual residence which, in July 2011, was the UK.

While Article 12 of the Convention required immediate return of a child wrongfully removed, Article 13 permitted the court some discretion as to whether to refuse that order in exceptional cases, he said.

In this case, of "particular" note was the fact that the boy had seven years' experience of life with his father and of attending school here with which to rationally compare the 12-month period spent between 2010 and 2011 living with his mother in the UK, the judge said.

While he chose to go to the UK then, he had told his father he did so after indications either by his mother or sister that his life would be better there and he could return to Ireland if things did not work out.

There was limited evidence that his father was short of money as he was attending college and in such circumstances the promise of a better life in the UK may have had "some superficial attraction".

It was not contrary to the purposes or terms of the Convention to allow the boy change his mind before it was "too late", the judge ruled.

- Tim Healy

Kildrought

Was waiting for someone to post that!

The case doesn't set any new precedent, nor does it really negate anything that's already been said here.

What is unusual (and to my mind quite sad) was the siblings being separated.

My personal view is that this is quite a wrong thing for parents to do.

StillWaters

I'm really sorry about your position OP. You sound like a great dad, who has nurtured and bonded with your child, is stepping up to the plate, paying maintenance and being a part of your child's life. It must have ripped your heart out to have your child taken away.

Having said that it is highly unlikely a judge would rule a child be taken from their primary parent, extended family, friends and school in the primary school years. I do know cases where a child goes to live with the father in secondary school (not Court ordered though). Also, other than your ex suffering from PND, and availing of childcare whilst on a FAS course, you haven't indicated why she is unfit. Thats not our business obviously, but before going down the route of an expensive, acrimonious and (imho) futile custody case it may be worthwhile building a good co-parenting relationship with her.

Its not ideal, but Summer holidays are long in primary school, mid-terms, Easter etc.

The Corinthian

My understanding of the law is that it is a parent who seeks custody, at which point the well-being of the child is taken into account (although as has been pointed out, the law is grossly biased in favour of the mother).

Given this, the child's wishes may be taken into account, especially if the child is "sufficiently mature" in the eyes of the court and their wish to live with the non-custodial parent are "genuinely held" and not the product of undue influence (as cited in the above article).

As such it probably depends on a combination of the judge (both their perceptions and prejudices) and the child, which could mean that as early as 12 to 14 years of age, the child's wishes could tip scales in a custody case.

Donaldio

Wouldnt the fact that she kidnapped the child from his father and ran off with him to her home country enough to prove how completely negligent she is ?
Also why should it simply be a case of haveing proveing negligence on either side in the first place ?
Surely scince he is every bit as much the childs parent he should have just as much right to the custody of his son ?

billie1b

Donaldio wrote: »

Wouldnt the fact that she kidnapped the child from his father and ran off with him to her home country enough to prove how completely negligent she is ?
Also why should it simply be a case of haveing proveing negligence on either side in the first place ?
Surely scince he is every bit as much the childs parent he should have just as much right to the custody of his son ?

Not in Ireland, the judges are so backward here, the father could be a model citizen, good job, good money and education and the mother a heroin pumping welfare scrounge and the Mother will still get full custody as its in the childs 'best interests' to be with the mother for his/her early life. The only way/time a father will get custody as main care giver for the child is if the child is a boy and its the childs puberty years and the mother is not married or has a boyfriend. If she has the judge will tell the childs biological father that the mothers new partner will do the male part of puberty learning for his son and deny full custody/main care giver. The whole system is in favour of the mother in Ireland and it will be a long time before it catches up to date with the rest of world.

sleepytrees

I have felt compelled to write a response here.

I just want to say OP that are you sure wanting full custody is for the right reason?

You mentioned, why should you uproot your life and move country?!
The simple answer is because of YOUR child.

Don't use the excuse about recession, England is in just as deeply with the recession. There are jobs here!! Plenty of jobs.
Change your profession, retrain if you can't find a job in your field.

Also, it is to the benefit of your child if you try and have some respect for the mother. You say she is living off benefits?! But she is doing a FAS course? You feel like this was just an attack on you, but maybe she is willing to do what it takes to keep her child.

Also, there is no difference with a nursery in England or Ireland.

Uprooting a child can been very upsetting for the child. forcing a child to take sides is also damaging..

I would think you would move to Ireland and aim for joint custody.

As for the mother running back to Ireland, is this not her home country? It could be because she was unhappy in your relationship?

The Corinthian

sleepytrees wrote: »

Uprooting a child can been very upsetting for the child.

Like the mother did?

Thing is, there's going to be a cost to the child either way if the mother is, as the OP claims, not up to the job. Question is which option is better in the long run or on balance. If you decide not to do anything on the basis of disruption to the child, then by that logic abusive parents would always retain custody.

forcing a child to take sides is also damaging..

If the courts were more objective, this wouldn't be necessary...

I would think you would move to Ireland and aim for joint custody.

Joint custody does not actually mean joint custody in Ireland. The mother would still effectively be treated as the sole or principle custodian and where the child actually lives would likely be unchanged. Presuming he would even get joint custody.

As for the mother running back to Ireland, is this not her home country?

Could she had not done this because of HER child? That was what you suggested of him, after all.

January

Donaldio wrote: »

Wouldnt the fact that she kidnapped the child from his father and ran off with him to her home country enough to prove how completely negligent she is ?
Also why should it simply be a case of haveing proveing negligence on either side in the first place ?
Surely scince he is every bit as much the childs parent he should have just as much right to the custody of his son ?

Please don't bump 2 year old threads.