Violation of Human Rights? - Not being able to leave the Catholic Church

cursai

dvpower wrote: »

What's with the yawns? If the topic bores you so much, why don't you fúck off and contribute to a different thread?

That's not very Christian.....maybe you SHOULD leave the catholic church

starbelgrade

cursai wrote: »

That's not very Christian.....maybe you should leave the catholic church

They won't let him.

Defiler Of The Coffin

starbelgrade wrote: »

Ok - here goes...

Without the Church recognising your wish to leave the organisation, you are still technically recognised by them as a Catholic. This may have no bearing whatsoever on your day to day life, but to many it is an important thing.

What you fail to see is that this is not about you & what you want - it is about the rights we all have and that some wish to exercise.

Why you would not wish them to allow them to persue this as a right, makes little or no sense to me.

That's fair enough. If it is important to people that they are allowed to leave the church then they should be allowed. To me it is not a big deal at all, but that's just my opinion I guess.

dvpower

cursai wrote: »

That's not very Christian.....maybe you SHOULD leave the catholic church

Brilliant:)

cursai

Seriously though. What does it matter if they count you as a member. There not taking weekly contribution from your wage or sending annoying emails asking you to sign up for.great offers.
MC Donalds probably count half the world as lifetime customers.

Seachmall

cursai wrote: »

Seriously though. What does it matter if they count you as a member. There not taking weekly contribution from your wage or sending annoying emails asking you to sign up for.great offers.
MC Donalds probably count half the world as lifetime customers.

By failing to recognise that people leave their Church they are being both childishly stubborn and disingenuous.

For most it's merely frustrating but by over representing themselves, and falsely representing others, they can act as a powerful lobbyist group. This can have real world consequences for nations where the Church still has substantial power. I'm sure most of us are aware of developing nations where condoms and homosexuality are frowned upon or even outlawed as a result of the Church's presence.

MagicSean

dvpower wrote: »

Let me get this straight.


There was some canon law that was allowing some people to defect by following a simple process, but then they changed it overnight, but they couldn't change it back again overnight, because of the extreme complexity of canon law.


I'm going away now to bang my head against a wall.:pac:

No. There was an exemption added to the law in 1983. This exemption was removed in 2010 following a consultation process which lasted 13 years.

Seachmall wrote: »

By failing to recognise that people leave their Church they are being both childishly stubborn and disingenuous.

For most it's merely frustrating but by over representing themselves, and falsely representing others, they can act as a powerful lobbyist group. This can have real world consequences for nations where the Church still has substantial power.

It may be all of those things but that doesn't make it a breach of human rights.

Seachmall

MagicSean wrote: »

It may be all of those things but that doesn't make it a breach of human rights.

Which was never my argument.

cursai

Seachmall wrote: »

By failing to recognise that people leave their Church they are being both childishly stubborn and disingenuous.

For most it's merely frustrating but by over representing themselves, and falsely representing others, they can act as a powerful lobbyist group. This can have real world consequences for nations where the Church still has substantial power.

There only a powerful lobbyist group as long as people keep giving them recognising them. I signed up to sky and now they have my address. They keep sending me stupid magazines and killing trees whilst all the time running that as promoting saving the rainforest. That annoys and disgusts me more

dvpower

cursai wrote: »

Seriously though. What does it matter if they count you as a member. There not taking weekly contribution from your wage or sending annoying emails asking you to sign up for.great offers.
MC Donalds probably count half the world as lifetime customers.

By the same token, why don't they just accomodate people and create a record of people who have left or put a mark on the baptisimal record or something? If it's no big deal to them, why did they change the perfectly acceptable procedure that they used to have?

Seachmall

cursai wrote: »

There only a powerful lobbyist group as long as people keep giving them recognising them.

People will continue to recognise them if they can claim to represent a substantial percentage of the global population.

Catch-22.

MagicSean

dvpower wrote: »

By the same token, why don't they just accomodate people and create a record of people who have left or put a mark on the baptisimal record or something? If it's no big deal to them, why did they change the perfectly acceptable procedure that they used to have?

I don't think anybody is saying that the process shouldn't be available. We are arguing that it would be a pointless process with no effect and also that it is not a breach of fundamental human rights. I've already expolained why the law was changed.

cursai

Seachmall wrote: »

People will continue to recognise them if they can claim to represent a substantial percentage of the global population.

Catch-22.

well we can't force them to stop counting people. Separate state and church and all that. So just ignore it. Only the biddies and the fanatical atheists give them any creedence

starbelgrade

MagicSean wrote: »

It may be all of those things but that doesn't make it a breach of human rights.

Most on international laws on human rights recognise the the right to freedom which includes the right to change religion or belief. If a religious organisation refuses to allow you formally declare yourself no longer part of that religion, then I fail to see how this can be anything but a breach of a person's freedom.

MagicSean

starbelgrade wrote: »

If a religious organisation refuses to allow you formally declare yourself no longer part of that religion, then I fail to see how this can be anything but a breach of a person's freedom.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this point. The thread is going in circles.

cursai

Sky is the new religion and they are a powerful lobby group.
I want out.
But there's so much on.

Robert McGrath

Approximately 8 seconds ago I started a new religion.

This religion is called Robertology and shares all of its doctrines and dogma with the Roman Catholic Church with one small difference. The Church of Robertology publicly believes that the abuse of children is ok, and believes that the Catholic Church should never have apologised for this.

Oh, and I have decided that every person who has posted in this thread is member of the Church of Robertology and can never leave, whether they believe in it or not. I have also decided that all of UglyBolloxFace's friends, family and everyone he/she has ever met is now a Robertologist, whether they have heard of the religion or not, and they can never leave either.

In the interests of fairness, I assume I will also now be reported for breaching people's human rights?

timesnap

Robert McGrath wrote: »

Approximately 8 seconds ago I started a new religion.

This religion is called Robertology and shares all of its doctrines and dogma with the Roman Catholic Church with one small difference. The Church of Robertology publicly believes that the abuse of children is ok, and believes that the Catholic Church should never have apologised for this.

Oh, and I have decided that every person who has posted in this thread is member of the Church of Robertology and can never leave, whether they believe in it or not. I have also decided that all of UglyBolloxFace's friends, family and everyone he/she has ever met is now a Robertologist, whether they have heard of the religion or not, and they can never leave either.

In the interests of fairness, I assume I will also now be reported for breaching people's human rights?

well i might consider reporting you to the taxman if Robertology takes off and like other church's get tax breaks for pretending to be compassionate towards others.:p

histories

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Thanks for this.

So, I think this does indeed show that they are violating my right of freedom of religion. Any suggestion on what I should do about this?

As far as I am aware The Declaration on HR isn't legally binding as it is not a treaty, although it can be used by States to put moral or diplomatic pressure on other States. Your point of reference would be Article 18 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (if you were arguing in an international court) but unfortunately the Vatican isn't a signatory.

ECtHR would be best bet, although as far as I'm aware the Vatican hasn't signed. The Ct could state that they are in violation of your rights under the Convention but it would have no effect legally as it is not binding on them.

HovaBaby

o1s1n wrote: »

Excommunication is still available isn't it?

Defile the eucharist in some way and mail a video of it to your local priest/bishop/witch doctor.

The OP should defile his grand mothers grave, that'd really give a finger to the church.

(Plus the OP won't be allowed to be buried in the graveyard, **DOUBLE PLUS!!!**)

starbelgrade

MagicSean wrote: »

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this point. The thread is going in circles.

I win.

elefant

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but by a massive coincidence I read a feature in a Dutch newspaper in Amsterdam yesterday about this very same issue. I can't remember which newspaper it was, but if I find out I'll post a link to the story (and google translate can do the rest ). Might be interesting for people to see a Dutch view on the issue.

Unless you read it there first, of course, it's really quite a huge coincidence!

Found it: http://www.depers.nl/binnenland/623002/Voor-eens-en-voor-altijd-katholiek.html

Hank_Jones

elefant wrote: »

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but by a massive coincidence I read a feature in a Dutch newspaper in Amsterdam yesterday about this very same issue. I can't remember which newspaper it was, but if I find out I'll post a link to the story (and google translate can do the rest ). Might be interesting for people to see a Dutch view on the issue.

Unless you read it there first, of course, it's really quite a huge coincidence!

Found it: http://www.depers.nl/binnenland/623002/Voor-eens-en-voor-altijd-katholiek.html

I'll give that article a look, just have to brush up on my Dutch.

Should be alright in about 6 months.

Jamesyrp007

Can't believe they wont let people leave the stupid church anymore.. I was sure you still could.. At this rate the whole country could be at home on a Sunday morning and we would still be called a catholic country.. Not cool..

Sod'o swords

1huge1 wrote: »

Recently emailed my local diocese about leaving the church officially.

Got this reply

Dear Mr. Mitchell,

The procedure regarding formally defecting from the faith is a simple one. Write to the Diocesan Secretary of the diocese of baptism with your relevant details: Name, Address, Date of Birth, Parents’ Names; Parish of Baptism. The Diocesan Secretary would then reply and would process your request. The outcome, if you wished him to proceed, would entail the secretary contacting the Parish Priest of the parish of your baptism and ask him to include an annotation regarding your defection in the baptismal records.

Yours sincerely,

Rev. Nicholas J. Irwin,
Diocesan Secretary.

I'm interested Huge did you follow this up and was it successful?

Jay D

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Thanks for this.

So, I think this does indeed show that they are violating my right of freedom of religion. Any suggestion on what I should do about this?

Shut up moaning.

Find a psychologist to rant your little peeves to.

Join Scientology.

Amen.

elefant

Hank_Jones wrote: »

I'll give that article a look, just have to brush up on my Dutch.

Should be alright in about 6 months.

Or you could just click translate when you're prompted. It's not that difficult to decipher.