Violation of Human Rights? - Not being able to leave the Catholic Church

UglyBolloxFace

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

You've lived a privileged life if these three ceremonies are genuinely the three biggest mistakes of your life.

Or do you just simply thrive on hyperbole, like I suspect?

Well let me put it this way:

Out of all of the mistakes I've made in my life, those three were the biggest (or that should be 2, seeing as I had no choice in becoming baptised).

timesnap

Liam Byrne wrote: »

The word for an organisation which prevents you from leaving of your own free will is "cult"

Ah so Liam then before boards gave an option to leave it was a Cult?:pac:

kidding aside how do regular AH's posters keep up with threads that go to thousands of posts

take cool pics and video links for instance,how the hell do the mods spot a double post and relegate it to a link................ what does one do before posting there, view or watch the thousands of posts before?

Frada i salute you you smug bastard:pac::)

UglyBolloxFace

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Renouncing your citizenship and vowing never to return too?

Do you suggest that US citizens should renounce their citizenship because of the Iraq War, because of the Contra debacle? Or how about the Waco Siege, whereby the State are believed to have been party to it.

Be realistic - if I were to renounce my citizenship, I would be stateless. How is that going to help?

Who's speaking in hyperbole now?

oppenheimer1

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Well let me put it this way:

Out of all of the mistakes I've made in my life, those three were the biggest (or that should be 2, seeing as I had no choice in becoming baptised).

Well I cannot see how that mistake manifests itself as something greater than two wasted days, but presumably happy days at the time. I'd personally consider losing €50 on a bet to be a greater mistake.

You really should consider yourself extremely lucky in life.

Pace2008

I'd like to be able to officially leave the Church, but in reality it's little more than just a record and doesn't influence government decision making like census figures can.

It's not that big a deal and "violation of human rights," which I'd associate more with the actions of military juntas in developing countries, sounds pretty overdramatic.You should be able to defect but, for me, it nearly ranks down there with the removal of the Angelus in terms of importance - should happen, but I could die pretty happily if it didn't.

UglyBolloxFace

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Well I cannot see how that mistake manifests itself as something greater than two wasted days, but presumably happy days at the time. I'd personally consider losing €50 on a bet to be a greater mistake.

You really should consider yourself extremely lucky in life.

So losing 50 Euro on a bet is a greater mistake to you than getting yourself into a seemingly lifelong membership with the cult that is the Roman Catholic Church?

That is astounding.

I will no longer be reading your posts after reading the above. Words fail me - your priorities are as messed up as the Church's.

Yahew

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Do you suggest that US citizens should renounce their citizenship because of the Iraq War, because of the Contra debacle? Or how about the Waco Siege, whereby the State are believed to have been party to it.

The logic of your position with regards to the Catholic Church is that they should, yes.

Be realistic - if I were to renounce my citizenship, I would be stateless. How is that going to help?

Since the State was as culpable as the Catholic Church you have the option to find a State with no history of abuse, or become Stateless, yes.

UglyBolloxFace

Pace2008 wrote: »

It's not that big a deal and "violation of human rights," which I'd associate more with the actions of military juntas in developing countries, sounds pretty overdramatic

I fully understand and respect your opinion regarding this, but regardless of the abuse, no matter how small or large, it should be able to be addressed in the proper fashion.

"There is no violation small or great - there is only violation"

- UglyBolloxFace :pac:

oppenheimer1

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Do you suggest that US citizens should renounce their citizenship because of the Iraq War, because of the Contra debacle? Or how about the Waco Siege, whereby the State are believed to have been party to it.

Be realistic - if I were to renounce my citizenship, I would be stateless. How is that going to help?

Who's speaking in hyperbole now?

If a US citizen felt so aggrieved by the actions of their State that they no longer wanted to be part of it then yes I would expect them to renounce their citizenship.

Presumably you'll emigrate and settle in another country allowing yourself to become a naturalised citizen, thus allowing you to renounce Irish citizenship without leaving yourself stateless. You would no longer describe or consider yourself "Irish"

Overheal

Yahew wrote: »

Since the State was as culpable as the Catholic Church you have the option to find a State with no history of abuse, or become Stateless, yes.

He has that right, yes. Just as he has an Article 20 right to leave the Catholic Church.

UglyBolloxFace

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If a US citizen felt so aggrieved by the actions of their State that they no longer wanted to be part of it then yes I would expect them to renounce their citizenship.

Presumably you'll emigrate and settle in another country allowing yourself to become a naturalised citizen, thus allowing you to renounce Irish citizenship without leaving yourself stateless. You would no longer describe or consider yourself "Irish"

Yahew wrote: »

The logic of your position with regards to the Catholic Church is that they should, yes.



Since the State was as culpable as the Catholic Church you have the option to find a State with no history of abuse, or become Stateless, yes.

You all appear to becoming side-tracked. Child abuse is not the only reason I want to leave this church - the fact that I find the idea of an almighty BEARDED BLOKE IN THE FUCKING SKY watching over us offensive and disgusting is a big factor in my stance here.

I will never understand religion nor religious people. While I do of course respect their right to worship and believe in whomever they want, they will not and have no right to trap me into being a member of their cult.

Yahew

Overheal wrote: »

He has that right, yes. Just as he has an Article 20 right to leave the Catholic Church.

True there are two arguments here. Should he have the right to renounce Catholicism. Answer: yes.

Should he also renounce Irish citizenship. Answer: yes.

oppenheimer1

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

So losing 50 Euro on a bet is a greater mistake to you than getting yourself into a seemingly lifelong membership with the cult that is the Roman Catholic Church?

That is astounding.

I will no longer be reading your posts after reading the above. Words fail me - your priorities are as messed up as the Church's.

Yes I would because my relationship with the church was easily (and has been) terminated. No longer going is good enough for me.

It doesn't matter what list my name appears on as actions speak louder than words.

MagicSean

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

You all appear to becoming side-tracked. Child abuse is not the only reason I want to leave this church - the fact that I find the idea of an almighty BEARDED BLOKE IN THE FUCKING SKY watching over us offensive and disgusting is a big factor in my stance here.

I will never understand religion nor religious people. While I do of course respect their right to worship and believe in whomever they want, they will not and have no right to trap me into being a member of their cult.

So why are you giving them so much recognition and status

UglyBolloxFace

MagicSean wrote: »

So why are you giving them so much recognition and status

Don't you realise what I am trying to do - I am trying to remove this "status and recognition" by fully removing my name from their database.

As has been mentioned already by Starbelgrade and others, if the catholic church had nothing to fear and if people leaving the church was not a problem to them, then they wouldn't have removed the option to leave the church.

MagicSean

You are simply validating the control they claim over your life.

KeithAFC

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Don't you realise what I am trying to do - I am trying to remove this "status and recognition" by fully removing my name from their database.

As has been mentioned already by Starbelgrade and others, if the catholic church had nothing to fear and if people leaving the church was not a problem to them, then they wouldn't have removed the option to leave the church.

Become an Atheist Protestant...:pac:

Overheal

MagicSean wrote: »

You are simply validating the control they claim over your life.

It really doesn't matter what reasons an individual has for choosing to remove themselves from an organization. Who are you to criticize them? The only point being made here is that he has a fundamental right to do so, whether you agree with his reasons for doing so or not.

carfiosaoorl

Yahew wrote: »

True there are two arguments here. Should he have the right to renounce Catholicism. Answer: yes.

Should he also renounce Irish citizenship. Answer: yes.

Are you saying those things go hand in hand

starbelgrade

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

You've lived a privileged life if these three ceremonies are genuinely the three biggest mistakes of your life.

Or do you just simply thrive on hyperbole, like I suspect?

To deny someone their basic human rights is a very serious issue. No-one is comparing this to the likes of slavery or torture, but that does not mean that it is not important.

To not treat this as a serious issue & to say that the OP is exaggerating is akin to saying that a person who is mugged should consider themselves lucky that they were never raped.

The degrees for the severity of crimes are usually reflected in the punishment, however, in the eyes of the law, a crime is a crime regardless of the severity.

The same principal applies to breaches of human rights and the Catholic Church's clear refusal to allow people the freedom to choose whether or not they belong to their organisation is clearly a breach of the very founding principals of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

MagicSean

Overheal wrote: »

It really doesn't matter what reasons an individual has for choosing to remove themselves from an organization. Who are you to criticize them? The only point being made here is that he has a fundamental right to do so, whether you agree with his reasons for doing so or not.

What fundamental right? At worst they are in breach of data protection laws. But seeing as how they are their own country there is nothing you can really do about that.

timesnap

In fact it is the Catholic church's fault that they will not allow a person to leave.
it claims that all popes are descendants of Peter whom if one is to believe the bible said Christ appointed him as the one to be Gods rep on earth,asking peter to build his church upon this rock.
Christ never said it was compulsory to either join or leave that church.

even if Jesus was not the son of god the CC twisted everything it is believed he said to suit its own dubious agenda.

carfiosaoorl

starbelgrade wrote: »

To deny someone their basic human rights is a very serious issue. No-one is comparing this to the likes of slavery or torture, but that does not mean that it is not important.

To not treat this as a serious issue & to say that the OP is exaggerating is akin to saying that a person who is mugged should consider themselves lucky that they were never raped.

The degrees for the severity of crimes are usually reflected in the punishment, however, in the eyes of the law, a crime is a crime regardless of the severity.

The same principal applies to breaches of human rights and the Catholic Church's clear refusal to allow people the freedom to choose whether or not they belong to their organisation is clearly a breach of the very founding principals of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

I just had to thank this twice.

Yahew

carfiosaoorl wrote: »

Are you saying those things go hand in hand

Oh, FFS. If he wants to leave the Catholic Church because of abuse he should also forgo his citizenship because of the abuse. The State had final custodial responsibility for the care of those children.

Overheal

MagicSean wrote: »

What fundamental right? At worst they are in breach of data protection laws. But seeing as how they are their own country there is nothing you can really do about that.

Perhaps you didn't read the thread?

http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights

Article 18.

• Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 20.

• (1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.
• (2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

PREAMBLE

Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

starbelgrade

MagicSean wrote: »

What fundamental right? At worst they are in breach of data protection laws. But seeing as how they are their own country there is nothing you can really do about that.

The freedom to leave or discontinue membership in a religion or religious group —in religious terms called "apostasy"—is a fundamental part of religious freedom, covered by Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Yahew

starbelgrade wrote: »

The freedom to leave or discontinue membership in a religion or religious group —in religious terms called "apostasy"—is a fundamental part of religious freedom, covered by Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Probably those rights apply to countries, not to the data records of the Churches. Mormons baptise people after birth.

( Not that the universal declaration means anything anyway - in many countries apostasy is punishable by the State and the penalty is death).

UglyBolloxFace

MagicSean wrote: »

What fundamental right? At worst they are in breach of data protection laws. But seeing as how they are their own country there is nothing you can really do about that.

We'll see about that - I am determined to take this to court.

Overheal

Yahew wrote: »

Probably those rights apply to countries, not to the data records of the Churches.

When those data records are being brandished as proof and metric of your membership to their association, then yes, it's a very real violation of your Article 20 human rights. Whats more, they are using that data to their political advantage.

timesnap

Yahew wrote: »

The State had final custodial responsibility for the care of those children.

Spot on Yahew,the state was happy to turn the blind eye to what was going on and every word of Irelands Constitution was sent for approval to the CC before being included.