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Violation of Human Rights? - Not being able to leave the Catholic Church
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Let's abstract away some of the specifics here.
There's an organisation, 'X', that claims to represent my views. In fact, I fundamentally disagree with the views of organisation X. In the spirit of the law (rather than the letter), is it reasonable for me to ask to be removed from this organisation?
Now suppose the organisation exploits its large membership to influence public policy decisions. Should I be angry that they count me as a member?0 -
It gives an incorrect count of the number of people without a religion.
Earlier you said that "Some moron putting Jedi as their religion interferes with the results of the census. People are sometimes too stupid to see what effects this has."
I'm pretty sure that pretty much everyone is aware that it effects the number of people without a religion, noone is that bloody stupid!
Not really a very good reason to kick up a fuss about it now is it?0 -
starbelgrade wrote: »And for me, it is also very important that if the Church is not removed from the control of our schools, that at the very least the State provides an alternative to Church run schools for every citizen who does not wish their child to be educated under their doctrine.
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The schools and the "doctrines" they teach is, and has been, decided by the secular authorities for years. The only exception being the religion classes, unexamined, and unimportant to most students. The whole THE CHURCH IS CONTROLLING OUR MINDS is trite fashionable nonsense.0 -
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The schools and the "doctrines" they teach is, and has been, decided by the secular authorities for years. The only exception being the religion classes, unexamined, and unimportant to most students. The whole THE CHURCH IS CONTROLLING OUR MINDS is trite fashionable nonsense.
Would you be happy enough for them to switch to a few hours of Scientology class a week then, yeah?0 -
Nothingbetter2d wrote: »Im of the opinion the entire Roman catholic church as an organisation should be banned. Child Pornography is banned because it dangerous to children. A church that actively protects it's own pedophiles is a danger to children and thus should also be banned.
Here's a historical fact for you. On the very Island you live in the Catholic Church was banned for generations. It is generally not considered a good time.0 -
Earlier you said that "Some moron putting Jedi as their religion interferes with the results of the census. People are sometimes too stupid to see what effects this has."
I'm pretty sure that pretty much everyone is aware that it effects the number of people without a religion, noone is that bloody stupid!
Not really a very good reason to kick up a fuss about it now is it?
Actually it is. If the census shows that 20% of people have no religion it may not have an effect but when it shows that 50% have no religion we can start looking at changing the constitution to exclude references to god.0 -
Would you be happy enough for them to switch to a few hours of Scientology class a week then, yeah?
The only thing I got out of my "Catholic" school religious classes was, bascially, civics. There werent any religious to teach it.
And people can withdraw from those classes. In effect the Catholic Church is nominally in charge of some of the buildings, but not really in charge of the education within them. Thats a historical fact. Maybe the whole system should be secularised, but it wouldnt make much difference, in real life. Just like the RC taking you off the register, or not, makes little difference.0 -
The only thing I got out of my "Catholic" school religious classes was, bascially, civics. There werent any religious to teach it.
And people can withdraw from those classes. In effect the Catholic Church is nominally in charge of some of the buildings, but not really in charge of the education within them. Thats a historical fact. Maybe the whole system should be secularised, but it wouldnt make much difference, in real life. Just like the RC taking you off the register, or not, makes little difference.
But the religious influence permeates through the whole school. I got bad, almost dangerous advice about sexual health because I went to a school which was still very much in the grip of the RCC, with priests teaching there.0 -
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Actually it is. If the census shows that 20% of people have no religion it may not have an effect but when it shows that 50% have no religion we can start looking at changing the constitution to exclude references to god.
You're just clutching at straws now though, the constitution will probably be changed long before 50% of the people say they have no religion.
I don't have a problem with references to God, it doesn't really bother me if people who believe in that want to hold on to the fact that we are 'a Catholic country' because I don't believe we really are. I just have a problem with people judging me or others who may or may not want to write down Jedi or something else on the form and I have a problem when people don't want to be classed as Catholic by the church are told to just get over it and it's not a big deal.
I mentioned in the other thread that I don't know specifically what I believe in, there is no name for it, Did I have the option of writing that on the census form? No, I'm supposed to fit into their boxes of the religions that you have a right to choose and I'm also falsely claimed by the Catholic church as one of their own.
If you are so concerned about the Census form being accurate then you should also be concerned about the numbers of people that the church claim as their own even though they're not. If the church were forced to allow people to leave when they want to and remove their names and if the state could get a hold of the statistics of people leaving then I believe it would show a much better indication of popularity of the Catholic church in this country.
I don't want them to remove my name just to be awkward, I want out because the Catholic church sickens me and I do not want them to claim me as one of theirs.0 -
You're just clutching at straws now though, the constitution will probably be changed long before 50% of the people say they have no religion.
I don't have a problem with references to God, it doesn't really bother me if people who believe in that want to hold on to the fact that we are 'a Catholic country' because I don't believe we really are. I just have a problem with people judging me or others who may or may not want to write down Jedi or something else on the form and I have a problem when people don't want to be classed as Catholic by the church are told to just get over it and it's not a big deal.
I mentioned in the other thread that I don't know specifically what I believe in, there is no name for it, Did I have the option of writing that on the census form? No, I'm supposed to fit into their boxes of the religions that you have a right to choose and I'm also falsely claimed by the Catholic church as one of their own.
If you are so concerned about the Census form being accurate then you should also be concerned about the numbers of people that the church claim as their own even though they're not. If the church were forced to allow people to leave when they want to and remove their names and if the state could get a hold of the statistics of people leaving then I believe it would show a much better indication of popularity of the Catholic church in this country.
I don't want them to remove my name just to be awkward, I want out because the Catholic church sickens me and I do not want them to claim me as one of theirs.
I'm not clutching at staws. I'm giving you an example of why it is important to put truthful answers on the census.
If you do not know what you believe in then you are not part of any religion so you tick "no religion". It's very simple. It doesn't mean you don't have some kind of faith, it means you are not part of an organised religion.
The catholic church can provide whatever figures they want. It is the number of people who tick "Roman Catholic" on the census forms that will be the figure taken into consideration and show the number of catholics in this country.0 -
I'm not clutching at staws. I'm giving you an example of why it is important to put truthful answers on the census.
Yes, but you said earlier that people are too stupid to realise the effects it has on the census which implied it would actually have big consequences but it doesn't.If you do not know what you believe in then you are not part of any religion so you tick "no religion". It's very simple. It doesn't mean you don't have some kind of faith, it means you are not part of an organised religion.
Does the census form specify 'organised religion'? Why should I have to tick no religion when what I believe could indeed be a religion to me?The catholic church can provide whatever figures they want. It is the number of people who tick "Roman Catholic" on the census forms that will be the figure taken into consideration and show the number of catholics in this country.
Yes, but if they allowed people to leave and the statistics were published then we would be able to get a good grasp on how the religion was declining in the country.0 -
Yes, but you said earlier that people are too stupid to realise the effects it has on the census which implied it would actually have big consequences but it doesn't.
It does. It has a large effect on the religion statistics. I'm not sure were your difficulty is in understanding this.Does the census form specify 'organised religion'? Why should I have to tick no religion when what I believe could indeed be a religion to me?
Then tick "other" if you feel the need. You don't have to write down a name for it.Yes, but if they allowed people to leave and the statistics were published then we would be able to get a good grasp on how the religion was declining in the country.
How would it be any better than the picture we get from the census figures. In fact, the census would probably be much more correct as people would be more likely to be truthful on it because it is more anonymous. There are a lot of people, particularly in rural Ireland who may not want their parents to know they are no longer catholic.0 -
That's what the census is for. As for them not allowing you to leave, that's not true. You're free to cease taking part in any activities related to the Catholic Church and change denomination or religion entirely. They're not going to knock down your door and force you to stay a member. Your presence on the baptismal register is perfectly valid and will always remain valid regardless of your changing opinions. If you were baptised, you stay on the register of people who were baptised. It's an event that occurred at some point in your life and was recorded and I don't see why it's necessary to remove that record.Yes, but if they allowed people to leave and the statistics were published then we would be able to get a good grasp on how the religion was declining in the country.0 -
Surely people are allowed to chose whatever religon they want....
The sheer hypocrisy of this is unreal...i mean they're (rc church) are only to happy to take on protestant converts but if any catholic wants to jump ship its a big no no0 -
It does. It has a large effect on the religion statistics. I'm not sure were your difficulty is in understanding this.
The religion statistics don't mean anything, I'm not sure why you find that difficult to understand.Then tick "other" if you feel the need. You don't have to write down a name for it.
Why should I? How would you like it if you couldn't choose Catholic? If that was classed as 'other'?How would it be any better than the picture we get from the census figures. In fact, the census would probably be much more correct as people would be more likely to be truthful on it because it is more anonymous.
I'm not saying it should be done instead of it but in conjunction with the census figures.There are a lot of people, particularly in rural Ireland who may not want their parents to know they are no longer catholic.
Is that just your opinion or do you have facts to back it up?0 -
In response to the "why do you care, you can just not practice" argument, I think the State organizes itself with some regard to the religious (or non-religious) breakdown of the population. Certainly with regard to the funding of faith-based schools, decisions as to whether to keep some open or replace with non-denominational schools or schools of other faiths, you would think would be made with some consideration of the stance of the local population on religion. I'm sure there are other examples where the State funds denominational organizations - hospitals maybe? Anyway, if a religious organization is overrepresenting its strength, there may be an imbalace of government support for it at the expense of others.0
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Eh no it isn't.Surely people are allowed to chose whatever religon they want....
The sheer hypocrisy of this is unreal...i mean they're (rc church) are only to happy to take on protestant converts but if any catholic wants to jump ship its a big no no
How exactly do the RCC prevent people from converting? Do they threaten them with death like a certain other religion? I think you'll find that they don't. The mere fact that people here on boards.ie may have once been baptised but constantly criticise Catholicism and Religion in general is testament to the fact that the RCC does not restrict anyone's freedom of religious opinion through the mere presence of their names on a register.0 -
whydoibother? wrote: »In response to the "why do you care, you can just not practice" argument, I think the State organizes itself with some regard to the religious (or non-religious) breakdown of the population. Certainly with regard to the funding of faith-based schools, decisions as to whether to keep some open or replace with non-denominational schools or schools of other faiths, you would think would be made with some consideration of the stance of the local population on religion. I'm sure there are other examples where the State funds denominational organizations - hospitals maybe? Anyway, if a religious organization is overrepresenting its strength, there may be an imbalace of government support for it at the expense of others.
But the government would make those decisions based on census numbers, not over-inflated claims from a biased party.
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The schools and the "doctrines" they teach is, and has been, decided by the secular authorities for years. The only exception being the religion classes, unexamined, and unimportant to most students. The whole THE CHURCH IS CONTROLLING OUR MINDS is trite fashionable nonsense.
Catholic Schools are given special protection from the Equal Status Act. Under the terms of the Act they can have the right to refuse the enrolment of non-baptised children. Now, while this is a rare occurance, it is not unknown for them to give preference of enrolment to Catholics over non-Catholics.
This would not be an issue if the State were to provide the alternative to parents of enroling their children in non-denominational schools, but for the majority of the country, this option is not available.
As a result, many parents have their children baptised for the sole reson of ensuring that the local school accepts them without any prejudice. This is simply unnaceptable - the state has an obligation both to provide free education for children and to avoid discriminating on the basis of religious belief, but in the absence of providing any alternative, this isn't the case.
Many parents would prefer that their children are not taught by schools run under the Catholic ethos - it is not just a case of them having to attend a half hour of religion classes every week & learning a few prayers - the issue is much greater than that.
And I never mentioned anything about the Church trying to control our minds - if you want to win a debate by putting words into my mouth & then shooting them down, you really have to try harder than that.0 -
Again, that is the census. The state do not rely on the Church to provide them with demographical statistics. That would make absolutely no sense as it's quite clear that Catholicism is not the only religion in Ireland.whydoibother? wrote: »In response to the "why do you care, you can just not practice" argument, I think the State organizes itself with some regard to the religious (or non-religious) breakdown of the population. Certainly with regard to the funding of faith-based schools, decisions as to whether to keep some open or replace with non-denominational schools or schools of other faiths, you would think would be made with some consideration of the stance of the local population on religion. I'm sure there are other examples where the State funds denominational organizations - hospitals maybe? Anyway, if a religious organization is overrepresenting its strength, there may be an imbalace of government support for it at the expense of others.0 -
The religion statistics don't mean anything, I'm not sure why you find that difficult to understand.
They're a breakdown of the religious make-up of the country.Why should I? How would you like it if you couldn't choose Catholic? If that was classed as 'other'?
I chose no religion. The ones listed on the 2011 form are the most common chosen in 2006.I'm not saying it should be done instead of it but in conjunction with the census figures.
Why?Is that just your opinion or do you have facts to back it up?
I know many people in that situation. For example, I know an aehtiest who went to mass til she was 25 so mammy wouldn't be upset but still put "no religion" on the form.0 -
partyatmygaff wrote: »That's what the census is for. As for them not allowing you to leave, that's not true. You're free to cease taking part in any activities related to the Catholic Church and change denomination or religion entirely. They're not going to knock down your door and force you to stay a member. Your presence on the baptismal register is perfectly valid and will always remain valid regardless of your changing opinions. If you were baptised, you stay on the register of people who were baptised. It's an event that occurred at some point in your life and was recorded and I don't see why it's necessary to remove that record.
As you completely ignored my last post which was in reply to the same issue regarding your point about baptismal registers, I'll post it again for you..You are missing the point entirely. Whether or not a baptismal record is kept is irrelevant.
The simple fact is that in April last, the Catholic Church modified the Code of Canon Law to remove all references to the act of formal defection which effectively blocks all attempts at people to officially leave their religion.
In doing so, they are contravening all the human rights laws that have been in place in the western world since the 1940s.
This - very simply put - is an affront to the freedom of humans and their rights to choose not to be considered part of a religion if they so wish.
I fail to understand how you cannot grasp the concept that the act of the Church in April, was an attempt to reduce basic human liberties and as such is something that should be stood up to & challenged.
You may not feel that it is an important issue, but that does not mean that it isn't one and the fact that you continue to challenge people who place a higher value on intellectual freedom than you do, has a lot more to say about you than them.
In other words, it has little to do with records & everything to do with a persons right to a formal recognition from the Catholic Church - or any religion - that they are no longer connected to or affiliated with that religion.0 -
UglyBolloxFace wrote: »As of recently, you can delete your Boards account.
That doesn't sound right.......?0 -
partyatmygaff wrote: »Eh no it isn't.
How exactly do the RCC prevent people from converting? Do they threaten them with death like a certain other religion? I think you'll find that they don't. The mere fact that people here on boards.ie may have once been baptised but constantly criticise Catholicism and Religion in general is testament to the fact that the RCC does not restrict anyone's freedom of religious opinion through the mere presence of their names on a register.
by not letting them leave in the first place...as the OP has stated0 -
partyatmygaff wrote: »Again, that is the census. The state do not rely on the Church to provide them with demographical statistics. That would make absolutely no sense as it's quite clear that Catholicism is not the only religion in Ireland.
One person fills out the census for a household. They can get it wrong. Many in this country are "Catholic by default". Not having discussed their religious views with their parents, they become Catholic.
I never suggested that the Catholic Church would provide statistics for all religions.
The demographic of an area could change considerably between one census and the next.
It's odd to suggest that people funding a denominational organization wouldn't take representations from the people running it. Reference is often made when planning, Government spending, to reports and conclusions that are not independent, that are opinions from private organizations, and nothing to do with the census.0 -
They're a breakdown of the religious make-up of the country.
That doesn't mean anything though, it doesn't change or affect anything.I chose no religion. The ones listed on the 2011 form are the most common chosen in 2006.
Most common religions don't mean anything to someone who has another religion, you shouldn't have to have a choice of the most common or else other. To those people then the only religion that is important is their own and why should their particular religion not be counted?Why?
It is more accurate that way, you said that drastic changes in the census answers could lead to changes in the constitution to get rid of references to God. If thousands and thousands and people were actively leaving the church each year then talks about changing the constitution would be even more likely to occur. I think removing your name from the church is a much stronger, more final stance than just selecting 'no religion'I know many people in that situation. For example, I know an aehtiest who went to mass til she was 25 so mammy wouldn't be upset but still put "no religion" on the form.
I was about to go back and edit that part of my last post because regardless of proof I do know myself that there are people like that.
However, if people were seen to be leaving, then more discussions would take place, people would be more likely to make their own decision rather than worrying about other people.
Time and time again I see friends getting their babies christened, the only reasons are because they want a day out and 'just in case'.
Now these people will say that they are not religious in the slightest but "oh I would just like to have him/her christened." It's a silly thing people do without realising that it's a ridiculous thing to do when you don't believe in the church.
I stupidly and naively had my son christened, I was a young mum and I actually feel so guilty about having him christened now into what I consider to be an evil organisation.
My daughter is not christened, When I had her and people were asking me when the christening was going to be (for the party of course) I just said I hadn't gotten around to it yet but that wasn't the truth, the truth was that I wasn't a believer and didn't want to do it and at the back of my mind was that piece of my brain that remained brainwashed into believing that it was something you had to do to ensure they got to heaven.
I say that as someone who was never religious, didn't know what I believed in and didn't really care but it just goes to show that some people are pretty much non believers but yet there is that small element of fear that you'll go to hell for not believing in God just in case he does end up being real.
One day it completely lifted off me, I don't have that little nagging feeling saying "what if he is real and you haven't christened her". The fear completely left and it was such a relief. I told my parents that I wouldn't be having the christening, my mother was afraid to tell my granny which is just ridiculous when you think about it but personally I feel so much more open to religion now than ever!0 -
That doesn't mean anything though, it doesn't change or affect anything.
It does. It affects how decisions are made in relation to all sorts of things.Most common religions don't mean anything to someone who has another religion, you shouldn't have to have a choice of the most common or else other. To those people then the only religion that is important is their own and why should their particular religion not be counted?
It is counted, under "other" you can write the name of the religion if you want.It is more accurate that way, you said that drastic changes in the census answers could lead to changes in the constitution to get rid of references to God. If thousands and thousands and people were actively leaving the church each year then talks about changing the constitution would be even more likely to occur. I think removing your name from the church is a much stronger, more final stance than just selecting 'no religion'
What makes you think the churches records would be more accurate? What makes you think they'd even supply details of the number of people leaving?I was about to go back and edit that part of my last post because regardless of proof I do know myself that there are people like that.
However, if people were seen to be leaving, then more discussions would take place, people would be more likely to make their own decision rather than worrying about other people.
Time and time again I see friends getting their babies christened, the only reasons are because they want a day out and 'just in case'.
Now these people will say that they are not religious in the slightest but "oh I would just like to have him/her christened." It's a silly thing people do without realising that it's a ridiculous thing to do when you don't believe in the church.
I stupidly and naively had my son christened, I was a young mum and I actually feel so guilty about having him christened now into what I consider to be an evil organisation.
My daughter is not christened, When I had her and people were asking me when the christening was going to be (for the party of course) I just said I hadn't gotten around to it yet but that wasn't the truth, the truth was that I wasn't a believer and didn't want to do it and at the back of my mind was that piece of my brain that remained brainwashed into believing that it was something you had to do to ensure they got to heaven.
I say that as someone who was never religious, didn't know what I believed in and didn't really care but it just goes to show that some people are pretty much non believers but yet there is that small element of fear that you'll go to hell for not believing in God just in case he does end up being real.
One day it completely lifted off me, I don't have that little nagging feeling saying "what if he is real and you haven't christened her". The fear completely left and it was such a relief. I told my parents that I wouldn't be having the christening, my mother was afraid to tell my granny which is just ridiculous when you think about it but personally I feel so much more open to religion now than ever!
So maybe you understand why people would be more inclined to be truthful on the census and why it would provide a more accurate view.0 -
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It does. It affects how decisions are made in relation to all sorts of things.
That's debatable!It is counted, under "other" you can write the name of the religion if you want.
So could I write Taylaism? Would that be counted?What makes you think the churches records would be more accurate? What makes you think they'd even supply details of the number of people leaving?
I don't think they would release them, that's not the point. I said earlier that if people were allowed to leave and the government could get their hands on the statistics that it would be a good indicator of the popularity of the church. I didn't say they would release them
They could include a question on the census, have you left the Catholic church since the last census which people could answer if they wanted to.So maybe you understand why people would be more inclined to be truthful on the census and why it would provide a more accurate view.
No, I don't agree.
Normally the form is filled out by one person, nothing to back this up with but presumably they would write Catholic for all members of the family.
You're presuming that someone who 'pretends' to be Catholic to their parents would decide to be more truthful on the form, I don't know if they would be.0
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