Violation of Human Rights? - Not being able to leave the Catholic Church

Son Of A Vidic

OP - When did this change to Cannon Law occur? And are you seriously bothered by the dictates of a Church you wish to leave? Anyway it provides a prefect illustration to all that is wrong with The Roman Church. With their constant Man made amendments and rule changes to suit thier own ends.

partyatmygaff

starbelgrade wrote: »

As you completely ignored my last post which was in reply to the same issue regarding your point about baptismal registers, I'll post it again for you..

In other words, it has little to do with records & everything to do with a persons right to a formal recognition from the Catholic Church - or any religion - that they are no longer connected to or affiliated with that religion.

That would be a lie however, wouldn't it? If you were baptised by the Catholic Church you are linked in some way to the Church. Unless you can go back in time and prevent your baptism from taking place I don't see how you can "erase" that link from your life.

fryup wrote: »

by not letting them leave in the first place...as the OP has stated

Nonsense. I know Catholics who've converted to other denominations. The Catholic church did not prevent them from doing so. I am sure the same holds true for apostates and people who convert to other religions.

Defiler Of The Coffin

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Like a lot of people in our little country, I was baptised as a child. And for the communion and confirmation - I only did this for the money.

Looking back on it, they are the three biggest mistakes of my life. I no longer want to be a part of this disgusting organisation, and as such I want to leave.

Countmeout.ie, a website dedicated to helping people leave the church, was a great thing for people like me. But no, I am unable to leave because the church changed the 'Canon Law' which governs this stuff (because people were leaving in their droves), and this led to the countmeout website becoming defunct, in a sense. So technically, in their eyes, I am a catholic forever.

Freedom of Religion is a a fundamental human right. But how am I supposed to exercise this right if I am being forced to remain a member of the catholic church against my will? What right do the church have to do this to me and countless others?

Would I have a case in the EU Court? - i.e. the catholic church forcing me to remain a member of their sect and therefore infringing on my human right of freedom of religion? If so, how would I go about it?

I know I probably won't get the serious answers here in AH, but I think there will be some people out there in the same position as me, and I'd like to hear from them suggestions etc.

Infringing on your human rights?! You must be having a laugh. No-one from the Catholic Church will stop you from practising any other religion you like. Don't be such a drama-queen. If it was Mormonism you had posted about you wouldn't have got a quarter of the thanks.

UglyBolloxFace

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Infringing on your human rights?! You must be having a laugh. No-one from the Catholic Church will stop you from practising any other religion you like. Don't be such a drama-queen. If it was Mormonism you had posted about you wouldn't have got a quarter of the thanks.

Well technically, switching to another religion is not what I'm talking about. I am talking about leaving the Catholic Church altogether, and I don't want to switch to another church. Regardless of why I want to the leave, I should be able to leave full stop, without first having to switch to another religion.

Why won't they allow me to switch from this Catholicism, which was forced upon me, to Atheism? Why did they change the Canon Law to stop people leaving? Answer those questions. Although I seriously doubt you'll be able to.

Defiler Of The Coffin

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Well technically, switching to another religion is not what I'm talking about. I am talking about leaving the Catholic Church altogether, and I don't want to switch to another church. Regardless of why I want to the leave, I should be able to leave full stop, without first having to switch to another religion.

Why won't they allow me to switch from this Catholicism, which was forced upon me, to Atheism? Why did they change the Canon Law to stop people leaving? Answer those questions. Although I seriously doubt you'll be able to.

Who cares why they won't let you 'leave'? By taking this seriously you are giving the canon laws legitimacy.

If you yourself believe that you are out, then you are out. End of story.

partyatmygaff

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Well technically, switching to another religion is not what I'm talking about. I am talking about leaving the Catholic Church altogether, and I don't want to switch to another church. Regardless of why I want to the leave, I should be able to leave full stop, without first having to switch to another religion.

Why won't they allow me to switch from this Catholicism, which was forced upon me, to Atheism? Why did they change the Canon Law to stop people leaving? Answer those questions. Although I seriously doubt you'll be able to.

Hang on... does this mean you're really still a Catholic? Are people going to say "UglyBolloxFace is a Catholic" despite you going on huge tirades against the RCC and religion in general? Will the Catholic clergy still call you a Catholic while hearing your opinions? I think you'll find the answer is no. Your presence or lack thereof on a baptismal register (The nearest thing to a 'list of members' I would imagine they have) means absolutely nothing at the end of the day. They haven't disallowed you from "switching to atheism". If they had, you wouldn't be calling yourself an Atheist would you?

Your talking about this as if it's some huge horrible breach of freedom when in reality it's nothing more than you taking a trivial matter and blowing it way out of proportion. People actually suffering breaches of freedom and human rights deserve attention and support. This absolute "first world problem" nonsense does not.

UglyBolloxFace

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Who cares why they won't let you 'leave'? By taking this seriously you are giving the canon laws legitimacy.

If you yourself believe that you are out, then you are out. End of story.

Answer the questions I put forth to you in the previous post.

UglyBolloxFace

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Hang on... does this mean you're really still a Catholic? Are people going to say "UglyBolloxFace is a Catholic" despite you going on huge tirades against the RCC and religion in general? Will the Catholic clergy still call you a Catholic while hearing your opinions? I think you'll find the answer is no. Your presence or lack thereof on a baptismal register (The nearest thing to a 'list of members' I would imagine they have) means absolutely nothing at the end of the day. They haven't disallowed you from "switching to atheism". If they had, you wouldn't be calling yourself an Atheist would you?

Your talking about this as if it's some huge horrible breach of freedom when in reality it's nothing more than you taking a trivial matter and blowing it way out of proportion. People actually suffering breaches of freedom and human rights deserve attention and support. This absolute "first world problem" nonsense does not.

What is it to you how I spend my time and on what subjects I spend that time? If you have a problem with this thread, fuck off to another one. It's as simple as that really.

partyatmygaff

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

What is it to you how I spend my time and on what subjects I spend that time? If you have a problem with this thread, fuck off to another one. It's as simple as that really.

Nothing whatsoever. That said, this is a public forum. If you don't want people disagreeing with you and dismissing your thread then you shouldn't have posted it. It's all very strange how people get so worked up and angry about something as petty as this but don't give a damn and crack jokes when someone makes a thread about a real injustice in the world.

flanders1979

Op, you shouldn't take religion so seriously. Leave it to the coffin dodgers. Its all madness. It can be fun. I had to go to a month's mind mass up home lately and some old woman let out the longest fart in front of me. The church was half empty. I burst my hole laughing. Snot was flying over my face as I tried in vain to hold back. It set off a my brother beside me. I needed a good laugh. I don't worry about goin to hell. Religion is mostly keeping up appearances. A way of showing respect. No one is forcing it on you.

Benny_Cake

Tayla wrote: »

I don't think they would release them, that's not the point. I said earlier that if people were allowed to leave and the government could get their hands on the statistics that it would be a good indicator of the popularity of the church. I didn't say they would release them.

Believe it or not, do you know what the Catholic Church relies on for membership figures? The census!

When you are baptised in a church in this country, the record disappears into a dusty archive in the parish, and will only re-emerge should that person celebrate First Communion or Confirmation, if they get married in a Catholic Church, or if, decades later, a descendant decides to do some genealogical research. The baptismal cert will stay with the parish you were baptised in. The only figures that the Catholic Church keeps that are in any way accurate are the numbers of baptisms. Since you were baptised, you can't be unbaptised, just as if you once joined Fianna Fail and left, you will appear in some old file or database. So the Catholic Church doesn't keep membership figures, there is no way it could. If a bishop wants to find out how many Catholics are in the country, he checks the closest thing to an accurate figure that exists - the census. So the religion that you state you are on the census is the one that counts, and if you say you're not a Catholic, then you're not a Catholic.

UglyBolloxFace

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Nothing whatsoever. That said, this is a public forum. If you don't want people disagreeing with you and dismissing your thread then you shouldn't have posted it. It's all very strange how people get so worked up and angry about something as petty as this but don't give a damn and crack jokes when someone makes a thread about a real injustice in the world.

Oh I welcome and appreciate opinions, I really do. But aside from giving your opinion, you're blatantly dismissing mine, which is the opinion that I should be allowed to leave the Catholic Church completely. (you can't deny you're doing that - just read over your previous posts).

I know this may not seem like such a pressing issue when compared to genocides and war (obviously) around the world, but to me it is important.

starbelgrade

partyatmygaff wrote: »

That would be a lie however, wouldn't it? If you were baptised by the Catholic Church you are linked in some way to the Church. Unless you can go back in time and prevent your baptism from taking place I don't see how you can "erase" that link from your life.

It's not a question of erasing part of your past from your life, it's a question of deciding as an adult that you wish to be officially recognised by the Church that you no longer have any affiliation with them.

I honestly cannot comprehend why you or anyone else would have an issue with this. My feeling is from what you & many others posted - who are arguing against what the OP is suggesting - is that you simply fail to understand the concept.

There's not really any other explanation for it.

Did you talk to a priest about it yet Ugly. I was thinking of doing that myself

KeithAFC

I think UglyBolloxFace is perfectly right in what he is saying about the Roman Catholic Church. I think he is really annoyed that his name is linked to one of the most evil organisations on the planet which is famous for abusing children and sending out wrong information via Dogma which leads to innocent people who know no better dying.

I fully support him in this fight against Rome and its awful Canon Laws.

MagicSean

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Why won't they allow me to switch from this Catholicism, which was forced upon me, to Atheism?

They aren't stopping you.

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Why did they change the Canon Law to stop people leaving?

The formal defection process was introduced for a specific set of people for a specific purpose related to marriage. It was never intended to encompass everyone who wished to defect from the church. The official reason for the change was as a result of difficulties which arose for the specific set of people the process was intended for, in particular for those who wished to rejoin or remarry.

MagicSean

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think UglyBolloxFace is perfectly right in what he is saying about the Roman Catholic Church. I think he is really annoyed that his name is linked to one of the most evil organisations on the planet which is famous for abusing children and sending out wrong information via Dogma which leads to innocent people who know no better dying.

I fully support him in this fight against Rome and its awful Canon Laws.

Of course you do.

Defiler Of The Coffin

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Answer the questions I put forth to you in the previous post.

Fine

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Why won't they allow me to switch from this Catholicism, which was forced upon me, to Atheism?

They are allowing you to switch from Catholicism to Atheism. By not actively disallowing you, they are allowing you. You don't need a signed statement from the Pope releasing you from Catholicism.

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Why did they change the Canon Law to stop people leaving?

I don't know. But as you seem to have difficulty understanding, Canon Law never had any standing in the first place. The church can change Canon Law to have me imprisoned for not attending mass on a Sunday, does that give them authority over me? No. The church can change Canon Law to stop people from leaving, does that mean people can't leave? No.

Do you understand?

UglyBolloxFace

MagicSean wrote: »

They aren't stopping you.

Go on so, tell me how I can do this, if it's so simple.

Defiler Of The Coffin

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think UglyBolloxFace is perfectly right in what he is saying about the Roman Catholic Church. I think he is really annoyed that his name is linked to one of the most evil organisations on the planet which is famous for abusing children and sending out wrong information via Dogma which leads to innocent people who know no better dying.

I fully support him in this fight against Rome and its awful Canon Laws.

Sometimes I really do wonder if you are a wind-up merchant

Tayla

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Believe it or not, do you know what the Catholic Church relies on for membership figures? The census!

When you are baptised in a church in this country, the record disappears into a dusty archive in the parish, and will only re-emerge should that person celebrate First Communion or Confirmation, if they get married in a Catholic Church, or if, decades later, a descendant decides to do some genealogical research. The baptismal cert will stay with the parish you were baptised in. The only figures that the Catholic Church keeps that are in any way accurate are the numbers of baptisms. Since you were baptised, you can't be unbaptised, just as if you once joined Fianna Fail and left, you will appear in some old file or database. So the Catholic Church doesn't keep membership figures, there is no way it could. If a bishop wants to find out how many Catholics are in the country, he checks the closest thing to an accurate figure that exists - the census. So the religion that you state you are on the census is the one that counts, and if you say you're not a Catholic, then you're not a Catholic.

My point is that they include all baptised people as members of the church. You can't be unbaptised but they should have to destroy your baptism cert and therefore remove you as a member.

UglyBolloxFace

Deleted User wrote: »

Did you talk to a priest about it yet Ugly. I was thinking of doing that myself

I haven't got round to it yet, but I'm working on it at the moment. I will keep you updated. When are you going to speak with the priest in your area?

Tayla wrote: »

My point is that they include all baptised people as members of the church. You can't be unbaptised but they should have to destroy your baptism cert and therefore remove you as a member.

Good post. To all you who are defending the church here, answer me this - what's stopping them destroying the baptism cert?

partyatmygaff

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Oh I welcome and appreciate opinions, I really do. But aside from giving your opinion, you're blatantly dismissing mine, which is the opinion that I should be allowed to leave the Catholic Church completely. (you can't deny you're doing that - just read over your previous posts).

I'd never deny that. In fact I will reiterate what i've said.

My opinion is as follows:
My opinion is that your 'issue' is nothing more than a trivial non-issue blown way out of proportion as the RCC do not actually prevent you from 'leaving' the Catholic Church.

The issue here is that I view leaving an organisation as publicly saying you are no longer associated with the organisation and stopping any contact with the organisation in question. You however only think you've left an organisation is if a member of clergy -whose authority you no longer believe in- gives you a piece of paper assuring you that you've "left" the Church despite the fact that your name will not be removed from the baptismal register. It never should be either as it's a historical record, not a membership list that changes every day.

I know this may not seem like such a pressing issue when compared to genocides and war around the world, but to me it is important.

Perhaps it is to you. That's not why I am dismissing this thread. I am dismissing this thread because I am a bit shocked that so many people managed to rile themselves up, research and get active over an "issue" as petty as this but at most would give a "Isn't that just terrible?" if not cold hearted jokes at even the most terrible and huge breaches of human rights and freedom.

MagicSean

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Go on so, tell me how I can do this, if it's so simple.

Stop practicing catholicism.

KeithAFC

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

Sometimes I really do wonder if you are a wind-up merchant

Why should this person be denied his basic human rights in regards to this case? He does NOT want his name linked to the Roman Catholic Church. They should do the right thing and allow him to leave.

MagicSean

Tayla wrote: »

My point is that they include all baptised people as members of the church. You can't be unbaptised but they should have to destroy your baptism cert and therefore remove you as a member.

Why would they destroy a record?

starbelgrade

Defiler Of The Coffin wrote: »

I don't know. But as you seem to have difficulty understanding, Canon Law never had any standing in the first place. The church can change Canon Law to have me imprisoned for not attending mass on a Sunday, does that give them authority over me? No. The church can change Canon Law to stop people from leaving, does that mean people can't leave? No.

Do you understand?

Canon Law hasn't any authority in how people live their lives. You are right there. But Canon Law does have a standing in this issue because if the Church refuses to officially recognise that you are no longer a Catholic, they are not affording you a basic human right - the right of apostasy.

The Church cannot stop you from saying that you are a Catholic, but they can refuse to recognise it, which is essentially the same as them preventing you from leaving the Church.

Do you understand that?

I can break it down a bit simpler if you still have difficulty understanding.

Benny_Cake

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Good post. To all you who are defending the church here, answer me this - what's stopping them destroying the baptism cert?

I'd question if any organisation would destroy records indicating that particular individuals were once associated with it. A baptismal cert is a record that a particular event took place once. It doesn't indicate if you are still a Catholic or not, you could have joined another church, or religion, or rejected belief in God altogether. A baptismal cert has as much to say about you today as a photograph of you on your first birthday.

I have to say that as someone with an interest in history, research would be very difficult if people went around destroying historical documents.

partyatmygaff

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think UglyBolloxFace is perfectly right in what he is saying about the Roman Catholic Church. I think he is really annoyed that his name is linked to one of the most evil organisations on the planet which is famous for abusing children and sending out wrong information via Dogma which leads to innocent people who know no better dying.

I fully support him in this fight against Rome and its awful Canon Laws.

lol

The British Monarchy that you so dearly love oversaw and is associated with thousands of atrocities. Far more i'd say than the RCC. Funnilly enough, I don't see you distancing yourself from them.

UglyBolloxFace wrote: »

Good post. To all you who are defending the church here, answer me this - what's stopping them destroying the baptism cert?

The fact that it makes no sense whatsoever to do so perhaps? Baptism is not reversible according to their own doctrine. For them to actually take away your baptism they'd have to break their own teachings. There's also the fact that it's a historical record. Proof that you were baptised at a certain date at a certain time in a certain Parish. There's nothing that can be invalidated within it by you deciding to no longer be a Catholic.

purplepanda

KeithAFC wrote: »

I think UglyBolloxFace is perfectly right in what he is saying about the Roman Catholic Church. I think he is really annoyed that his name is linked to one of the most evil organisations on the planet which is famous for abusing children and sending out wrong information via Dogma which leads to innocent people who know no better dying.

I fully support him in this fight against Rome and its awful Canon Laws.

What about other powerful paedophile groupings in positions of power within society, often very organised? Or is the catholic church the only organisation that has paedophiles amongst it's membership? I personally only know of local Church of England Vicars who have been jailed for such crimes but don't assume that all protestant clerics are guilty.

I'm totally convinced these evil people have serious power & influence in Britain & Ireland at the highest levels of the establishment. :mad: