The Catholic Church Ate My Hamsters!

Father Damo

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056513606

Another day, another load of every post gets 50 thanks utter **** about the church.

This is just a general one Im throwing out there but, here we go:

Am I the only person on this forum who can say that the catholic church has never had a massively negative influence on my life?

In a nutshell, Im not religious. At all. Apart from weddings, funerals and baptisms I dont think Ive been to mass since the final school leaving mass when I was 17. My parents were never that much into it- we used to go now and again to be "seen" there and to appease the grandparents, as was the social thinking in Ireland up until the mid 90s. I remember it mainly as one hour on a Saturday night or Sunday morning of listening to an old man talking about god knows what, and of getting a bit of a buzz when you were allowed to go up for communion with all the grown ups once you were over 7. Apart from that it was a chance to pal about with your mates from school once the thing was over.

Didnt used to mind the mass at my grannys local tbh- her parish priest is a good guy and a right oul character and was frequently half pissed doing the mass. The sermons consisted of rambling long winded stories, sometimes with grossly inappropriate references (he once warbled on for 5 minutes about one of the best weddings he ever conducted, seemingly oblivious to the fact the wife was now facing a bigamy charge)

As for their influence on our education, in national school we never did religion more than once every 3 odd weeks from memory. We enjoyed it, mainly because 99% of the time we did nothing but English, Irish and Maths, and this was a welcome break. It wasnt even religion as such- it was a few prayers, a few stories about Jesus life and mostly just stuff on being a better upstanding citizen.

Once a year we would launch into a few days of intensive religious teaching, in preperation for the visit of the religious exmainer from the diocese. The teachers always seemed genuinely worried our knowledge of prayers and such wouldnt be up to scratch with the inspector. Every year without fail this priest would turn up, talk religion for 10 minutes and then spend the next hour more concerned with debating who would win the premiership, how far the Dubs would go in the gah and how our world cup/ European qualification hopes were going.



With all of the above in mind, to me the church is, for anyone growing up in the 90s, nothing more than some side organisation, of whom involvement with it was pretty voluntary and not all consuming. One hour of boredom every other Sunday until I was about 12 didnt really scar me that badly. I can, for obvious reasons, sympathise with people who had to endure their nonsense back in the day, but tbh they had lost most of their grip by the 80s. I just find anyone under the age of 30 who is a millitant athiest without good reason ("good reason" being molestation, primarily tbh) to be pathetic and a self embarassment. Anyone else of this view?

chucken1

Can I just say I was one of the ones who 'had to endure' their nonsense back in the day
Didnt make any odds to my life. As you said it was just a side thing..Mass on Sunday,funerals etc. Not a whole lot of influence on me at all.:)

Doc Ruby

Father Damo wrote: »

The Catholic Church Ate My Hamsters!

Good eatin in them things.

GLaDOS

You're lucky they didn't molest them first

Father Damo

chucken1 wrote: »

Can I just say I was one of the ones who 'had to endure' their nonsense back in the day
Didnt make any odds to my life. As you said it was just a side thing..Mass on Sunday,funerals etc. Not a whole lot of influence on me at all.:)

Indeed. I would know of a small amount of people of my age who had parents (mothers) so religious that yes, it would have had a negative impact on their childhood. There are also parents like Michael Jacksons dad, or the Williams sisters dad, who pushed their children so hard in their particular field that it may have resulted in a negative childhood. Hardly means music and tennis should be banned.

Athiesm certainly has a place in societies where there is a growing threat from fundamentalist Islam such as parts of Britain, France and Holland. In Ireland however IMO it just makes you look like a bit of a wally.

later12

The entire OP is a strawman argument.

Personally I don't have a problem with the Roman Catholic Church because it wastes other people's time on a Sunday or takes up too much of the school day. I couldn't give much of a rats arse about how private individuals choose to spend their time. That's not the main criticism directed at Roman Catholicism.

What I am concerned about, and what you have completely failed to address, is the lorryload of mediaeval, misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted rot which various religious establishments try to permeate into civilised society.

It's not that they do it because they're bad people or because they want to upset everyone. They do believe what they are teaching. Nevertheless, their bigotry and hatred is an impeding force in accepting differences and seeping their congregations in mindless aversion to their fellow man. And that's where it starts to negatively affect the non believer.

i'm not a militant atheist, I have a general aversion to anyone who calls themselves such a thing. However, I am deeply concerned with the practices and the teachings of all of the major established faiths, most relevantly in our case Roman Catholicism, and the impact this has on civil society.

It has nothing to do with getting the kids out of class for half an hour, or spending a hangover in a church pew.

The Internet Explorer

For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Exodus 35:2

joshrogan

Father Damo wrote: »

Indeed. I would know of a small amount of people of my age who had parents (mothers) so religious that yes, it would have had a negative impact on their childhood. There are also parents like Michael Jacksons dad, or the Williams sisters dad, who pushed their children so hard in their particular field that it may have resulted in a negative childhood. Hardly means music and tennis should be banned.

Athiesm certainly has a place in societies where there is a growing threat from fundamentalist Islam such as parts of Britain, France and Holland. In Ireland however IMO it just makes you look like a bit of a wally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland
You should read this

Yahew

With all of the above in mind, to me the church is, for anyone growing up in the 90s, nothing more than some side organisation, of whom involvement with it was pretty voluntary and not all consuming. One hour of boredom every other Sunday until I was about 12 didnt really scar me that badly. I can, for obvious reasons, sympathise with people who had to endure their nonsense back in the day, but tbh they had lost most of their grip by the 80s. I just find anyone under the age of 30 who is a millitant athiest without good reason ("good reason" being molestation, primarily tbh) to be pathetic and a self embarassment. Anyone else of this view?

The whole radical Atheist in 2012 thing reminds me of the 20,000 people who marched into Paris to liberate it as members of the resistance in 1945: only 2,000 of whom had actually resisted. The rest hid under their beds until it was safe to liberate Paris, after the Allies had liberated it first.

I was born in the mid-70's, into a not very religious family, met one religious teacher in school - who was a good scientist and teacher too.

They had little or no effect on me then, and none since. Every modern atheist seems to think they have been through a massive indoctrination cult and they alone are fighting the indoctrination; since most of them have been baptised, communed, and confirmed I take it they were late to atheism, the zeal of the converts.

Its partly a cult, itself. On Dawkins site he has a convert's corner, where people "see the light" at about the age of 22, or 32 which is 14 or 24 years too late. These guys, not unsurprisingly, become the most fervent anti-religious types.

There is something else going on here as well - it's all post 9/11. On September 10th 2001 the secular world was unconcerned about Christianity, some anti-immigrant groups were concerned about Islam. Post 2011 the reaction took two forms

1) In religious America, more Christianinty and open anti-Muslim feeling.
2) In non-religious Europe more hostility to all religions. With that cover, anti-Islam sentiment becomes acceptable.

Christianity is dead in Europe, in some countries it has been dead for 100 years. Most Catholic societies have Gay partnerships, or marriage - in Western Europe and in South America. As does mainline Protestantism.

So the anti-religious fervor which has accelerated since 9/11 wants to attack the sky fairies and beliefs of Islam; but they mainly attack the sky-fairies of the Christians around them. Challenging the beliefs of the 60 year olds, and older, with their little rosaries hobbling to mass every day is safer than petitioning a Mosque. Safer and more PC.

But most importantly, safer.

Overheal

Father Damo wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056513606

Another day, another load of every post gets 50 thanks utter **** about the church.

This is just a general one Im throwing out there but, here we go:

Am I the only person on this forum who can say that the catholic church has never had a massively negative influence on my life?

Plato, The Allegory of the Cave

Just because you don't see the walls of the world thats been built around you by the Catholic Church doesn't mean it hasn't had a negative impact on your life.

The Internet Explorer

Father Damo wrote: »

In Ireland however IMO it just makes you look like a bit of a wally.

In my opinion, this ignorant and unnecessary statement makes you look like a bit of a wally.

Paparazzo

Hitler never did anything bad to me, so I have no problem with him.
Godwined

Father Damo

later10 wrote: »

What I am concerned about, and what you have completely failed to address, is the lorryload of mediaeval, misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted rot which various religious establishments try to permeate into civilised society.
.

But if nobody is listening, who cares? Do you think your local parish priest actually thinks contraception is immoral? How many priests refuse to have anything to do with unmarried couples, or people of other faiths?

I think Father Ted summed it up very well in a few scenes. Namely, when Ted remarks that "the pope doesnt really mean what he says" or words to that effect. You know full well that this is likely the opinion of the vast majority of priests and the faithful.

Or the way all the lads looked at the young priest on the flight with a look of disbelief when he suggested having a prayer session was a viable option to save their lives and prevent the plane crashing. Or Ted leaving a pen and paper out in the hope God would write back with advice. It was all a very clever indictment that when you break it down most priests live in the real world after all.

In fact I think you could argue that through charities like the SVP the church today does alot more good than bad and asks for nothing in return from those it helps.

joshrogan

http://qkme.me/35p033

Father Damo

joshrogan wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland
You should read this

And you should read this

Father Damo wrote: »

. I just find anyone under the age of 30 who is a millitant athiest without good reason ("good reason" being molestation, primarily tbh) to be pathetic and a self embarassment.

I would certainly agree that athiesm has a place in American society. At the moment right wing Protestantism from the south is arguably a bigger threat to the western world than millitant Islam, seeing as lunatics like Sarah Palin have come reasonably close to getting a presidential berth. In Europe our nearest miss was Dana doing poorly in attempting to secure a ceremonial position.

dunnaman93

The Internet Explorer wrote: »

For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Exodus 35:2

Whut? lol

Father Damo

Overheal wrote: »

Plato, The Allegory of the Cave

Just because you don't see the walls of the world thats been built around you by the Catholic Church doesn't mean it hasn't had a negative impact on your life.

That is one of the funniest things Ive ever heard in my life.

The catholic church built walls around my personal freedoms?

Do me a fcuking favour. Catholicism for me provided me a good few great christening and wedding piss ups, a few quid in confirmation money and a hot milf of a secondary school religion teacher. Apart from these lofty things I cant say there was much negative about any of it.

PrincessLola

Father Damo wrote: »

With all of the above in mind, to me the church is, for anyone growing up in the 90s, nothing more than some side organisation, of whom involvement with it was pretty voluntary and not all consuming. One hour of boredom every other Sunday until I was about 12 didnt really scar me that badly. I can, for obvious reasons, sympathise with people who had to endure their nonsense back in the day, but tbh they had lost most of their grip by the 80s. I just find anyone under the age of 30 who is a millitant athiest without good reason ("good reason" being molestation, primarily tbh) to be pathetic and a self embarassment. Anyone else of this view?

While I agree with much of your post I feel I need to point out that some of of us raised in the 90s did have to endure that crap. Not necessarilly from schools, but from strictly religious parents (I knew quite a few like that).

As for 'militant atheist', one doesn't have to have suffered abuse at the hands of the church to be against it. Furthermore, 'atheist' just means not believing in any god, I didn't realise you needed a 'good reason' for it.

Kepti

Father Damo wrote: »

I just find anyone under the age of 30 who is a millitant athiest without good reason ("good reason" being molestation, primarily tbh) to be pathetic and a self embarassment. Anyone else of this view?

What is your definition of a militant atheist? And why is it only acceptable to be one if you've been molested by a priest?

GLaDOS

Father Damo wrote: »

That is one of the funniest things Ive ever heard in my life.

The catholic church built walls around my personal freedoms?

Do me a fcuking favour. Catholicism for me provided me a good few great christening and wedding piss ups, a few quid in confirmation money and a hot milf of a secondary school religion teacher. Apart from these lofty things I cant say there was much negative about any of it.

You've clearly never wanted to go to the pub on good Friday. Devastating stuff.

The Internet Explorer

Father Damo wrote: »

I would certainly agree that athiesm has a place in American society.

Please kindly look here.

Father Damo

ScienceNerd wrote: »

You've clearly never wanted to go to the pub on good Friday. Devastating stuff.

Haha, now that is one I plain forgot about.

But even at that, here in Australia, a country where the church- state relationship is almost non existant, all boozers and offys are closed on Good Friday. I think these days seeing as every government in the world is gone so nazi on how much we drink this will never be repealed, only for health rather than religious reasons.

Butterface

The OP doesn't know the definition of "athiesm". I'm embarrassed for him :eek:

newmug

later10 wrote: »

What I am concerned about, and what you have completely failed to address, is the lorryload of mediaeval, misogynistic, homophobic, bigoted rot which various religious establishments try to permeate into civilised society.

I'm a practicing Catholic, and I have never, ever, once witnessed any of that perpretrated by the Catholic Church.

Logical Fallacy

Father Damo wrote: »

With all of the above in mind, to me the church is, for anyone growing up in the 90s

90's kids freak me out. The internet was always there, they don't understand how awesome a keytar is, and fall to understand why MASK is better than Transformers.

Freaks.

Father Damo

Kepti wrote: »

What is your definition of a militant atheist? And why is it only acceptable to be one if you've been molested by a priest?

A millitant athiest is someone who has some sort of victim wish about their childhood. They seem to wish they were a survivor of the catholic cult and their nefarious ways. They peddle crap about the church dominating national school education as if to suggest its ran like a Pakistani madrassa. Whilst all the while probably having grown up like the rest of us. Its an embarassment.

Ive no problem with people who endured a bad childhood because of the church or because of parents who followed the church line too rigidly. But for the 95% who had a regular childhood, cop on.

Manach

The usual anti-catholic gripes, where the poor state of youth services in this and the previous services gets completely ignored by those who blame the church of all the problem that were, are, and will be in Irish society,

AngryBollix

joshrogan wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_Ireland
You should read this

Whatever point you tried to make has been utterly invalidated by the use of a wikipedia article. Surely you could have done better

GLaDOS

newmug wrote: »

I'm a practicing Catholic, and I have never, ever, once witnessed any of that perpretrated by the Catholic Church.

Here's some from just the other day

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/09/us-pope-gay-idUSTRE8081RM20120109

chucken1

ScienceNerd wrote: »

You've clearly never wanted to go to the pub on good Friday. Devastating stuff.

You should've popped down the country in 2010...Great rugby was played and the pubs were open in Limerick

GLaDOS

chucken1 wrote: »

You should've popped down the country in 2010...Great rugby was played and the pubs were open in Limerick

Rugby and Limerick... glad I just stocked up on cans thanks

Guill

When you can look at the world though an open mind then you will see the damage that religion has done and continues to do, it may not be directly targeted at you, but it is damaging all the same.

Father Damo

Guill wrote: »

When you can look at the world though an open mind then you will see the damage that religion has done and continues to do, it may not be directly targeted at you, but it is damaging all the same.

Of course.

Cults, Scientology, fundamentalist Islam and Southern States Apple Pie Christianity are certainly destroying lives.

I think even the most rabid frothing athiest wouldnt argue against the assertion that the catholic church does alot more good than bad these days in terms of humanitarian work to people of all faiths.

AngryBollix

Father Damo wrote: »

And you should read this



I would certainly agree that athiesm has a place in American society. At the moment right wing Protestantism from the south is arguably a bigger threat to the western world than millitant Islam, seeing as lunatics like Sarah Palin have come reasonably close to getting a presidential berth. In Europe our nearest miss was Dana doing poorly in attempting to secure a ceremonial position.

On the one hand you highlight "right wing protestianism" as a bigger threat to the western world than militant islam without mentioning the fact that these right wing protestants wouldnt be in a position of international political power and influence without the support of the majority of the american electorate. While religious persuasion is often a factor in the outcome of US elections it isnt the be all and end all.

Butterface

You're using the word athiest to describe people who are fervently anti-Catholic. Not all athiests are anti-religion. You should change the wording on your post, so as not to spread your ignorance.

chucken1

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Rugby and Limerick... glad I just stocked up on cans thanks

I was just pointing out that the pubs were open

Paparazzo

Kepti wrote: »

What is your definition of a militant atheist? And why is it only acceptable to be one if you've been molested by a priest?

Good point. Similar to my Hitler one.

Father Damo, if I didn't like some paedo in the newspapers, would I be pathetic because ne never actually molested me?

Father Damo

Butterface wrote: »

You're using the word athiest to describe people who are fervently anti-Catholic. Not all athiests are anti-religion. You should change the wording on your post, so as not to spread your ignorance.

But that is my exact point. If people dont believe in religion, fair enough. I will get my kids christened out of tradition, but do I believe in it? I havent a clue, its simply something I have never given much thought to. I also dont know whether I believe in aliens, or ghosts. Or whether Nostradamus was right or a chancer. I just dont engage with things I cant see for myself and I dont let it rule my life.

But there is a difference in not believing and engaging in cult like hero worship of Richard Dawkins, buying his sh1te books and filling his bank account. Its cult like behaviour in itself. I think Christopher Hitchens put it best in saying about his impending death that he didnt believe in God or heaven but that he wouldnt mind a surprise :pac:

joshrogan

AngryBollix wrote: »

Whatever point you tried to make has been utterly invalidated by the use of a wikipedia article. Surely you could have done better

What is wrong with using Wikipedia outside of academia?

Father Damo

Paparazzo wrote: »

Good point. Similar to my Hitler one.

Father Damo, if I didn't like some paedo in the newspapers, would I be pathetic because ne never actually molested me?

Say there's 200 million priests in the world, and 5% of them are paedophiles, that's still only 10 million.


Had to throw the Ted one in there People seem to forget that when all this was happening in the industrial schools there was Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, the Gardai, the health boards....there was all these different organisations who failed to act or turned a blind eye to what was happening, not just the church.

AngryBollix

Guill wrote: »

When you can look at the world though an open mind then you will see the damage that religion has done and continues to do, it may not be directly targeted at you, but it is damaging all the same.

What about the flip side to that coin?

While nobody can deny the harm that has been caused in the name of god and religion, decent people of faith have improved the lives of those around them and done good work which is sometimes overlooked

GLaDOS

Father Damo wrote: »

But there is a difference in not believing and engaging in cult like hero worship of Richard Dawkins, buying his sh1te books and filling his bank account.

A lot of atheists (both and anti-religious and indifferent) dislike Dawkins quite a bit.

I think your understanding of Atheism is flawed.

AngryBollix

joshrogan wrote: »

What is wrong with using Wikipedia outside of academia?

Relax. It was somewhat tongue in cheek.

later12

Father Damo wrote: »

But if nobody is listening, who cares?

I generally agree with this motto.

The problem is that some people evidently do listen. Catholic morality can, and does, seep into everyday life and influence the public perception of morality at large.

Not only is the illegality of abortion in Ireland likely to be the relic of Ireland's special relationship with Roman Catholicism, but the artifact of that relationship is even to be seen in cases where the state has legistlated relatively recently. One example which comes immediately to mind is Irish divorce law (despite the fact that divorce is finally legal, it still takes a ridiculously long time to secure a divorce in Ireland).

In Ireland, and around Europe, the Christian churches' various positions on homosexuality are reasonably argued to have greatly influenced public morality and therefore fostered a distaste for full gay marriage rights on an ongoing basis.

The influence of the church can affect individuals in society in a non legislative manner as well. It can be seen in the families who have to hide their marital problems from (usually) elder family members, or who keep sexual orientation quiet so as not to upset such family members - the implication for the individuals concerned being that there is something morally questionable about their identity or situation.

Your line of reasoning completely fails to engage with the influence of Catholic philosophy upon Irish society, a philosophy which I feel still resonates with a significant cohort of the population, whether they be direct believers or passive pew fillers.

joshrogan

AngryBollix wrote: »

Relax. It was somewhat tongue in cheek.

Next time I demand the use of the :pac:

newmug

ScienceNerd wrote: »

Here's some from just the other day

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/09/us-pope-gay-idUSTRE8081RM20120109

So now its wrong to oppose gay marraige?

The word homophobia reminds me more of the incident in Scotland where a gay was handcuffed to a lamppost and set on fire, not an opinion that gay marraige might undermine the place of the family unit in society.

Not everybody is ok with gayness, Catholic or not.

AngryBollix

joshrogan wrote: »

Next time I demand the use of the :pac:

Kepti

Father Damo wrote: »

But there is a difference in not believing and engaging in cult like hero worship of Richard Dawkins, buying his sh1te books and filling his bank account. Its cult like behaviour in itself. I think Christopher Hitchens put it best in saying about his impending death that he didnt believe in God or heaven but that he wouldnt mind a surprise :pac:

That's akin to saying that Harry Potter fans are like a cult. You're just arguing against a caricature that you've invented.

Bannasidhe

newmug wrote: »

So now its wrong to oppose gay marraige?

The word homophobia reminds me more of the incident in Scotland where a gay was handcuffed to a lamppost and set on fire, not an opinion that gay marraige might undermine the place of the family unit in society.

Not everybody is ok with gayness, Catholic or not.

WTF? Its' only homophobia if you're manacled and set on fire?????:eek:


'Not everybody is ok with gayness, Catholic or not' - oh, well. It that case....:rolleyes:

later12

newmug wrote: »

So now its wrong to oppose gay marraige?

You sound surprised that it would be wrong to deny someone the facility of marriage - which to my mind amounts to a tax arrangement, but also next of kin decisions, child custody and adoption law - solely on the basis that the other partner has a pair of balls where his vagina would be.

What exactly is the relevance of that pair of balls to the refusal to grant an individual the right to marriage?

Father Damo

later10 wrote: »

I generally agree with this motto.

The problem is that some people evidently do listen. Catholic morality can, and does, seep into everyday life and influence the public perception of morality at large.

I will certainly agree with that one. Living in Australia Ive known alot of English people obviously, and alot of birdss will casually talk about having pulled some lad the night before and going back to his the same way me and the lads would talk about pulling a bird. I could probably count on my fingers the amount of Irish girls who Ive ever heard talking that frankly infront of men, hell in Ireland even slappers get offended by people insinuitating they have been about- certainly would be a leftover from the church thinking Id agree.

The influence of the church can affect individuals in society in a non legislative manner as well. It can be seen in the families who have to hide their marital problems from (usually) elder family members, or who keep sexual orientation quiet so as not to upset such family members - the implication for the individuals concerned being that there is something morally questionable about their identity or situation.

One should wonder though, is this Catholic or is this Celtic? How come certain, shall we say, tougher, warrior type cultures like the descendants of Romans, Celts, large swathes of Eastern Europe etc etc seem to replicate stronger religious and moral beliefs in the culture of modern day Italy, Greece and Ireland , whereas the Dutch, French, English etc etc have more liberal views. Were we conservative before the church and found its moral code to be in line with what we had already?