Cheap meat for fresh fed dog owners

dahat

DogsFirst wrote: »

Irish beef and lamb prices are through the roof altogether and now we're exporting all the organs too. Drives the prices sky high. Chicken is half the price and with the skin and bone included, far better nutritionally. More bang for your buck

Yes indeed but feeding chicken all the time is not good either.
I have small JRT type dogs and they are cheap to feed really,legs and thighs of the chicken are all good value.I buy the hearts to give variety and any cheap offer i can afford.

DogsFirst

Totally agreed, nothing "all the time". Variety is vital to a balanced diet. Thats where dry food falls down. Trying to pack everything on to a cracker, fails for many reasons. NASA still can't get it right I always say (read a great article on the chief NASA nutritionist saying they haven't been able to formulate a complete diet for a number of reasons, like ingredients bouncing off each other, not that the astronauts would be too happy with crackers every day, but apparently your dog should be).

As a substantial part though, whole oily fish and chicken, cheapest and best. Beef doesn't have as good oils or vitamin content but has other stuff in abundance making it a great addition.

TooManyDogs

dahat wrote: »

Currently pay 50 cents per heart,10 hearts for 5.50 but another shop in town has them at 1 euro per heart!:eek:

Beef hearts are 4.00 per heart,Pork ones work out at 20 euro for a large bag of them,never actually counted them but alot of them there plus a brain or 3 too!

Bloody hell, 50c per heart is fantastic! Where do you get that?

The Sweeper

DogsFirst wrote: »

To avoid taking the thread off course I've pm'd you 35 studies that to date linking garlics benefits to hypotension (relaxing blood vessels), antioxidant activity and ability to reduce cardiovascular diseases (hence "good blood") as well as it's antimicrobial activity, anticancer activity, improving immune functions and anti-diabetic activity. All peer reviewed scientific studies, most of which investigate moderate doses and, most importantly, over time. Having worked with both sides I'm converted anyway, natural docs (human or vet) are rarely wrong on things they're been prescribing for millenia.

Didn't get a PM from you. Can you send it again?

Vince32

I'm thinking about what you said about the cheap meats (almost out of date) in supermarkets, and I'm wondering if I can mix some raw minced beef with the dry food?

If so, in what proportions? She gets 3x70g meals of the dry food.
So would I just use 20g beef + 50g dry?

EDIT: It doesn't have to be beef, chicken, lamb, fish is fine too right?

She just turned 19 weeks

DogsFirst

The Sweeper wrote: »

DogsFirst wrote: »

Didn't get a PM from you. Can you send it again?

Thought I sent it twice actually, no prob will send tmrw morn when I'm at the laptop, sorry 'bout that

DogsFirst

Vince32 wrote: »

I'm thinking about what you said about the cheap meats (almost out of date) in supermarkets, and I'm wondering if I can mix some raw minced beef with the dry food?

If so, in what proportions? She gets 3x70g meals of the dry food.
So would I just use 20g beef + 50g dry?

EDIT: It doesn't have to be beef, chicken, lamb, fish is fine too right?

She just turned 19 weeks

Young developing pups particularly need fresh meat, good protein and vits to form those joints and systems so get it in there. No fear. Forget the old "scraps" will kill him. Too much fat might but ordinary meat, fish and chicken etc. You can't overdose on protein, its not stored by the body. Hence athletes, body builders and dieters focus on protein instead of fat building carbs (americans....and us!).

In answer, fresh food is full of water so whatever you cut in the dry food double it in meat. take out 50g, put in 100g. Your dog is going to love it. Don't forget raw meaty bones. For young carnivores easy rule of thumb is muscle builds muscle, cartilidge builds cartlidge, bone builds bone.

dahat

TooManyDogs wrote: »

Bloody hell, 50c per heart is fantastic! Where do you get that?

Off the Local butcher and he is pretty pricey with his general meat!!
Bought 15 euro worth Thursday gone..not every week he has them,depends on when they slaughter lambs
I do get chicken necks off him for free when i want them but only now and again i get them tbh.

dahat

Vince32 wrote: »

I'm thinking about what you said about the cheap meats (almost out of date) in supermarkets, and I'm wondering if I can mix some raw minced beef with the dry food?

If so, in what proportions? She gets 3x70g meals of the dry food.
So would I just use 20g beef + 50g dry?

EDIT: It doesn't have to be beef, chicken, lamb, fish is fine too right?

She just turned 19 weeks

Do not mix both foods in the same meal,bacteria problems from what i know.
It is ok to feed a 50/50 diet just have the dry and raw food fed on different days.

dahat

Anyone with small to medium sized dogs get down to Lidl this week.
http://www.lidl.ie/cps/rde/xchg/lidl_ri_ie/hs.xsl/4182_17104.htm

TooManyDogs

Had a bargin in tescos myself last night, prime beef mince 1.45 from 4.99, but best of all pork liver 79c per pack down to 8c !!!! Happy days, straight into my freezer!

puddles22

got my 5 mth old husky back from the kennels today after been away for a week, she was so skiny and so lethargic , oh i was so mad, so i have to get her fattened up some , anyhow tried this recipe what do people think, 3 chicken breast. 6 smoked mackerel for thier high oil content, 1lb beef mince , mixed all these in the food processor, then four cups of rice and a bag of frozen vegtables boiled. mixed the lot together, now she wolfed it down and reckon i have enuff for next three days before i have time to make a month supply ,do people think this is a sensible diet for her to be on,

Irishchick

puddles22 wrote: »

got my 5 mth old husky back from the kennels today after been away for a week, she was so skiny and so lethargic , oh i was so mad, so i have to get her fattened up some , anyhow tried this recipe what do people think, 3 chicken breast. 6 smoked mackerel for thier high oil content, 1lb beef mince , mixed all these in the food processor, then four cups of rice and a bag of frozen vegtables boiled. mixed the lot together, now she wolfed it down and reckon i have enuff for next three days before i have time to make a month supply ,do people think this is a sensible diet for her to be on,

Not sure about the rice but the rest is all good. Make sure to add raw bone to the diet as well and vary the meat ie chicken one week beef the next rabbit next etc.

Edit: What was she being fed in the kennel??

puddles22

[QUOTE=

Edit: What was she being fed in the kennel??[/QUOTE]

they said kibble plus some wet food, but i dont know how many times a day they were feeding her, poor wee thing is just not herself at the moment grrrrrr

wobbles

If your tesco has a deli counter, head in about an hour before closing, they might have cooked chicken left over for half nothing. Grand to eat yourself, or give to the dog or for a bonding moment, share

dahat

Cappaquinn Chickens in Waterford sell a 5kg box of "pet food" for 60c a kilo.
I have gotten this a good few times,it is just meat that hit the floor or is damaged by the process it goes through...
A quality product for any RAW feeder..

DogsFirst

dahat wrote: »

Do not mix both foods in the same meal,bacteria problems from what i know.
It is ok to feed a 50/50 diet just have the dry and raw food fed on different days.

Not aware of any issues there myself. Not sure why adding fresh meat to dry would cause that, maybe I'm missing something.

Bacteria shouldn't make a healthy dog sick, they're designed to eat rotten corpses as scavenging carnivores (hence your dog can dig up old bones covered in septacemia and still be wagging his tail two hours later). Salmonellosis is so rare in dogs, and is a symptom of a sick, immunologically defunct animal, and is practically unheard of in raw fed dogs (with normal / healthy digestive systems). Some people say "this gave my dog this..." but it says nothing of the product and everything about the health of the animal at the time. With lysozymes abounding in their saliva and a pH1, healthy dogs are practically immune to "normal" moderate food contamination like Salmonella, Campo, Septacemia.

See previous board post for thoughts on mixing dry and fresh and possible barfing scenarios!

dahat

DogsFirst wrote: »

Not aware of any issues there myself. Not sure why adding fresh meat to dry would cause that, maybe I'm missing something.

Bacteria shouldn't make a healthy dog sick, they're designed to eat rotten corpses as scavenging carnivores (hence your dog can dig up old bones covered in septacemia and still be wagging his tail two hours later). Salmonellosis is so rare in dogs, and is a symptom of a sick, immunologically defunct animal, and is practically unheard of in raw fed dogs (with normal / healthy digestive systems). Some people say "this gave my dog this..." but it says nothing of the product and everything about the health of the animal at the time. With lysozymes abounding in their saliva and a pH1, healthy dogs are practically immune to "normal" moderate food contamination like Salmonella, Campo, Septacemia.

See previous board post for thoughts on mixing dry and fresh and possible barfing scenarios!

Just something i read in my time through google,your knowledge seems greater than mine so cant argue facts but personally i do not like to mix dry food and raw meat,different digestion rates maybe,not entirely sure though!

TooManyDogs

I think it's just one of those 'do-it-by-the-book' rules, so that if on the off chance a dog has something underlying that the raw food bacteria can't make it worse. Or should I say be blamed for causing it in the first place by whatever vet treats it!! It wouldn't bother me to feed raw and dry in the same meal when I've seen the gopping things my lot have eaten during their walks :eek:

I guess if people are being put under pressure by their vet or whoever about raw feeding being a bad idea then they might get comfort by being extra careful and not taking any chances no matter how small they might be.

DogsFirst

dahat wrote: »

Just something i read in my time through google,your knowledge seems greater than mine so cant argue facts but personally i do not like to mix dry food and raw meat,different digestion rates maybe,not entirely sure though!

Yeah I don't think anyone's entirely sure really, its a really fudged up issue, people are running around with their hair on fire. Re diff digestion times you might be right, nobody really knows the answer to that one but we eat awfully mixed up meals and different digestion times doesn't come into it. But I suppose our food spend longer in the stomach before passing to the intestines, giving everything a chance.......that said the dogs acidic system would process and digest meat and cooked gack like dry food very very quickly, can't see much resistance there. Raw plant fibre holds up very well in the dogs system though (that's why you should cook the veg a bit). Reckon if the meat is raw and plant is cooked then it won't matter what form it's in going in, it all ends up the same in the end!!!!

Vince32

I got some cheap tins of salmon ( store brand ) 418g €2, and gave 1/2 tin, with 1/2 kibble, and omg she ate it so fast I was worried she would throw up after ( hiccups )

She was really happy with the meal and licking the bowl for seconds, I think if I do this every 2nd / 3rd day it should be alright since the salmon was ready for human consumption.

I'll have to get a book on BARF or raw feeding, I'm not confident enough to try it without proper guidance, I do want to make the switch when she comes into adulthood and starts working, but considering calories, health issues, portion sizes and other stuff, I feel personally that more research is needed.

Thanks for the links I'll be reading with interest.

DogsFirst

tins of salmon €1.30 Aldi for 400g (Lidl less likely to have!)!!! Stock up!

remember aim for the stuff in brine, veg oil on dry food is too much veg oils, rises the omega 6 levels and causes problems (excess fat, not enough vitamin E in dry food to counteract), fish oil (omega 3) is where the benefits are!

DogsFirst

tins of salmon €1.30 Aldi for 400g (Lidl less likely to have!)!!! Stock up!

remember aim for the stuff in brine, veg oil on dry food is too much veg oils, rises the omega 6 levels and causes problems (excess fat, not enough vitamin E in dry food to counteract), fish oil (omega 3) is where the benefits are!

Vince32

Just read http://www.topdog.ie/content.php?151-Raw-BARF-Diet-FAQ and It answered alot of my questions and worries. I guess change is a scary business, but they do mention that feeding dry/raw mixed can in some cases cause bacterial problems, but then later on in the same article they say don't worry about salmonella, because the short GI track means the bacteria don't have the chance to multiply before they are destroyed.

EDIT: don't worry about it, "if you follow good hygiene practices"

Aru

DogsFirst wrote: »

Bacteria shouldn't make a healthy dog sick, they're designed to eat rotten corpses as scavenging carnivores (hence your dog can dig up old bones covered in septacemia and still be wagging his tail two hours later). Salmonellosis is so rare in dogs, and is a symptom of a sick, immunologically defunct animal, and is practically unheard of in raw fed dogs (with normal / healthy digestive systems). Some people say "this gave my dog this..." but it says nothing of the product and everything about the health of the animal at the time. With lysozymes abounding in their saliva and a pH1, healthy dogs are practically immune to "normal" moderate food contamination like Salmonella, Campo, Septacemia.

Im sorry DogsFirst but im going to have to call you up on a few points in the above quote.Perhaps im just being pedantic but I dont like the idea of people reading misinformation and I do think that some of this misinformation could be dangerous

Bacteria IS what can make your dog sick.
Diseases can be caused by Bacteria's.Diseases can also fall under the category of virus's and parasites as well as having other causes-Autoimmune, Congenital deficiencies etc....BUT To claim that bacteria will not make dogs sick is absolute nonsense!and dangerous nonsense at that.Salmonella,campylobacter,ecoli etc are all types of bacteria.

Septicaemia is when a bacterial disease has become bloodbourne,thats why its also called Blood poisoning...Its bacterial spreading across the body systems in the blood.
Your dog cannot "get" septicaemia from bones they have dug up from the garden because they are not blood and bacteria filled organs.Thankfully your dog should never come across these organs from a butcher as ill animals are not allowed into the food chain.
The dog would aquire a Bacterial infection before it could potentially become septicaemic so its a bit of a moot point anyway.But septicaemic animals meat could carry a high dangerous bacterial load.Thats why we dont eat ill animals they are to high risk of transfering disease/bacteria.
Septicaemia an incredibly dangerous process that cann be fatal without treatment.usually antibiotics and supportive care.The lysosomes in saliva will not be causing any immunity to a bloodboune potentially fatal process.

As for the dangers of getting a salmonella or campylobacter infection.In the most recent survey done on Irish chicken it was found that 83 percent in broiler chickens,those that would be going for meat, were sampled as positive for campylobacter.We have the second highest rate of infection in our poultry in europe and in humans it is the main cause of Gi illness.Its being raised as a public health issue!
Humans eat cooked chicken usually.Dogs are getting the full bacterial load when they are fed raw.so it is something to keep in mind if your feeding raw chicken.Be very aware of hygiene and prevention of cross contamination of human foods and food surfaces.
I am not a follower of a raw diet.I find it very interesting and im reading up a lot about it at the minute though
But i am curious do people feeding raw chicken wash the chicken with boiling water of anything first?or does it go straight to the dog from the packet?

As for what animal get sick then yes to an extent your right.
Healthy adult dogs are the least likely to become sick and they are usually the quickest to recover from infection.But that does not mean that they cannot become ill simply because they are healthy.Healthy dogs become sick dogs all the time.
Its just those who are old,very young or have an underlying issue are much more likely to get sicker at a lower threshold of infectious attack(ie lower numbers of bacteria can make them sick)and more likely to have severe illness and are less likely to recover quickly.This is all due to their immune system function.
However throw the right virulent bacteria,or enough numbers of a bacteria at a dogs immune system and they will get ill
The lysosomal enzymes,ph etc are present in the vast majority of dogs regardless of age.These can lessen the amount of bacteria that enter the body alive.
However its their immune function and system,the immune cells within the body that recognizes and fights infection.

Below are the 2 articles on bacteria levels in chicken in ireland and the concerns that the food safety authority has been raising fo human health.

http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/Quality-Safety/Campylobacter-contamination-triggers-call-for-leak-proof-packaging Sources the statistics of contamination of chicken and raises public health issues


http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=19492 more on the issue and the level of contamination of bacteria in irish foods.

Im not trying to insult you with this post.I jus dont agree with the information you provided

ISDW

DogsFirst wrote: »

tins of salmon €1.30 Aldi for 400g (Lidl less likely to have!)!!! Stock up!

remember aim for the stuff in brine, veg oil on dry food is too much veg oils, rises the omega 6 levels and causes problems (excess fat, not enough vitamin E in dry food to counteract), fish oil (omega 3) is where the benefits are!

You keep saying that, but I vehemently disagree with you. Too much salt is dangerous for dogs and I would never feed my dogs or cats fish in brine. I shall continue to give them fish in oil.

I would just countenance everyone that this is a discussion forum, and just because someone says it on the internet, does not make it true.

juniord

hi dogsfirst i sent you a pm about sirloin, thank you for your reply i am just posting to thank you for your advice and to say since changing to raw all the allergy issue have cleared everyone remarks how shiny his coat is and how healthy he looks good food and exercise = happy healthy dog , how is this for a dogs dinner, raw sirloin steak some carrot broccoli sprout potato tin of sardines, gone in the blink of an eye thanks again

DogsFirst

Aru wrote: »

Im sorry DogsFirst but im going to have to call you up on a few points

Bacteria IS what can make your dog sick.
Diseases can be caused by Bacteria's.Diseases can also fall under the category of virus's and parasites as well as having other causes-Autoimmune, Congenital deficiencies etc....BUT To claim that bacteria will not make dogs sick is absolute nonsense!and dangerous nonsense at that.Salmonella,campylobacter,ecoli etc are all types of bacteria.


Below are the 2 articles on bacteria levels in chicken in ireland and the concerns that the food safety authority has been raising fo human health.

http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/Quality-Safety/Campylobacter-contamination-triggers-call-for-leak-proof-packaging Sources the statistics of contamination of chicken and raises public health issues


http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=19492 more on the issue and the level of contamination of bacteria in irish foods.

Im not trying to insult you with this post.I jus dont agree with the information you provided

First off, didn't line up the above kudos, brilliantly awkwardly timed!!

Not insulted at all Aru, never am, I love all this. I have taken that point on septacemia like a punch on the chin though! You're dead right, I should not have confused such terminology, quite embarrassing. I clearly can't remember the name of that nasty meat bacteria on rotten flesh, begins with s...........not salmonella, anyone know?! help

And totally accept that the human food chain is rife with said bacteria. But these don't affect your dog, this is a symptom of the dry fed population or a sick individual. Dogs have co evolved with campo (a common bacteria in the gut of fowl), like salmonella, these di not survive a pH1 in the dogs stomach. If your dog is dry fed the pH may be higher and this may make the dog more susceptible to some "getting through" to the intestines. Unless your dog eats a pound of pure salmonella when dose comes into it, your raw fed dog is fine with these. It wouldn't make much sense a scavenging carnivore, who love to eat birds, would die from these. And they don't. You will though, so don't lick your fingers!!

The thing is, what few people realise, is that while raw food will contain campo and ecoli, so does dry food (Strohmeyer et al. (2006)). In fact, with around 10% of dog owners now including raw products at some stage of their dogs existence, to date there has never ever been one instance of a raw fed dog contracting (or passing on to their owner) an infection/illness from their food (See Finley above). Unfortunately the same can't be said for dry food in it's short time at the top (Schotte et al 2007, ). Just have a look at the FDA website that is responsible for documenting and controlling pet food recalls. Over half the recalls are for salmonella, ecoli, alfatoxin (one of the most carcinogenic baddies known to man), the other half for when they "got the (chemical) mix wrong" (eg 2007 melamine scandal).

So yes raw fresh ingredients can be dodgy here and there but they're a lot safer than something that has been sitting in a cargo container, shipped from (or at least containing the ingredients of) countries with pretty poor food standards and ethics.

Raw fed dogs (or healthy dry fed dogs) do not suffer these bacteria at a rate that needs to be of a concern to fresh feeding dog owners. Lysozymes in their saliva and low pH1 make it almost impossible unless a serious amount has been ingested (which would be extremely rare in the food chain).

DogsFirst

ISDW wrote: »

You keep saying that, but I vehemently disagree with you. Too much salt is dangerous for dogs and I would never feed my dogs or cats fish in brine. I shall continue to give them fish in oil.

I would just countenance everyone that this is a discussion forum, and just because someone says it on the internet, does not make it true.

The internet is always true!! Fair enough ISDW, I take your point, I think it's fair to say salmon in brine should not be fed every single day to your dog as it may exceed salt limits.

But to be fair your dry food contains 1% salt (0.4% sodium, which is the divil, and 0.6% chloide) which is the very same as brine (most tuna/salmon is 0.9%) and dry food can range up to 2.5% salt (the legal max for salt content in food, or, more than sea water, or twice as salty as salted peanuts, or 2.5 times more than salt).

Go check your bag and tell us what the sodium is? Or simply the salt. My brined salmon is 0.4% Na, 1% salt total.

So I think your worry/attention is in the wrong place. When most of the top selling dry foods are reducing their salt (in particular the sodium) down to 1% (brine salmon, with the brine drained everybody) most are still far higher. And your dog eats this morning noon and night, not "now and again". Without the salt the dog wont eat the dry food.

Finally I think its fair to say I have always advocated the use of fish such as mackerel/herring/sardine fresh (from frozen) as nutritionally they are superb. Tinned (cooked) salmon is a poor alternative but it is the highest quality compared to any dry food. And everything in moderation, at no stage have I recommended tinned anything as a staple of anythings diet.

A lab requires 1g of salt in 400g of food for normal function. Fresh food is unsurprisingly about that, so the odd bit of salmon in brine (1% salt) is no big drama. If you are on a constant food of 1% (dry food) then it would definitely become a worry.

You're right though, maybe the advice should be "fish canned in fresh water for dry fed dogs"

ISDW

DogsFirst wrote: »

The internet is always true!! Fair enough ISDW, I take your point, I think it's fair to say salmon in brine should not be fed every single day to your dog as it may exceed salt limits.

But to be fair your dry food contains 1% salt (0.4% sodium, which is the divil, and 0.6% chloide) which is the very same as brine (most tuna/salmon is 0.9%) and dry food can range up to 2.5% salt (the legal max for salt content in food, or, more than sea water, or twice as salty as salted peanuts, or 2.5 times more than salt).

Go check your bag and tell us what the sodium is? Or simply the salt. My brined salmon is 0.4% Na, 1% salt total.

So I think your worry/attention is in the wrong place. When most of the top selling dry foods are reducing their salt (in particular the sodium) down to 1% (brine salmon, with the brine drained everybody) most are still far higher. And your dog eats this morning noon and night, not "now and again". Without the salt the dog wont eat the dry food.

Finally I think its fair to say I have always advocated the use of fish such as mackerel/herring/sardine fresh (from frozen) as nutritionally they are superb. Tinned (cooked) salmon is a poor alternative but it is the highest quality compared to any dry food. And everything in moderation, at no stage have I recommended tinned anything as a staple of anythings diet.

A lab requires 1g of salt in 400g of food for normal function. Fresh food is unsurprisingly about that, so the odd bit of salmon in brine (1% salt) is no big drama. If you are on a constant food of 1% (dry food) then it would definitely become a worry.

You're right though, maybe the advice should be "fish canned in fresh water for dry fed dogs"

Can you please point out where I said I add it to dry dog food?