Cheap meat for fresh fed dog owners

Vince32

lol why does everything have to get so heated, this is a discussion after all, I don't think anyone is going read this thread and rush off and start a new diet for their pets without doing the proper research first. ( one would hope )

On This:
" What can they eat?
Meat & Bones:

Chicken backs/carcasses
Chicken necks
Chicken wings
Chicken legs (thigh & drumsticks)
Beef ribs
Lamb (a little, as it is rich)
Lamb ribs & laps
Fish: Mackerel, Sardines, Sprats, etc. Canned fish (never in brine, so Spring Water, or Oil), or whole fish - head, tail, etc included. Salmon should be frozen first if it is fresh.
Offal: Organ meat - heart, kidney, liver, tripe (also very rich)


If you are including vegetables:
Vegetables:

Carrot
Parsnip
Green beans
Squash
Celery
Cauliflower
Spinach (small amount as it is rich)
Kale (small amount as it is rich)
Broccoli (small amount as it is rich)
"

can anyone say for certain it will cause illness or death in a pet? It looks to be a balanced a varied diet - hell I might start eating like this myself (less pizzas) -

If I'm going to mix dry food, with tinned salmon I'll use oil or water rather than brine, since the dry food has quite enough salt as it is. x

ISDW

Vince, it is a discussion, I'm not sure how its getting heated. I totally agree with the raw diet and also wouldn't ever give my animals fish in brine, which is what I said, having seen the effects of even a small amount of sea water - brine - on dogs.

DogsFirst

Sorry ISDW I did think that you dry fed.

Re fish in veg oil, whatever works for you. A quick google of the whole "omega 6:3" ratio thing might swing you the other way, or not. Its a new enough science in humans and positively prenatal in dogs. Basically more omega 6 is pro-inflammatory so if you're selecting the salmon in oil for it's omega 3 benefits they are almost completely obliterated by the 6. You need more 3 than 6 for it to give the desired anti inflammatory response. Matters less if you fresh feed though.

But for dry feeders it is vitally important they avoid veg oil as much as possible in tinned fish. It's sound advice. Even if it is found on the internet. I guess it's all about source. Always always check your sources.

Vince32

Sorry I wasn't referring to you, I was speaking on the various posts, and how posters present their arguments. It just made me laugh for a minute.

A wrong comment admittedly, my intent wasn't to cause offence, rather a smile, it's clear everyone loves their animals dearly, and has good experience in feeding raw foods.

I was thinking about the digestion of kibble along with meat or fish and how the kibble (processed food) seems to remain longer the stomach, and may build up excess bacteria from the mixture of raw+dry.

This is all very new to me, I used to feed my other dogs 1/2 tin of food a day and they were happy and healthy, now with so much to absorb and think about it's hard to know which opinion is better.

ISDW

Vince32 wrote: »

Sorry I wasn't referring to you, I was speaking on the various posts, and how posters present their arguments. It just made me laugh for a minute.

A wrong comment admittedly, my intent wasn't to cause offence, rather a smile, it's clear everyone loves their animals dearly, and has good experience in feeding raw foods.

I was thinking about the digestion of kibble along with meat or fish and how the kibble (processed food) seems to remain longer the stomach, and may build up excess bacteria from the mixture of raw+dry.

This is all very new to me, I used to feed my other dogs 1/2 tin of food a day and they were happy and healthy, now with so much to absorb and think about it's hard to know which opinion is better.

I know, our family dog when i was growing up would get toast in the morning, then a tin of Tesco own brand dog food with dry biscuits (not kibble) at night, and he lived until old age, with no health issues - only trip to the vet apart from boosters was when he was accidentally hit in the mouth with a golf club by my Dad. I do sometimes think its all being over analysed, and with a lot of people now on lower incomes than they used to be, I'd rather somebody feed their dog cheap food and keep them than surrender them to a shelter or pound with the excuse that they can't afford them anymore:rolleyes:

DogsFirst

Vince32 wrote: »

Sorry I wasn't referring to you, I was speaking on the various posts, and how posters present their arguments. It just made me laugh for a minute.

A wrong comment admittedly, my intent wasn't to cause offence, rather a smile, it's clear everyone loves their animals dearly, and has good experience in feeding raw foods.

now with so much to absorb and think about it's hard to know which opinion is better.

No it's too late Vince. We all hate you now.

Yeah it's a pity the whole thing is such a "hot" topic. Cost a lot to get us in this tizzy and it's going to take a lot more than a few discussions on boards to get us out of it.

And let me make the last bit easier for you, my opinion's the best Vince!!!!

Vince32

rofl dually noted dogsfirst, I bow to your superior wisdom

be prepared for many pm's in about 7 months, when I start training her to get me up to the shops and back lol.

Seriously though, be it a working dog or a pet dog, diet, and especially calories in vs calories out, I want my Husky to be strong and have tons on stamina, if we have to go mushing every single weekend ++, as long as she doesn't suffer from exhaustion after 2 miles I'll be ok with what ever diet works for her.

Vince32

rofl dually noted dogsfirst, I bow to your superior wisdom

be prepared for many pm's in about 7 months, when I start training her to get me up to the shops and back lol.

Seriously though, be it a working dog or a pet dog, diet, and especially calories in vs calories out, I want my Husky to be strong and have tons on stamina, if we have to go mushing every single weekend ++, as long as she doesn't suffer from exhaustion after 2 miles I'll be ok with what ever diet works for her.

DogsFirst

Vince32 wrote: »

rofl dually noted dogsfirst, I bow to your superior wisdom

be prepared for many pm's in about 7 months, when I start training her to get me up to the shops and back lol.

Seriously though, be it a working dog or a pet dog, diet, and especially calories in vs calories out, I want my Husky to be strong and have tons on stamina, if we have to go mushing every single weekend ++, as long as she doesn't suffer from exhaustion after 2 miles I'll be ok with what ever diet works for her.

Unless you're doing some blind fold sledding round the super market or you need them to take your cash out of the atm I'd probably PM ISDW on the whole working husky thing!

Promise me you wont put those skates on like that verim Caesar Milan. PROMISE MEEEEE

Vince32

god no, that was just embarrassing.... I don't rate him much, I'm more of a Victoria Stiwell fan :S

You can't pawn me off so easily btw, your opinion is best !!!! you said so yourself, but I will welcome any feeding advice that will benefit my darling little princess. So If ISDW doesn't mind, I'll get in touch when the time comes to start getting wet and mucky with the dogs.

ISDW

Food is obviously very important when working them Vince, but actually hydration is even more so I think. Which is why I put sardines or mackerel (in oil;)) into their water before they run, to ensure they take on enough liquid.

Irishchick

Vince dont wait until she is working. Start now while she is developing.

Vince32

I'm trying to find out how much, how often, or should the switch be done sooner rather than later.

3% of their body weight a day, 4-5% for growing dogs, feeding chicken, beef, lamb or fresh fish - frozen before feeding - canned fish in oil rather than brine. Don't cook bones. Gently cook any veggies that are going into the feed, feed twice or three times a day.

That's about all I know about a raw diet, please feel free to correct, add or delete I have wrong.

Vince32

.

puddles22

ok on day two of raw feed, stools are quite runny. how long before she adjusts to it and stools become solid ?

The Sweeper

puddles22, be careful when transitioning. A few runny poos aren't a major issue and they should firm up after a week or so. A bad dose of the runs that is dehydrating the dog is a problem.

Some dogs prove to be intolerant to different animal proteins - it's not common, but some dogs literally cannot have poultry, or lamb, or beef - they'll be able for one protein type but not another. Keep an eye on your dog and make sure she isn't becoming dehydrated. You can judge by pinching the skin (gently!) across her shoulders or on the scruff of her neck (where there is loose skin to pinch). When you let the skin go, it should return to its original position quickly. If it eases slowly back to its original position she is dehydrated. If you cannot get her to take and keep water down to rehydrate herself, you will have to take her to the vet.

Also check her mucous membranes - you should be able to open your dog's mouth and press her gums above her teeth. Her gums should be pink - not too red and not too pale. When you press them they'll turn white and when you take your finger away they should immediately pink up again.

I saw above the meal you described for your husky and IrishChick's response on the balance - do make sure that over time you achieve the right balance of muscle meat (including heart), bone, liver and organs for your dog. Steer clear of smoked fish, going instead for natural raw whole fish, bones n heads and all. Cooked rice and vegetable pulp are more fillers than anything else.

The one thing that would concern me about your diet is there is a lot in there - fish and chicken and beef and all sorts. If your dog is having an intolerance to an ingredient you have no way of knowing what it is because it's all mixed in together. Try feeding her one protein source at a time and see how that goes.

westies4ever

i've had my two westies on a raw diet for 10 days now and so far so good.

In the morning they get a little raw beef mince with pureed carrot/parsnip and a teaspoon oof cod liver oil. In the evening they get raw chicken legs/thighs. At the weekend they got tinned mackerel fillets instead of the beef one morning and liver instead of the beef another morning. I threw a raw egg into the beef this monring.

They are both loving it, are in good form and the poos are smaller and harder.

My only concern is that I'm not seeing any improvement as yet in my females skin allergies - the main reason I switched to raw. I know its only been 10 days but I was hoping to see a bit of a change by now.

dahat

westies4ever wrote: »

i've had my two westies on a raw diet for 10 days now and so far so good.

In the morning they get a little raw beef mince with pureed carrot/parsnip and a teaspoon oof cod liver oil. In the evening they get raw chicken legs/thighs. At the weekend they got tinned mackerel fillets instead of the beef one morning and liver instead of the beef another morning. I threw a raw egg into the beef this monring.

They are both loving it, are in good form and the poos are smaller and harder.

My only concern is that I'm not seeing any improvement as yet in my females skin allergies - the main reason I switched to raw. I know its only been 10 days but I was hoping to see a bit of a change by now.

BARF diet you mean,do not over complicate the meats at the start.
Liver should be fed sparingly,over feed it and you will see the results!

westies4ever

dahat wrote: »

BARF diet you mean,do not over complicate the meats at the start.
Liver should be fed sparingly,over feed it and you will see the results!

not sure what your point is? as i said , they're both loving it and its going well. my only concern is that i havent seen an improvement in my females allergies. i'm probably being impatient.
i have done a huge amount of research and talked to a lot of people so i'm happy i'm on the right tracks. barf/raw - whatever!

DogsFirst

westies4ever wrote: »

not sure what your point is? as i said , they're both loving it and its going well. my only concern is that i havent seen an improvement in my females allergies. i'm probably being impatient.
i have done a huge amount of research and talked to a lot of people so i'm happy i'm on the right tracks. barf/raw - whatever!

Hi Westies, sweeper above is right in that (dry fed) dogs can be sensitised to anything, including any one or many different meats, which is bloody odd when you think about it. Like a cow having a problem with grass.

Whats going on (for those interested, 'else skip next two paragraphs!) is that dogs (like humans) have a problem with cooked protein. Cooking denatures the protein, alters it, makes it harder to digest, the body doesn't recognise these partially digested fragments and the gut membrane panics. Strange proteins are potential threats so the body either sends out the troops (immune reaction) to mop them up or expels them (diarrhoea, vomit), usually a mix of both. In fact food allergy was first discovered in the 20's by a buy that realised he was allergic to cooked fish but not raw. All of us, dogs and humans, didn't evolve on cooked stuff so the systems still aren't up to date. Like trying to run modern software on Windows 96. While we've been eating cooked meat for thousands of years, dogs have only existed on it (as a sole source of protein) for the last 40yrs (this is not the time for the whole "but dogs have scavenged the remains of cooked protein from dumps for......", see previous discussions on that, in short it's not enough stressor to develop new systems, then include controlled breeding etc...anyway)

Its shown that dogs maintained on the same dry food for more than 12 months "sentitise to a protein" so the body develops a permanent problem with that protein - so cooked beef, cooked chicken, cooked fish. Sometimes this will develop into a problem with "beef" or "chicken" or "fish" in any form, raw or cooked. This is very new science and I can say 9/10 vets are completely oblivous of the difference between a true allergy (coughing, gasping, projectile vomitting, think shellfish) and a sentitivity which, in its different forms (eg with/without entry to the gut) also involves the immune system, sometimes doesn't, and is much more insidious, slower to develop, many different symptoms so often misdiagnosed. I know as this is my field. The great imitator they call it.

While the hefty majority of dogs react instantly to the removal of the food antigen (very normally simply gluten or cooked protein) westies are in a league of their own. Very very complicated. Genetics plays a huge role here. I said in previous posts the only two dogs I have failed to get right in three years are both westies, one in Oz one here. One in very good mind you, another is not quite there.

Dahat is spot on, too many proteins is definitely fudging the issue as you don't know which one your dog is having a problem with, some or many. You need to find a very simple base for your westie. You're right to give the whole lot a go right from the start as it is very usually gluten/cooked protein. You don't need to worry about the ever tedious "illimination diet". But now you do.

You need to first find a suitable, nutritional, hypoallergenic base. I recommend a new animal protein that your westie hasn't yet experienced (so won't have a problem with) - such as raw turkey (instead of chicken), rabbit, goat, whatever you can find. Mix this with say rice or potato (70/30 say). This is your default, it should work. Most of the time it will for the more problem cases. You can add nothing at all to this for two weeks. The turkey skin etc will keep the vitamins up. After this purge of the system, and as the system settles, you are free to first add immuno boosters C and E sprinkled on food and a little chamomile to the food (for the gut lining), maybe the fish oil (omega 3, brilliant). You want to get everything back in order before "challenging it". It is highly unlikely your dog will react to these compounds but still, add each new thing every four days to test for a reaction.

You're now at the end of the month, your westie is starting to settle, her system is strong and calm and les likely to freak out at the least possible thing (like a flea bite, not many folk think dogs are allergic to flea bites but it's not the flea, dogs are fine with fleas, evolved beside them, it suggests a hyper sensitive immune system.....aaaanyway). At this point you should set about finding the culprit to your dogs problems by challenging her with one food item a week. Start with adding some chicken for a week (or two?!), wait for response, then remove, add some beef, wait and remove, cooked veg etc.......

Other great hypoallergenic food is egg. 100% digestible, the only food that that can be said. The body loves them. Great vitamin / mineral boost in there. They should be fine now and again, scramble if you like. Include white (people say dont as avidin in the white removes biotin in the yolk but this isn't right, there's so much biotin in there that you would need 10 or 20 whites to counteract).

One you find a few culprits adapt your mix and feed both dogs same way, save hassle. Watch out for any treats during this time which might fudge all your hard work. Let us know how you get on.

westies4ever

this is getting depressing - where in gods name am i supposed to get goat or rabbit? i live a a smal town in laois - the local lidl/aldi/supervalu is as good as it gets. even turkey wll be a stretch given that its not christmas.

i am very aware of westies complex allergy problems which is why i switched to raw - finance wise i am stretched as it is. am considering ordering some allergy testing through the vet to see if i can get to the bottom of it. its not chronic - she has no sores, bleeding skin etc but is almost constantly scratching - i just want to improve her quality of life.

DogsFirst

westies4ever wrote: »

this is getting depressing - where in gods name am i supposed to get goat or rabbit? i live a a smal town in laois - the local lidl/aldi/supervalu is as good as it gets. even turkey wll be a stretch given that its not christmas.

i am very aware of westies complex allergy problems which is why i switched to raw - finance wise i am stretched as it is. am considering ordering some allergy testing through the vet to see if i can get to the bottom of it. its not chronic - she has no sores, bleeding skin etc but is almost constantly scratching - i just want to improve her quality of life.

Scratching means the antigen is still going in. Very high dose fish oil works well but its no solution. Buy fresh turkey in lidl as a start, should be fine. Next try fish on its own. Then you're talking some weird animal! Failing that buy the over engineered zd or yd from vets. Very expensive but dog should do well enough that you can challenge her while she is eating it.

westies4ever

ok - i'll switch to turkey once i finish the current batch of chicken and i'll switch to fish oil rather then cod liver. sorry if i'm coming across as agitated but the work i've put into this poor little dog and not getting her sorted is really starting to frustrate me!

DogsFirst

Its very frustrating but look forward to a new and drug free dog. Giving her years and saving you a fortune. If you like I can put you in contact with the another lady (one of the westie failures I was talking about). She's been there done that with her westies and might have some useful info for you. Or you can both meet up and cry, whatever! Let me know and I'll contact her.

westies4ever

thanks dogfirst - i'll pm you my personal email address if you wouldnt mind passing it on - that'd be the best medium.

TooManyDogs

westies4ever wrote: »

this is getting depressing - where in gods name am i supposed to get goat or rabbit? i live a a smal town in laois - the local lidl/aldi/supervalu is as good as it gets. even turkey wll be a stretch given that its not christmas.

I'm going to be getting some minced meat from theses guys www.foodforpets.ie, they have rabbit as well as white fish, and the usuals - beef, lamb, chicken, tripe. They deliver so I'm waiting on my order now!

boodee

dahat wrote: »

Do not mix both foods in the same meal,bacteria problems from what i know.
It is ok to feed a 50/50 diet just have the dry and raw food fed on different days.

I've just decided to start feeding my lot some meat. Do i just give them meat at one meal and dry food at other, they're on two meals a day.

Zapperzy

boodee wrote: »

I've just decided to start feeding my lot some meat. Do i just give them meat at one meal and dry food at other, they're on two meals a day.

See my question here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76498998
Probably best to keep them separate if possible but tbh I'v fed both at the same time with no side effects and he's still alive! My guy has an iron stomach though, he's never once had a stomach upset despite chopping and changing food at times, so maybe a dog with a more sensitive stomach might have problems.

puddles22

the pup has fair plumped up since getting her back from the kennels and thanks everybody for all the advice, once more problem though and it is such an inconvienence more than anything, snce moving to the barf diet she has to get up to poo at least twice in the middle of the night , she always slept right through before , is this just her body adjusting to the change in diet cause it is a right pain in the ass having to get up at 4 and 6 in the morning

dahat

boodee wrote: »

I've just decided to start feeding my lot some meat. Do i just give them meat at one meal and dry food at other, they're on two meals a day.

Personally i would feed meat and dry on alternate days.