Cheap meat for fresh fed dog owners

Stheno

I lived close to a turkey farm once, and they threw out the legs and wings

Until I arrived looking for offcuts, I'd pay about 20 for 20kg of wings/legs anytime I needed them

TooManyDogs

Stheno wrote: »

I lived close to a turkey farm once, and they threw out the legs and wings

Until I arrived looking for offcuts, I'd pay about 20 for 20kg of wings/legs anytime I needed them

That's still very cheap but aren't they the meanest shower going?!?! That does make me mad, 'Oh you want my rubbish, and slightly reduce my refuse bill? Well it'll cost you....' No thoughts of how they get a slightly smaller refuse bill, you get free food, everybody wins

boomerang

This link to the page of dietary guidelines for CRF dogs on the DogAware website gives you a breakdown of the protein, fat, carb, calcium, phosphorous and calorie content of various common raw meaty bones:

http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneytable.html


I can work with NutritionData.com easily because Boo doesn't get bones - they're too high in phosphorous for a CRF dog. (That's why I have to add calcium to her meals.)

But if you have the nutritional information on different kinds of bones (say from the link above) then you can input that info and create recipes around it on nutritiondata.com or NAT Tools. Equally, if you do primarily feed a commercial diet and want to supplement with fresh foods like eggs, sardines etc. you can upload the nutritional data for that food to either site and use it as an ingredient in recipes too.

The other fantastic resource I've found is The Whole Dog Journal. It's just such a good magazine. There's a lot of info on their website, but if you subscribe you get access to a lot more content. They devote a huge amount of space in each issue to dietary options for dogs - canned, dry, frozen, dehydrated, home-prepared or raw - and their research is second to none.

boomerang

One last link:

This leaflet from the National Research Council in the US is a great baseline to start working out your dog's calorie, protein, fat and micro-nutrient requirements. Be prepared to have to adjust the calorie requirement up or down as it is only a guideline - I think the average daily calorie intake I got for Boo from across the various websites I used was about 1200kcal, which I found is actually too much for her.

http://dels-old.nas.edu/banr/dogs.html

It might be easier to convert their values over to metric 'cos most of us measure our dog's weight and dog's food in kg.

The Sweeper

recedite wrote: »

They are softer. I've eaten a few myself, so I know. As I explained, I put the bones in a pressure cooker for up to half an hour.
In order of likelihood of splintering; roast chicken bones > raw bones> pressure cooked bones.

Recedite I'm just going to stick my head in here quickly on the bones debate. The risk to the dog of eating bone is more than just the notion of eating something sharp that will splinter and rupture their guts. Raw fed dogs have very acidic stomachs for the most part and the bone they consume is quickly eaten away and they won't get internally impaled.

Cooked bone, even pressure cooked bone, has had the goodness cooked out of it. Pressure cooked bone is soft and dry and not dissimilar to cardboard. Feed enough of it to your dog in an unbalanced meal, and they'll end up with constipation. That's assuming it passes through the gut - cooked bone is responsible for a lot of bowel obstruction problems in dogs - it literally turns into a sort of undigestable brick that the dog has to strain to pass. If he can't pass it, he'll need surgery to remove the blockage.

Similar issues can happen with raw fed dogs unused to eating bone, or given too much bone in their diet - guzzlers who swallow bone whole and so on. The bone can get stuck low in the oesophagous before it even hits the stomach, or can get passed out of the stomach into the bowel before it's been fully digested, where it creates a blockage. However if the dog is coping well with a raw diet, chewing their food and tearing off easily swallowed pieces, there should be no bone problems with raw bone.

Cherry Blossom

boomerang wrote: »

This link to the page of dietary guidelines for CRF dogs on the DogAware website gives you a breakdown of the protein, fat, carb, calcium, phosphorous and calorie content of various common raw meaty bones:

http://www.dogaware.com/health/kidneytable.html


I can work with NutritionData.com easily because Boo doesn't get bones - they're too high in phosphorous for a CRF dog. (That's why I have to add calcium to her meals.)

At first glance, I like the format of this site, this will keep me busy for a few weeks

TooManyDogs

Me too!

DogsFirst

boomerang wrote: »

You know I'm pro raw/fresh feeding DogsFirst, but I'd have to disagree with you on the above. I actually think it's really important for people to be aware of the potential nutritional excesses or deficiencies in their dog's diet.

I don't want people to be discouraged by reading our at times complicated discussions but I'm encouraged to take one more stab at this. Nutrient excesses and insufficiencies in healthy fresh fed dogs are practically non existent. Think of all the zoo animals with keepers feeding a fresh, varied, natural food, mothers of kids and mothers of any animal species around the world, the dog (and cat) remain the only animals where a knowledge of percentage requirements and ratios is "vital" to their health. Insufficiencies / excesses are an issue reserved for those attempting to achieve a complete, processed diet. You don't need to worry about them, unless you got a half tonne of liver out the back and are wondering how much of this he can eat each day to get rid of it!

With thousands of products (regardless of price) being recalled each year by the FDA for excesses / insufficiencies, and as I have yet to experience a heathy raw / fresh / whatever fed dog on a varied diet experiencing anything close to excess / insufficency, and following considerable feeding research and experience and never once encountering such a problem in fresh fed animals, I stand by what I said - feeding them yourself is easier, safer, cheaper and infinitely better nutritionally. The proofs in the puddin and dogs as a whole do better, body and mind, when you get rid of the gluten/cooked protein.

boomerang wrote: »

I also think it's wrong to dismiss commercial foods entirely - they have a place and I think you're always more likely to win people over to your way of thinking if you show a little more tolerance for other forms of feeding.

I totally agree with you Boomerang. I am appearing intolerant of other peoples views. My total emersion in the subject the last few years has left me intolerant of any support for processed foods in pets. I am a "fresh nutter" and I need my own site where my views / help are needed / required. As this is a discussion forum it is not the place for me as i can find no weight in the counter argument.

If I have patronised / offended anyone along the way with my lecturing (ISDW, Wibbs), I apologise, it is as much unintentional as it is unusual for me. I'm afraid it comes with the territory.

Ronnie Beck

TooManyDogs wrote: »

I was just looking at that site, how do you figure the nutritional breakdown of the bones part of the dinners? Or do you analyse that seperately? I wouldnt mind figuring out exactly what goes into my dinners. Having said that I think it's also hard to find any conclusive breakdown of what is the nutritional needs of a dog.

Wouldn't it be great if there was an agreed upon food p.ramid for dogs? Between the BARF diet, raw meaty bones diet and then prey model diet it can get very confusing

To many professors . Dogs will thrive on all sorts of diets. Processed food companys know this and exploit it. My great uncles collie worked very hard ground 6 hours a day for 15 years on a diet of scraps. Basically bacon fat, cabbage, carrots, the odd rabbit and potato skins . And not a bother on him either. Was still running about like a pup until he got ran over.

Roughly
Loads of meat 70%
Bone 10%
veg 10%
rice 7%
fishoil/yogurt 3%

Only cook the veg and rice and no mad stuff. Meat and three veg:) tablespoon of rice. Thats about as simple as it gets.

One of my dogs is a hunting springer and she's flying now. Never gets tired. Zero drop in her intensity up until about 4hours walking there on sunday and she's only 11 months. No ill effects whatsoever (Ronnie et dogs 2012). All the evidence I need.

TooManyDogs

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

Roughly
Loads of meat 70%
Bone 10%
veg 10%
rice 7%
fishoil/yogurt 3%

Ahhh but you see, the prey model geeks will kill you for evening mentioning rice and veg, never mind yogurt. I was recently told that by feeding my dogs veg I may as well give a bowl of sweets to my child, and someone else told me it was equivalent to feeding them plastic bullets.

There isn't one agreed upon diet, I would follow Tom Londsdale diet roughly and it works for my lot, and I think that's the key. Find what works for your dog and keep your mind open that what suits your dog might not suit someone else.

Ronnie Beck

TooManyDogs wrote: »

Ahhh but you see, the prey model geeks will kill you for evening mentioning rice and veg, never mind yogurt. I was recently told that by feeding my dogs veg I may as well give a bowl of sweets to my child, and someone else told me it was equivalent to feeding them plastic bullets.

There isn't one agreed upon diet, I would follow Tom Londsdale diet roughly and it works for my lot, and I think that's the key. Find what works for your dog and keep your mind open that what suits your dog might not suit someone else.

Whats the basics of the prey model? might give it a shot. My reasoning for using veg is that wild meat or prey is different to say a factory chicken. Less vitamins and bacteria so add in veg and yogurt. Just my own logic here.

I not sure as what works for my dogs as they're both fit and healthy touch wood and any changes I make show only small differences. All i know now for sure is giving them cooked meat gives them the runs but it doesn't seem too bother them much otherwise. Garlic is another thing I haven't tried yet. small amounts are meant to be good for them once a week or so.

TooManyDogs

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

Whats the basics of the prey model? might give it a shot. My reasoning for using veg is that wild meat or prey is different to say a factory chicken. Less vitamins and bacteria so add in veg and yogurt. Just my own logic here.

Prey model would be 80% meat, 10% bones, 10% offal. Or the real extremists only feed entire carcasses, complete with head, feet and fur/hide :eek: Absolutly nothing else so no added yogurt/carbs/veg/supplements.

Ronnie Beck

gas stuff. there is a whole world of info there just flicking through some sites. It does mention that some prey heads give their dogs fish oil as farmed beef is deficient in 0mega 3. Some days they have gotten just a rabbit for dinner. Veg isn't species appropriate is what it says. I know wild raw meat and fish is full of vitamins. (I'd love to give my dogs more game but not sure if this will result in ripped up retrieves). Not sure about the quality and quantity in the farmed stuff. Anyone know anything about this?

The pair of them get roughly 600 grams of meat with a tablespoon of rice and a tablespoon of veg and a dash of oil. Probably not the 10% veg now that i think of it . more like 5% rice and veg.

Wibbs

TooManyDogs wrote: »

Ahhh but you see, the prey model geeks will kill you for evening mentioning rice and veg, never mind yogurt. I was recently told that by feeding my dogs veg I may as well give a bowl of sweets to my child, and someone else told me it was equivalent to feeding them plastic bullets.

There isn't one agreed upon diet, I would follow Tom Londsdale diet roughly and it works for my lot, and I think that's the key. Find what works for your dog and keep your mind open that what suits your dog might not suit someone else.

+1000

I personally prefer a homemade, mostly raw, but with some cooked meat(and defo cooked veg). And I avoid gluten. I also personally think the supermarket brands of dry dog food are utter muck and tins are beyond the pale. However I have more than a few issues with the "our dogs are wolves and require the same diet" position/meme/near religion in some. While the petfood manufacturers BS us and do so way more than the rawists, the BS can go both ways. The raw meat is better than cooked is at best a grey area, at worse demonstrably false. Cooked food liberates more nutrients than raw. http://news.discovery.com/human/cooking-meats-ancestors-.html It's why we started doing it. It also seriously reduces or destroys bacterial/parasite load. Now the raw food faddists will claim that because the dog(or cat) is now eating a wild diet this makes their immune systems stronger. Pity that most wild canids have parasites and often are weakened by them. If you hear talk of "food enzymes" in raw meat and how they're so important, ask to see scientific papers. You'll be asking for a long time. Unless you're discussing wolf dog hybrids of recent mixing, our dogs are not wolves. This is a demonstrable fact. They haven't been wolves for many thousands of years.

Panicky statements like this

Dogsfirst wrote:

With thousands of products (regardless of price) being recalled each year by the FDA for excesses / insufficiencies,

just hype up the debate. Plus I'd love to see any independent link that supports this claim about 1000's of recalled dog food products.

Ditto for an independent link that compares dogfood with homegrown that backs up this line stated as fact

Nutrient excesses and insufficiencies in healthy fresh fed dogs are practically non existent.

Given the various raw/barf/prey acolytes can't even agree among themselves the "ideal diet" how could you even begin to prove this "fact"? And no, look to the wild isn't proof. Many animals of all species are deficient or malnourished in the wild.

Sure avoid commercial food like I do, give them bones to chew(appropriate to your doggie), give them more meat, fish and eggs, cooked or uncooked and don't sweat the cooking part.Throw in veg and table scraps and if they're getting tubby, feed them less and if they're getting skinny feed them more. You don't have to buy into extremes and if you're feeding one of the better quality dogfoods every so often and your dog is happy, so what?

Ronnie Beck

Cooked food liberates more nutrients than raw. http://news.discovery.com/human/cook...ncestors-.html It's why we started doing it. It also seriously reduces or destroys bacterial/parasite load.

I think your getting people and dogs mixed up a bit.

you maybe heard of the lock and key protein enzyme analogy.

Proteins have a certain structure thats held together chemically. when you you cook the protein (or lock) the enzyme (or key) no longer fits and so the dog can no longer break down the protein as well as he would have had the meat been raw. Heat basically adds energy or vibrations to the protein and changes its shape or denatures it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denaturation_%28biochemistry%29

Whatever about all that I just don't see why you would cook the meat. Your better off following the freezing guidelines if your worried about parasites. Parasites do no harm to a healthy host as its not in there interest. A wormer every few months clears anything that may be there out anyway. I'm also looking for slow release energy in my dogs. Cooked meat goes through them like water one end or the other.

I think people started cooking meat to kill bacteria so they didn't die of food poisoning. There is less vitamins and enzymes in cooked meat but that's a trade of we had to make that dogs simply don't.

Wibbs

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

I think your getting people and dogs mixed up a bit.

The experiment wasn't done on people.

you maybe heard of the lock and key protein enzyme analogy.

Proteins have a certain structure thats held together chemically. when you you cook the protein (or lock) the enzyme (or key) no longer fits and so the dog can no longer break down the protein as well as he would have had the meat been raw. Heat basically adds energy or vibrations to the protein and changes its shape or denatures it.

You do realise digestion denatures the proteins in meat? Cooking speeds up that process, liberating more nutrients for the digestion system(so long as you don't nuke your food:D). Pre digesting it as it were. It's one reason why we as an omnivore aren't so hot on eating raw red meat as our stomach acids aren't as strong as a carnivores, but cooking gave us an "external carnivore stomach" as it were(just as knives/tools gave us carnivore claws and teeth). One of the facts some of the more earnest vegetarian types level at people eating meat. Erroneously as we can't break down cellulose and many other raw plant constituents either. Now dogs are obviously much more carnivorous than humans, however I am arguing that not all dogs may be. Their stomach acids may not be nearly as strong as a wolf because of at least 15,000 years of eating our leftovers.

Actually one question I've been meaning to ask of the "wild/raw" advocates, if I may? If one actually followed these ideas to the fullest, they'd never suggest feeding unprepared raw meat and bones to pups up to a year old. Wolves regurgitate their stomach contents to their pups after a hunt. This regurgitated food is prechewed into smaller chunks and partially digested by the adults stomach acids. Lightly "cooked/marinated" as it were and the bones broken down to much smaller manageable chunks. So why if they're all so keen to follow the "wild and natural" diet of wolves do they forget that pretty large aspect of feeding pups and young wolves in the wild? Especially given the charges of the anti raw brigade when it comes to impaction, internal injury etc particularly with bones.

Whatever about all that I just don't see why you would cook the meat. Your better off following the freezing guidelines if your worried about parasites.

Yep, minus 20 degrees for 7 days. However it doesn't kill bacteria or viruses, merely slows their growth.

Parasites do no harm to a healthy host as its not in there interest.

Seriously?

A wormer every few months clears anything that may be there out anyway. I'm also looking for slow release energy in my dogs. Cooked meat goes through them like water one end or the other.

If it suits your guys, then cool, that's a good thing. I'm merely saying one size does not fit all. Other folks dogs don't handle the raw meat and bones diet so well and if they find that works for them.

I think people started cooking meat to kill bacteria so they didn't die of food poisoning. There is less vitamins and enzymes in cooked meat but that's a trade of we had to make that dogs simply don't.

Bacteria was one reason, mostly much higher bioavailability though. There are only two vitamins that are heat sensitive at cooking temps and are both time dependent. Vit C and some Vit B's. Dogs make their own vit C(unlike us) so no loss. Even so these vitamins are reduced, not destroyed by cooking, unless you're boiling meat for hours until it's a lump of leather. Even then the majority of vitamins will still be present, if only in the water/soup they're boiled in. Minerals can't be destroyed by cooking unless you're using to CERN supercollider to make your dinner

boomerang

Parasites do no harm to a healthy host as its not in there interest.

That's simply untrue - with the exception of tapeworms, which dogs can live with without harm - it's just we don't like to see tapeworm segments crawling out of their rectum.

I wouldn't dismiss commercial foods out of hand - there is a huge difference between the supermarket brands and the niche products at the other end of the spectrum that are sold by small, independent companies. Remember not all commercial food is dry, either - there is some fantastic frozen, dehydrated and canned products out there.

serenacat

DogsFirst wrote: »

I've noticed that Tesco have recently put a large freezer in most of their stores right as you walk in where they have their half priced meat. Is this new? I saw large whole chickens half price- €2 per kg!!

If this is a new thing this is an excellent source for meat ingredients for the dogs dinner. You could essentially be feeding your average dog (18kg) fresh chicken for €1 euro a day, or the same as a cheaper bag of dry priced €30, for 15kg of meat flavoured crackers!!!


Other ideas for cheap ingredients:

Fish Factories: Buy in bulk (10kg of frozen mackerel for half nothing)

Butcher Factory Outlets: Buy your rashers and sausages from them and they'll keep off cuts, let you know when food is approaching "sell by", bones etc


Anyone got any more?!

Is the meat irish? how is it so cheap?

Forumsrule

My father used to buy whole chickens without their breasts off a Butcher in the English market in cork. Can't remeber exactly but they were cheap, the demand for breasts was obviously higher than other cuts.

Ronnie Beck

Forumsrule wrote: »

My father used to buy whole chickens without their breasts off a Butcher in the English market in cork. Can't remeber exactly but they were cheap, the demand for breasts was obviously higher than other cuts.

get them off my butcher the odd for the same reason. legs and all still on them. great for them

tk123

I ordered some meat online this week from Dublin Meat company and in the comments chanced my arm and asked if they had any bones for the dog - sure enough 2 lovely big bones came with the order!! Delighted as the butcher where I get chicken legs for my dog's dindins (cheaper than DMC for chick legs) never have bones!