Home help stealing from elderly aunt !

CharlieCroker

Kosseegan wrote: »

That is rubbish. All that needs to be proven is that the home help was not the owner of the money. The person who put the money in the box on behalf of the aunt can say who owned the money.

The OP's aunt is the injured party, nobody else. SHE needs to "officially" make the complaint and give a statement in order to secure a prosecution. It would be impossible to get a conviction without her aunts knowledge.

And how do you prove the OP's aunt didn't spend her own money without taking a statement to confirm it??

Maura74

dahamsta wrote: »

It was a perfectly legitimate question, and you never specified that the Gardai would be installing the cameras.

Stop jumping down peoples throats, there are negative possibilities involved and people wouldn't be giving you full and frank answers if they didn't bring them up. If you don't want to hear them, ask somewhere else.

If the robber/carer cannot be prosecute because the OP did not inform her aunt of 101 whether she can put up a camera in her home and it is the only way of getting evidence of the theft ny carer. The OP can give the evidence to the paper and let them publish it for other to see how HSE are not vetting their carers for elderly people. Also these carers are stealing from the elderly helpless people. :mad::mad::mad:


Too much of this is going on, it is happening on a daily basis in care homes in Ireland as well

Milk & Honey

CharlieCroker wrote: »

The OP's aunt is the injured party, nobody else. SHE needs to "officially" make the complaint and give a statement in order to secure a prosecution. It would be impossible to get a conviction without her aunts knowledge.

And how do you prove the OP's aunt didn't spend her own money without taking a statement to confirm it??

Anyone with knowledge of a crime can make a complaint in respect of it. How are murder cases prosecuted when the victim is invariably dead?
All that has to be proven is that the home help dishonestly appropriated money which was not hers. Evidence from the CCTV footage plus the evidence of missing notes would be sufficient grounds for an arrest on suspicion of committing an offence. If the home help is confronted by the garda it is most likely she will confess. A prosecution instigated and conviction can be secured based on her own admissions. The aunt need never know.

Jesus Shaves

protect the inheritance

prettygurrly

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Anyone with knowledge of a crime can make a complaint in respect of it. How are murder cases prosecuted when the victim is invariably dead?

that made me smile...talk about stating the obvious!

but yes you make a good point although doesn't the state take the case on the behalf of a murdered person? "state prosecution" etc.

also if it was possible for a non injured person to get a prosecution then you could have a witness to a rape get a prosecution yet we know if the victim wont make a statement then there's no case...so sadly, if it's found out that the home help is responsible then you'll have to tell your aunt. unless you have power of attorney. i think then you'd be able to take your aunts case and prosecute without her knowing.

Milk & Honey

prettygurrly wrote: »

that made me smile...talk about stating the obvious!

but yes you make a good point although doesn't the state take the case on the behalf of a murdered person? "state prosecution" etc.

also if it was possible for a non injured person to get a prosecution then you could have a witness to a rape get a prosecution yet we know if the victim wont make a statement then there's no case...so sadly, if it's found out that the home help is responsible then you'll have to tell your aunt. unless you have power of attorney. i think then you'd be able to take your aunts case and prosecute without her knowing.

All crimes are prosecuted by the state. The problem with prosecuting for rape is that there has to be an absence of consent. A witness cannot give evidence on this point. It often happens that someone sees an incident involving criminal damage and report. The culprits are apprehended. They could well be prosecuted without the knowledge of the owner of the property.

CharlieCroker

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Anyone with knowledge of a crime can make a complaint in respect of it. How are murder cases prosecuted when the victim is invariably dead?
All that has to be proven is that the home help dishonestly appropriated money which was not hers. Evidence from the CCTV footage plus the evidence of missing notes would be sufficient grounds for an arrest on suspicion of committing an offence. If the home help is confronted by the garda it is most likely she will confess. A prosecution instigated and conviction can be secured based on her own admissions. The aunt need never know.

In a murder inquiry, a complaint can't be taken from an IP, thats why so many end in aquittal!

The only time a prosecution can arise without an injured party is where it's witnessed by a member of AGS. even then, the DPP will bestow to run with it without an IP statement if the IP is available!!

MagicSean

Milk & Honey wrote: »

All crimes are prosecuted by the state. The problem with prosecuting for rape is that there has to be an absence of consent. A witness cannot give evidence on this point. It often happens that someone sees an incident involving criminal damage and report. The culprits are apprehended. They could well be prosecuted without the knowledge of the owner of the property.

Theft also requires an absence of consent

Milk & Honey

MagicSean wrote: »

Theft also requires an absence of consent

The absence of consent would only arise if the defence of borrowing was raised. Absence of consent is not part of the actus reus of theft. It is part of the actus reus of rape. Rape cases in which the defence of consent is raised will have some evidence of consent. This has to be rebutted by the prosecution. That is very difficult to do without the victim going into evidence. There are usually no other witnesses. A victim might be dumb or mentally retarded and not in a position to give direct evidence but evidence of a struggle from an eyewitness might be sufficient. It is always easier if there is direct evidence from a victim but it is not insurmountable. In shoplifting cases the victim is often a company and a company cannot give evidence. Despite this hundreds of shoplifters are successfully prosecuted every week.

dillo2k10

I think that you may have trouble getting her convicted without the help of your aunt.

My grandmothers house was attacked a few years ago, she lived in the middle of no where, she was on her own at the time and 2 people started smashing her windows and her car.

At this time she had signs of alzheimer's and had a stroke and quickly got worse and my mother was unable to have the men charged as my grandmother would have to go to court. She thought that she wouldn't be able to go as the stress and confusion would have been too painful.

The men were never charged.

I do hope that you can have the men charged without her, but I don't think you can.

Milk & Honey

Your grandmother was on her own. There was no other evidence as to who had committed the crime. Your mother could only have given hearsay evidence.This is different. If the serial numbers of the notes are recorded and there is CCTv there will be plenty of evidence available without involving the aunt. Also thugs are usually clever enough not to make a statement. Many people confronted with evidence of embezzlement confess.
This thread is full of people who know absolutely nothing about the laws of evidence throwing in their two cents worth.

Jesus Shaves

Milk & Honey wrote: »

This thread is full of people who know absolutely nothing about the laws of evidence throwing in their two cents worth.

:eek:

dillo2k10

Milk & Honey wrote: »

This thread is full of people who know absolutely nothing about the laws of evidence throwing in their two cents worth.

That's all boards is.

If someone is looking for professional legal advice then they go to a solicitors, not boards.

If you just want to hear what a load of random people have to say then you come to boards.ie

Jesus Shaves

The OP was advised many times in the thread to go to a solicitor but she doesn't have time.

bath handle

darokane wrote: »

The OP was advised many times in the thread to go to a solicitor but she doesn't have time.

the vast majority of solicitors have not studied the lsw of evidence and have never done any work in the criminal courts. there are relatively few solicitors who would be in a position to advise the o/p properly. the garda advice is probably adequate.

Jesus Shaves

bath handle wrote: »

the vast majority of solicitors have not studied the lsw of evidence and have never done any work in the criminal courts. there are relatively few solicitors who would be in a position to advise the o/p properly. the garda advice is probably adequate.

I highly doubt that.

bath handle

darokane wrote: »

bath handle wrote: »

the vast majority of solicitors have not studied the lsw of evidence and have never done any work in the criminal courts. there are relatively few solicitors who would be in a position to advise the o/p properly. the garda advice is probably adequate.

I highly doubt that.

You suspect otherwise or you can put forward some infotmation to contradict it?

niamhx

Thanks everyone for all your advice.

I went to the Garda station yesterday ( the one for her area) firstly my aunt will NOT need be involved in any of this, her age and many other factors mean it can and will be done without her knowledge.

All that needs to be done is prove she was near the box, the Garda will supply the camera and powder the money this way we have her on CCTV and hopefully the powder will be on her hands at the time of the arrests, plus the notes will be in her possession. All that needs to be proved is she took the money from the house. The guards said, she'll confess when she realises the amount of evidence we have against her, meaning my aunt will never need to know

Darakane, I've felt from the minute you posted you were against me, hence the reason I got snotty with you. Your comment about inheritance proves that ! Firstly I'm not the person who'll be getting any inheritance, I'm doing this to protect my aunt, wouldn't you ? She worked until she was 84 yrs old, cycled 10 miles a day. Doesn't that count for something ?? Should I let this lady keep stealing from her ? On you solicitor comment, it's bull****e ! I don't need one, but she will

Maura74

Great news hope you will get the camera in quickly, also let us know the outcome. Hopefully you will know for sure who is taking you aunt money and put a stop to the thieving scum.

Jesus Shaves

bath handle wrote: »

You suspect otherwise or you can put forward some infotmation to contradict it?

I can put forward the exact same amount of information that you did.

Jesus Shaves

niamhx wrote: »

Thanks everyone for all your advice.


Darakane, I've felt from the minute you posted you were against me, hence the reason I got snotty with you. Your comment about inheritance proves that ! Firstly I'm not the person who'll be getting any inheritance, I'm doing this to protect my aunt, wouldn't you ? She worked until she was 84 yrs old, cycled 10 miles a day. Doesn't that count for something ?? Should I let this lady keep stealing from her ? On you solicitor comment, it's bull****e ! I don't need one, but she will

I'm not against you, i'm against the way you are going about this, not telling your aunt is sneaky and underhanded, By what you just said the guards are hoping she will confess with the evidence against her(if it is her), i dont agree with you pointing the finger without absolute proof(innocent until proven guilty).
Throughout the whole thread you have sounded and looked immature about the whole situation.
That is all.

MagicSean

darokane wrote: »

I can put forward the exact same amount of information that you did.

Exactly what good would a solicitor do for the victim of a theft?

Jesus Shaves

MagicSean wrote: »

Exactly what good would a solicitor do for the victim of a theft?

If you read my posts you would see that i suggested going to a solicitor for advice on the legal implications of what the OP is suggesting on doing.

so would advice be the answer?

bath handle

darokane wrote: »

bath handle wrote: »

You suspect otherwise or you can put forward some infotmation to contradict it?

I can put forward the exact same amount of information that you did.

Which is none. Evidence is not a required subject for entry to the law society. It is not taught by the Law Society. Of the 10000 solicitors in the country only a few hundred are in the courts on criminal work daily. A few hundred more do some criminal work occassionally. Very few solicitors have ever appeared as advocates before a jury.

Rabidlamb

Best of luck OP, please report back, you've done this correctly, the guards way, don't worry about keyboard punters.
Fingers crossed for a good resolution.

niamhx

darokane wrote: »

niamhx wrote: »

Thanks everyone for all your advice.


Darakane, I've felt from the minute you posted you were against me, hence the reason I got snotty with you. Your comment about inheritance proves that ! Firstly I'm not the person who'll be getting any inheritance, I'm doing this to protect my aunt, wouldn't you ? She worked until she was 84 yrs old, cycled 10 miles a day. Doesn't that count for something ?? Should I let this lady keep stealing from her ? On you solicitor comment, it's bull****e ! I don't need one, but she will

I'm not against you, i'm against the way you are going about this, not telling your aunt is sneaky and underhanded, By what you just said the guards are hoping she will confess with the evidence against her(if it is her), i dont agree with you pointing the finger without absolute proof(innocent until proven guilty).
Throughout the whole thread you have sounded and looked immature about the whole situation.
That is all.

Do you get the fact that my aunt is 101 yrs of age at all ? I Dont think you do ! I'm not immature, I've done this the correct way, I may not have known how to deal with it, no crime in that. I've sought all the legal advice I need, I trust the garda to handle this, that's their job after all.

Thanks again to everyone who offered advice and support It will be a week or two before we can get together to sort this. We'll need to be free to be at the house everyday in order to check what's there or not, when we see the money has gone we've to call the guards and they'll pick her up. I'm having an operation on fri, I'll have to see how I recover first. In the meantime no more cash will be put in the box, what's there won't be removed I don't want her getting suspicious.

Jesus Shaves

niamhx wrote: »

Do you get the fact that my aunt is 101 yrs of age at all ? I Dont think you do !

You said she was of sound mind, in fact you said it was of sounder mind than yours in so many words, i don't doubt that at all.

MagicSean

niamhx wrote: »

Do you get the fact that my aunt is 101 yrs of age at all ? I Dont think you do ! I'm not immature, I've done this the correct way, I may not have known how to deal with it, no crime in that. I've sought all the legal advice I need, I trust the garda to handle this, that's their job after all.

Thanks again to everyone who offered advice and support It will be a week or two before we can get together to sort this. We'll need to be free to be at the house everyday in order to check what's there or not, when we see the money has gone we've to call the guards and they'll pick her up. I'm having an operation on fri, I'll have to see how I recover first. In the meantime no more cash will be put in the box, what's there won't be removed I don't want her getting suspicious.

To be honest, I don't think you should be posting the details of a sting on the internet.

Tayla

niamhx wrote: »

The guards said, she'll confess when she realises the amount of evidence we have against her, meaning my aunt will never need to know

Good luck with it all and for what it's worth, I think you are right to be shielding your aunt from this

One thing I would bear in mind is that the carer may say to the guards that you aunt told her to take it for some reason , if she says that then the gardai will probably have to question your aunt or else it will have to be dropped.

Dermot Illogical

An earlier poster mentioned the difficulty prosecuting without your aunt's co-operation. Ownership is a fundamental proof for a theft charge, so you will have difficulty prosecuting if any charge which may arise is contested by the accused.
It would be a whole lot simpler if you moved your aunt's money to a safe place and replaced it with your own. Put your money where your mouth is.
The camera is a very bad idea without your aunt's consent imho. Marking the cash is a much better idea.
My 2c

Dermot Illogical

Also, given that you've left out one of the main participants in this drama, be prepared for unexpected results. Things aren't always as they seem, and you're potentially missing part of the story by excluding your aunt and assuming the help is guilty.
Just sayin'...

niamhx

darokane wrote: »

niamhx wrote: »

Do you get the fact that my aunt is 101 yrs of age at all ? I Dont think you do !

You said she was of sound mind, in fact you said it was of sounder mind than yours in so many words, i don't doubt that at all.

Sound of mind yes ! Shes nearly totally deaf and blind, would you like her address too ? As i said you clearly dont get a 101 yr old. I deliberately haven't given out that many details for obvious reasons. But you don't seem to be able to stop yourself !

I won't be responding to you again.

Guys thanks, I have all the info I need. Carry on your debate, but I'm stepping out now. I've given away far more than I ever intended too.

Jesus Shaves

niamhx wrote: »

would you like her address too ? .

Stop being childish

Jesus Shaves

niamhx wrote: »

Guys would anyone have any advice on this....

Don't want to give too many details away on the Internet as hopefully this will lead to a prosecution for the bitch involved.

My aunt lives alone, we got a home help in a year ago to help her in the mornings, quick tidy up, help her get dressed etc. she'd normally save about €150 a week from her pension, always has done. We keep it in a box in her room, when it hits the €1,000 which it does very quickly we lodge it in her account. For the last few months, and before that we we thought it had been going down, certainly wasn't building up as quick as before ! Anyway over the last three weeks we've deliberately put €500 and odd in the box, it's been reduced to €400 first week, it was €600 last week, now there was only €320 in it !! Back up too, €560 god knows what will be left next week when I'm down.

No one else has access to this money, it's hidden in a chest of drawers. The home help is the only one that could have touched this money !

How do I go about catching her ? I want to get her prosecuted, otherwise she'll just move on to the next elderly person and do the same thing to them. I'm ringing a guy this evenin about a hidden camera, I need to catch her with her hand in the box. I was told its the only way to get her for sure ?

niamhx wrote: »

My aunt hasn't touched the money, she'd have no reason too. She's 101 (no joke) mentally, she's brighter than me lol

I went to my local Garda this evening, I need to make a statement in her local station and the guys will take it from there. Two options, the powder or the hidden camera. I'll get the bitch one way, it's just a shame I can't slap her as a third option !!

Thanks guys

niamhx wrote: »

Sound of mind yes ! Shes nearly totally deaf and blind, would you like her address too ? As i said you clearly dont get a 101 yr old. I deliberately haven't given out that many details for obvious reasons. But you don't seem to be able to stop yourself !

There are other examples but you're changing your "story" with every post, now she's deaf and blind?
Wind your neck in and let us know how you get on.

Maura74

niamhx wrote: »

Sound of mind yes ! Shes nearly totally deaf and blind, would you like her address too ? As i said you clearly dont get a 101 yr old. I deliberately haven't given out that many details for obvious reasons. But you don't seem to be able to stop yourself !

I won't be responding to you again.

Guys thanks, I have all the info I need. Carry on your debate, but I'm stepping out now. I've given away far more than I ever intended too.

niamhx hope you are successful with catching her as you can see from the links below this has been going for a long time as carers are just in the a job for money and that is ashamed because vulnerable people are put at risk by these people that are supposed to looking after them instead they are stealing from them.

Sad world we live in......

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2064957/Elderly-people-abused-carers-Neglect-bad-pensioners-wanted-die.html

http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk/news/burnleypendlerossendale/9224885.Burnley_carer_accused_of_stealing_from_patients/

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2044293/Bristol-carer-Amanda-Parker-caught-stealing-disabled-Lorraine-Andrews-CCTV.html

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/321471/Lynne-Chew-Thieving-carer-Caught-on-film-taking-patients-cash.html?print=yes

niamhx

darokane wrote: »

niamhx wrote: »

Guys would anyone have any advice on this....

Don't want to give too many details away on the Internet as hopefully this will lead to a prosecution for the bitch involved.

My aunt lives alone, we got a home help in a year ago to help her in the mornings, quick tidy up, help her get dressed etc. she'd normally save about €150 a week from her pension, always has done. We keep it in a box in her room, when it hits the €1,000 which it does very quickly we lodge it in her account. For the last few months, and before that we we thought it had been going down, certainly wasn't building up as quick as before ! Anyway over the last three weeks we've deliberately put €500 and odd in the box, it's been reduced to €400 first week, it was €600 last week, now there was only €320 in it !! Back up too, €560 god knows what will be left next week when I'm down.

No one else has access to this money, it's hidden in a chest of drawers. The home help is the only one that could have touched this money !

How do I go about catching her ? I want to get her prosecuted, otherwise she'll just move on to the next elderly person and do the same thing to them. I'm ringing a guy this evenin about a hidden camera, I need to catch her with her hand in the box. I was told its the only way to get her for sure ?

niamhx wrote: »

My aunt hasn't touched the money, she'd have no reason too. She's 101 (no joke) mentally, she's brighter than me lol

I went to my local Garda this evening, I need to make a statement in her local station and the guys will take it from there. Two options, the powder or the hidden camera. I'll get the bitch one way, it's just a shame I can't slap her as a third option !!

Thanks guys

niamhx wrote: »

Sound of mind yes ! Shes nearly totally deaf and blind, would you like her address too ? As i said you clearly dont get a 101 yr old. I deliberately haven't given out that many details for obvious reasons. But you don't seem to be able to stop yourself !

There are other examples but you're changing your "story" with every post, now she's deaf and blind?
Wind your neck in and let us know how you get on.

Where has my story changed ? I simply left out some details to protect myself and my aunt. I never said her body was perfect, I said her mind, she's 101 ffs. If your referring to my first post, I typed the post and then thought f**k this I'm going to sort this, pressed send, and went straight to the Garda station. Nothing wrong with that !

Do you think I'm making this up ? Not exactly mind blowing stuff, now is it ! My other half is a long time poster on boards, I've seen how people can get advice, I simply thought maybe I could too. Seems to me you should pull your own neck in, this really has nothing to do with you !

Janet1986

Niamhx get this thief and make sure her name gets printed in the local newspaper.

Jesus Shaves

niamhx wrote: »

Seems to me you should pull your own neck in, this really has nothing to do with you !

you posted on a public forum:rolleyes:

niamhx

Janet1986 wrote: »

Niamhx get this thief and make sure her name gets printed in the local newspaper.

That's the plan it's a small town, she'd be shamed for life !

johnboysligo

First off you should probably make sure your Aunt is willing to press charges and go to court because Garda wont act on anything regardless of proof unless she is dead serious about seeing it though. If she isnt willing they will just tell her straight up "we cant do anything more than advise you to replace the assistant"

Regardless you should buy a cash box or something similar for your aunt so that she can use to secure her money, maybe even try to arrange it so her money is paid paid directly into her bank accounts if such a thing is possible.

Kosseegan

johnboysligo wrote: »

First off you should probably make sure your Aunt is willing to press charges and go to court because Garda wont act on anything regardless of proof unless she is dead serious about seeing it though. If she isnt willing they will just tell her straight up "we cant do anything more than advise you to replace the assistant"

Regardless you should buy a cash box or something similar for your aunt so that she can use to secure her money, maybe even try to arrange it so her money is paid paid directly into her bank accounts if such a thing is possible.

First off, why not read the preceeding posts in a thread? Everything you are saying has already been said and dealt with. You have got things completely wrong.

Thoie

johnboysligo wrote: »

Regardless you should buy a cash box or something similar for your aunt so that she can use to secure her money, maybe even try to arrange it so her money is paid paid directly into her bank accounts if such a thing is possible.

Was just coming on to say the same thing - if you can't arrange for her pension to be paid into the bank, consider getting her something like this:

http://www.discountsafes.co.uk/Alpha_A180BED_Deposit_Safe_p/alpha%20a180bed%20deposit.htm

Ms Minnie Mouse

My grandma, when she was in her 90s, had difficulties with money going missing. No legal action was taken but the home help was dismissed.

Thank God no legal action was taken. When Grandma eventually went into a nursing home, the money was found in various places over her cottage. Apparently it was the onset of her dementia. She seemed as lucid as someone half her age at the time the money was 'disappearing'.

I don't doubt that these things happen but sometimes, on the odd occasion, there can be alternative explanations.

In the meantime, you have stated that you/family members collect her pension - I'd be inclined to put the €150 per week immediately into her bank account after collecting it, instead of a box in her bedroom. It is never, ever a good idea for anyone, especially elderly people, to have a large amount of cash in their home.

niamhx

Ms Minnie Mouse wrote: »

My grandma, when she was in her 90s, had difficulties with money going missing. No legal action was taken but the home help was dismissed.

Thank God no legal action was taken. When Grandma eventually went into a nursing home, the money was found in various places over her cottage. Apparently it was the onset of her dementia. She seemed as lucid as someone half her age at the time the money was 'disappearing'.

I don't doubt that these things happen but sometimes, on the odd occasion, there can be alternative explanations.

In the meantime, you have stated that you/family members collect her pension - I'd be inclined to put the €150 per week immediately into her bank account after collecting it, instead of a box in her bedroom. It is never, ever a good idea for anyone, especially elderly people, to have a large amount of cash in their home.

Thanks Minnie, the camera will show where the money has been going one way or the other. I agree with you about the money, but it's her choice to always have cash in the house, I think it stems from all the years she's had nothing ! I can't change her mind on that and honestly I just don't have the time to go to the bank, post office, shopping all in one day. She feels the same about having it paid into the bank, we've tried all the options over the years, she knows what she wants let me tell you !

Rabidlamb

Niamh, any update on this ?
Did you catch her red handed ?

Jesus Shaves

niamhx wrote: »

Thanks Minnie, the camera will show where the money has been going one way or the other. I agree with you about the money, but it's her choice to always have cash in the house, I think it stems from all the years she's had nothing ! I can't change her mind on that and honestly I just don't have the time to go to the bank, post office, shopping all in one day. She feels the same about having it paid into the bank, we've tried all the options over the years, she knows what she wants let me tell you !

Why won't you tell her about the camera so?

Stereomaniac

Yeah, personally I find that a little bit weird. You could just stay over with her for a while.

niamhx

No update as such. The Other family member that looks after her (more than me) decided that it was better to move/hide the money, shes leaving a a note with it with the amount added every week. My aunt knows money has been goin missing (other person told her) she wouldn't even consider the home help was pinching it. I sadly can't do anymore, it's not my place to fight it as I can't be there as often as the other family member. Job, kids, distance, pervents me from being there as much as I'd like.

This isn't the outcome I'd like, it doesn't sit well with me that whoever is doing this still has access to my aunt. I can't get the Garda involved if I don't have everyone on side.

Yes, the other family member is as odd as be f**ked. I'd have happily sat and watched whoever was doing this pay for it. Family's eh !!