Mens Shed for Greystones

BarryAlistair

Hi Men of Greystones,

Last summer, I was reading about the launch of a boat in Arklow, An Bád Inbhear Mór, http://www.wicklowpeople.ie/news/new-boat-takes-to-the-water-2810535.html and discovered the Men's Shed community project.

I loved the idea because not only did it seem to be a fabulous way of skill transfer, and particularly skills that are resigned to the graveyard, and it also provided a community for 'all' men to hook into, and this is really important for people who are feeling isolated, need to talk to people, or just want to hang out.

Some further info on the Men's Shed movement in Ireland
http://www.menssheds.ie/

At the time I read this article, I was a little pre-occupied so couldn't do more about it. Six months later, I still am, so in an effort to make a Greystone's Men's Shed a reality, I asked Ciaran Hayden if he might help.

It is our plan to hold a 'consultation' meeting in early February, and we'd like to encourage all local men who are interested in participating to come along.

In the meantime, if you have any constructive views on a Greystones' Men's Shed, like the type of activities etc, or would like to be involved in the set-up, launch and ongoing running of it, or would like to offer your expertise, skills or knowledge, please post below.

Best
BArry

BarryAlistair

Also, if you could tell your friends, brothers, fathers, grandfathers, sons, uncles, nephews.......

And there is also a Facebook Group for the facebookers https://www.facebook.com/groups/251004271635107/

Best
BArry

dudmis

This looks very interesting. Do you have any plans already in place (eg potential projects, location etc) or will that all be decided over the coming months?

It might be worthwhile to talk to St David's school - some of the pupils (and the teachers!) might be interested in this.

BarryAlistair

Thanks for your post Dudmis. The projects will be anything the men who attend decide they want to do.

I believe Ciaran is talking to the council about a few options regarding the location of a HQ.

Thanks for suggesting we contact St Davids. It would be so cool if there were young lads wanting to come along and be the benefactors of the skills and knowledge the older guys handed down, because in part this is exactly what men's shed is about. In fact I'd say it would be a sign of a successful community project if there were men from all age groups attending.

Cheeky Chops

Why is it a good idea for our young people to join a single sex organisation? I am very uncomfortable with the idea. We are not living in the 1950's.

Why is it male only? What benefit does it have?

A call to the men ... brothers, fathers, grandfathers, sons, uncles, nephews. What century are we living in?

pixbyjohn

There is an alternative...you know :rolleyes::D
http://www.ica.ie/

Cheeky Chops

I suspect you are being cheeky Sir John of the Camera?

As if ....

FirstIn

Can I join Curves?

darter

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

Why is it a good idea for our young people to join a single sex organisation? I am very uncomfortable with the idea. We are not living in the 1950's.

Why is it male only? What benefit does it have?

A call to the men ... brothers, fathers, grandfathers, sons, uncles, nephews. What century are we living in?

I agree with your concerns. Whilst there are men of a certain generation who did not learn or were not taught to be comfortable around women, that certainly is in the past - the ancient past in many progressive countries (eg Scandinavia). Modern young Irish men in concert with their peers worldwide want gender equality, and will not be well tutored by role models who feel men should be separate from women.

Yes, let those who need a Men's Shed have their area where they can go and hide away from modern real society, but this certainly should NOT be promoted as a civic activity and should NOT receive civic funding.

Now, a "Youth Shed" where youths of both genders are tutored by their peers and elders would be an excellent facility for Greystones, and that is something that the whole community could come behind and support.

dudmis

I'm really disappointed that this initiative is getting this reaction. I dont think that the women of Greystones will be any way disadvantaged by the Men's Shed. There are plenty of initiatives that are women only - eg 'Women's NIght Out" and if women feel that they too would benefit from a "womens shed' or an 'all sex shed' (pardon the pun), well, we should start one up.

And while I'm all for inclusiveness, I also recognise that sometimes its nice to meet my girlfriends and natter about things that wouldn't necessarily interest my men friends. I'm sure the guys are the same. Hence the Shed.

darter

dudmis wrote: »

I'm really disappointed that this initiative is getting this reaction. I dont think that the women of Greystones will be any way disadvantaged by the Men's Shed. There are plenty of initiatives that are women only - eg 'Women's NIght Out" and if women feel that they too would benefit from a "womens shed' or an 'all sex shed' (pardon the pun), well, we should start one up.

And while I'm all for inclusiveness, I also recognise that sometimes its nice to meet my girlfriends and natter about things that wouldn't necessarily interest my men friends. I'm sure the guys are the same. Hence the Shed.

This response reminds me of the Swiss canton of Appenzell that refused to give women the vote until 1990 when a tiny minority of enlightened women of the canton took the canton to Switzerland's Federal Supreme Court. Up until then the staunchest supporters of the status quo were the women of Appenzell! The voters of the canton had refused women's suffrage in 1959 by 2050 votes to 105.

Anyone in Sweden who proposed setting up a "Men's Shed" would be laughed out of the room and taken to a special place and wrapped in a jacket with buckles on the back.

When you fly from Stockholm to Greystones, you don't put your watch back an hour, you put it back 50 years!

Noffles

darter wrote: »

This response reminds me of the Swiss canton of Appenzell that refused to give women the vote until 1990 when a tiny minority of enlightened women of the canton took the canton to Switzerland's Federal Supreme Court. Up until then the staunchest supporters of the status quo were the women of Appenzell! The voters of the canton had refused women's suffrage in 1959 by 2050 votes to 105.

Anyone in Sweden who proposed setting up a "Men's Shed" would be laughed out of the room and taken to a special place and wrapped in a jacket with buckles on the back.

When you fly from Stockholm to Greystones, you don't put your watch back an hour, you put it back 50 years!

Just ignore it then, it's not doing any harm and you seem to be looking at it in the comletely wrong way.

You also must be VERY rich to have your own flight from Stockholm to Greystones... oh and your watch is wrong too.

dudmis

Interestingly enough, a quick internet search shows that an Australian researcher promoting Men's Sheds gave a talk in Sweden in 2007 re: ‘Social, local and situated: evidence and insights from Australian research into the effectiveness of older men’s learning in community contexts’, B. Golding, Paper to Second Nordic Conference on Adult Learning, 17-19 April 2007, Lingkoping University, Sweden.

Not only was he not "laughed out of the room and taken to a special place and wrapped in a jacket with buckles on the back", he was invited back for to give another talk on the topic in 2010. "‘Men learning about communication and wellbeing through community involvement: Evidence from an empirical Australian study’, B. Golding, Paper to Conference of the European Society for Research into the Education of Adults (ESREA), 23-26 Sept, Linkoping, Sweden."

Jimjay

I personally would prefer a 'community shed' if any shed is going to be built.
I don't really understand it, is it like an allotment where if you don't have your own garden you rent another one? Suppose if you don't have your own shed you would use this one?

I read the article about the sheds. Saw the men in arklow built a boat, do they now argue over who will use the boat next weekend?

Btw is there many elder men in greystones that need to learn communication and wellbeing skills through community projects? Sounds a bit patronising.

Annasopra

I'm a man who wants gender equality. I identify as a feminist and an egalitarian. I don't see any problem here at all. I would support the ELLE project for women funded by Bray Partnership and I would support this initiative.

Annasopra

Jimjay wrote: »

Btw is there many elder men in greystones that need to learn communication and wellbeing skills through community projects? Sounds a bit patronising.

Doesn't sound patronising at all to me

darter

dudmis wrote: »

Interestingly enough, a quick internet search shows that an Australian researcher promoting Men's Sheds gave a talk in Sweden in 2007 re: ‘Social, local and situated: evidence and insights from Australian research into the effectiveness of older men’s learning in community contexts’, B. Golding, Paper to Second Nordic Conference on Adult Learning, 17-19 April 2007, Lingkoping University, Sweden.

QED!

pixbyjohn

Actually this idea of people getting together and sharing in their hobbies/activities/knowledge is as old as the hills in Ireland. Many men get together for card games rotating the venue between their homes. Also I am aware of several people sharing their knowledge of woodturning in various sheds around the county. Also the various clubs are in reality sheds where people share their knowledge, the Greystones Camera Club is a prime example. Most of the above include both male and female members (maybe the card games were mainly male) .
Also music, song and dancing is and always was another activity which was carried on in the communities of Ireland mainly in houses in the past and now in various venues. I can understand how some of the posters are not happy with a men only shed group.

darter

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm a man who wants gender equality. I identify as a feminist and an egalitarian. I don't see any problem here at all. I would support the ELLE project for women funded by Bray Partnership and I would support this initiative.

On you go then mango salsa, your prerogative. I also fight actively for gender equality - you don't have the monopoly on that.

Yes, as I said I see the need for older men who were brought up in another time, but not for the modern man.

My point is that this initiative should NOT receive public funding. Simple as that.

dudmis

I may have missed it, but I don't see anything to say that this project will receive public money?

Annasopra

darter wrote: »

On you go then mango salsa, your prerogative. I also fight actively for gender equality - you don't have the monopoly on that.

Yes, as I said I see the need for older men who were brought up in another time, but not for the modern man.

My point is that this initiative should NOT receive public funding. Simple as that.

That's extremely patronising towards older men to suggest that they are backward and wouldn't support gender equality

darter

dudmis wrote: »

I may have missed it, but I don't see anything to say that this project will receive public money?

Perhaps I am over-reading too much into the statement by Councillor Ciaran Hayden that he "will be talking to the local Authority":
http://www.greystonesguide.ie/mens-shed-for-greystones/

Why else does a Councillor talk to a local authority about something he really don't need to talk to a local authority about, except to get funding?

Annasopra

dudmis wrote: »

I may have missed it, but I don't see anything to say that this project will receive public money?

I don't see why it shouldn't

Pobal provides funding for two projects for women in Bray

see pages 32 and 33

https://www.pobal.ie/Funding%20Programmes/ewm/Beneficiaries/Documents/Project%20Directory%20EWM%202010-2013%20Final.pdf

darter

mango salsa wrote: »

That's extremely patronising towards older men to suggest that they are backward and wouldn't support gender equality

I suggested nothing of the sort, and I resent the insult. You are being purposely argumentative.

It is reality to state that older men were raised in a time when women's role was in the kitchen and child-rearing. The modern woman is as different from the woman of older men's generation as chalk-and-cheese. What has been slow to move has been men's attitudes. And here we have a prime example.

Tiradon

While this doesn't generally interest me, I have no objections or concerns to it being set up at all. I had a feeling when the thread was created it would only be a matter of time before an equality argument began. The fact is, there are countless women only groups (both official and unoffical) and some which do receive public money yet when/if men try and do the same, it's deemed backward and sexist.

From reading the releases, it suggests that Ciaran Hayden is contacting the local authority to discuss potential premises to locate the Group rather than looking for actual funding.

Like I said, this doesn't particularly interest me but let's not create issues and arguments for the sake of doing so.

mikedragon32

This topic was done on The Last Word on Today FM some time ago where the founder of Men's Sheds was talking with Matt Cooper.

The idea is a sound one. In this day and age there is often little time for men to learn the skills of DIY or even have somewhere to discuss things in a men-only environment such as men's health. Having a place where a group of men can take on projects, learn skills and interact is not a bad thing.

As for the posters equating this to the dark ages (or 1990 in Switzerland), I find it somewhat baffling. What is wrong with a men only initiative. Women have plenty of gender specific clubs/societies/activities from which men are excluded. Can't men just have one thing for themselves?

It's not like you have to join it! (I won't be... but can't see why the option shouldn't be there)

Mijoal

Hi, I'm new to Boards and new to Greystones, and I'd like to say what a fab idea I think it is to have a 'men's shed' here. I have a 5 yr old boy (I'm a stay at home mum) and I think its vitally important to a boy's development that he spends time with men, away from us female role models. I get plenty of opportunities to spend time with the 'girls' but my husband doesn't have the same luxury, as he's not local and travels a lot with his job, so can't commit to regular clubs in order to meet people. As for being worried that I'll somehow be transported back to the 50's for believing that men and women ARE actually different, and have the right to spend time in the company of there own sex, then so be it, but it strikes me that the women who have issues with this really need to get some girlfriends of their own and get out more. If you were comfortable with your own sex then you might not be so bothered about a bunch of men wanting to tinker in a shed building boats, or whatever other healthy pastime they to chose to have!

Cheeky Chops

I completely agree with Darter.

Mijoal wrote: »

Hi, I'm new to Boards and new to Greystones, and I'd like to say what a fab idea I think it is to have a 'men's shed' here. I have a 5 yr old boy (I'm a stay at home mum) and I think its vitally important to a boy's development that he spends time with men, away from us female role models. I get plenty of opportunities to spend time with the 'girls' but my husband doesn't have the same luxury, as he's not local and travels a lot with his job, so can't commit to regular clubs in order to meet people. As for being worried that I'll somehow be transported back to the 50's for believing that men and women ARE actually different, and have the right to spend time in the company of there own sex, then so be it, but it strikes me that the women who have issues with this really need to get some girlfriends of their own and get out more. If you were comfortable with your own sex then you might not be so bothered about a bunch of men wanting to tinker in a shed building boats, or whatever other healthy pastime they to chose to have!

That's an unnecessary and personal attack from a regular poster let alone a first time poster.

I agree a youth project would be a wonderful idea with mentoring from all the groups in our society.

I am still annoyed about comments that were made about how women and children should not be down at the harbour (or some similar nonsense) and this "call for men" has rightly got my back up and I totally oppose it.

Annasopra

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

I am still annoyed about comments that were made about how women and children should not be down at the harbour (or some similar nonsense)

what comments?

Cheeky Chops

Sorry - out of context I now realise. It was on the harbour thread - a councillor made them.

dudmis

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

I agree a youth project would be a wonderful idea with mentoring from all the groups in our society.

I agree totally - I would love this see this too.

But can't we have both? Having a Men's Shed doesn't mean that a youth project isn't possible.

Tiradon

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

I am still annoyed about comments that were made about how women and children should not be down at the harbour (or some similar nonsense) and this "call for men" has rightly got my back up and I totally oppose it.

I completely agree that such a comment re: the harbour is completely unacceptable and should not be condoned but the whole harbour issue is separate to this. I don't believe the initiative being suggested on this thread is a "call to men". I believe it's merely an idea to provide a forum or an outlet for men to utilise should they see fit.

The beauty of forums like boards.ie is that they allow people to express opinions on certain issues but that's just what they are, opinions, so while this initiative has "got your back up", that's a matter of opinion rather than fact so I think to say "rightly got your back up" might br a bit extreme.

pixbyjohn

BarryAlistair wrote: »

so in an effort to make a Greystone's Men's Shed a reality, I asked Ciaran Hayden if he might help.

BArry

This part of the original post may be the cause why so many posters are against the idea of a mens shed..... me thinks.
I am neither for or against the idea of a mens shed.

Annasopra

edit; taken out of context

Tiradon

mango salsa wrote: »

Sorry - what comments? - I haven't seen any of these comments at all

Sorry, meant to say if such a comment was made.

Annasopra

dudmis wrote: »

I agree totally - I would love this see this too.

But can't we have both? Having a Men's Shed doesn't mean that a youth project isn't possible.

I think the Greystones peoples project might have some sort of youth element

Cheeky Chops

I have never heard of that Mango.

The Greystones School Project is wonderful but is only for 2 weeks in the summer. Very inclusive and heartwarming to see the older teens and parents volunteering their time. Anyway I'm off to my shed

BarryAlistair

There's some great debate on the Men's Shed concept.

You know, what really interested me about Men's Shed are the health benefits of such a club. I, like probably everyone who has posted in this thread, have had to deal with the fallout of suicide on far too many occasions in the last 3-4 years. Mainly, although not exclusively, men's suicide.

So my interest in Men's Shed is nothing to do with equality etc etc. but rather creating an environment where men could come and feel comfortable in talking about their problems, challenges and pressures.

If you think this is a **** idea because it excludes women, I suggest you go tell that to all the mothers, wives, girlfriends, sisters, daughters and nieces of those men who haven't been able to hack the pressure that has fallen on them in recent times. I'm pretty confident they wouldn't have had a problem with such a place if it meant their loved ones were still with them.

I'm a little disappointed that the thread has become about gender because it would seem that not too many people have looked at the Men's Shed website to understand why it's a Men's Shed, and not a Unisex Shed.

http://www.menssheds.ie/about-us/

Best
BArry

Cheeky Chops

The suicide rate amongst young and middle aged men is horrifying. Every study has shown that men do not communicate mental health problems with other men. No male only groups have ever shown results of reducing suicide rates.

Are you a professional in the field because if you are I am dismayed at your comments. I find your approach endorses the "man alone" with no one to speak to.

Research has shown that a more integrated approach is much more productive. That means more lives saved going forward.

BarryAlistair

No, I'm not a professional in the field of mental health. Although I have spoken to professionals on this concept and every one of them viewed it positively. That of course is not to say that every professional, like you for example, (given your speed of reply quoting generalised facts I'm assuming you are), would say the same.

BarryAlistair

And again, please read the Men's Shed website, and men's health and wellbeing. I use suicide because it is a factor that has affect me.

Annasopra

Cheeky Chops wrote: »

The suicide rate amongst young and middle aged men is horrifying. Every study has shown that men do not communicate mental health problems with other men. No male only groups have ever shown results of reducing suicide rates.

Are you a professional in the field because if you are I am dismayed at your comments. I find your approach endorses the "man alone" with no one to speak to.

Research has shown that a more integrated approach is much more productive. That means more lives saved going forward.

I'm not sure how you deduce that Barry is suggesting a "man alone" approach at all - he is suggesting the exact opposite - something that encourages communication between men and intergenerational solidarity.

dudmis

Sorry for posting reams of text but I got the following para from the Irish National Men’s Health Policy:

Internationally, there is a scarcity of evaluated health promotion programmes that target men. A good example of one such evaluation is that of the ‘Alive and Well’, Suicide Awareness Programme, run in the Wheatbelt of Western Australia. The key factors underpinning the success of this programme include using a community-based approach that targeted men where they gathered and the use of a variety of strategies that included presentations, training and on-site counselling.

‘Men’s Sheds’ organisations in southern Australia are another good example of community-based health promotion targeting men. Since the mid-1990s, 192 of these organizations have been established, engaging mostly with older men who are no longer working in paid employment and who have proved difficult to engage in conventional health, education and training initiatives. Through the provision of ‘mateship’ and a sense of belonging through positive and therapeutic informal activities, ‘Men’s Sheds’ achieve outcomes of positive health, happiness and well-being for those men who participate, as well as for their partners, families and communities.

Cheeky Chops

BarryAlistair wrote: »

And again, please read the Men's Shed website, and men's health and wellbeing. I use suicide because it is a factor that has affect me.

I'm sorry it has affected you personally .. that is something I would not wish on anyone. On a professional level encouraging male only groups with our kids is not healthy and not sensible. Boys do not chat about feelings. With girls involved they may. This shed idea goes against any research done on how to deal with teen males. Interaction is key.

Annasopra

pixbyjohn wrote: »

This part of the original post may be the cause why so many posters are against the idea of a mens shed..... me thinks.
I am neither for or against the idea of a mens shed.

Please be careful with comments like this and do not leave boards.ie open to a legal action. Any problems - send me a pm

darter

mikedragon32 wrote: »

This topic was done on The Last Word on Today FM some time ago where the founder of Men's Sheds was talking with Matt Cooper.

The idea is a sound one. In this day and age there is often little time for men to learn the skills of DIY or even have somewhere to discuss things in a men-only environment such as men's health. Having a place where a group of men can take on projects, learn skills and interact is not a bad thing.

As for the posters equating this to the dark ages (or 1990 in Switzerland), I find it somewhat baffling. What is wrong with a men only initiative. Women have plenty of gender specific clubs/societies/activities from which men are excluded. Can't men just have one thing for themselves?

It's not like you have to join it! (I won't be... but can't see why the option shouldn't be there)

The idea is NOT a sound one mikedragon32, and pontificating doesn't make it sound. What is wrong with young women learning DIY? It's as likely as not that women have to fix up their homes. What's wrong with young men and young women learning DIY AT THE SAME TIME IN THE SAME PLACE?

Having a place where a group of PEOPLE can take on projects, learn skills and interact is a very good thing.

The reason there are women-only initiatives is entirely to do with intimidation they feel in the presence of men. If men ever grow up and truely treat women as equals, there wouldn't be a need for such initiatives, apart from those based on medical differences that is.

Anyway, as you say, there won't be the obligation to join. My points are that this initiative should not receive public funding, and it is not a milieu that presents role models for the young men of today. It is an anachronism.

Charlie-Bravo

I also will not be looking to join this. I do however have an issue with if they get public funding when they can't supply new playground equipment or replace the kid's roundabout in the Charlesland playground due to 'lack of funds'. I'm repeatng myself I know.

darter

dudmis wrote: »

Sorry for posting reams of text but I got the following para from the Irish National Men’s Health Policy:

Internationally, there is a scarcity of evaluated health promotion programmes that target men. A good example of one such evaluation is that of the ‘Alive and Well’, Suicide Awareness Programme, run in the Wheatbelt of Western Australia. The key factors underpinning the success of this programme include using a community-based approach that targeted men where they gathered and the use of a variety of strategies that included presentations, training and on-site counselling.

‘Men’s Sheds’ organisations in southern Australia are another good example of community-based health promotion targeting men. Since the mid-1990s, 192 of these organizations have been established, engaging mostly with older men who are no longer working in paid employment and who have proved difficult to engage in conventional health, education and training initiatives. Through the provision of ‘mateship’ and a sense of belonging through positive and therapeutic informal activities, ‘Men’s Sheds’ achieve outcomes of positive health, happiness and well-being for those men who participate, as well as for their partners, families and communities.

I don't know why you keep referring to Australian experiences. OK, Australia is a developed country on a par with Ireland, but although it has a very high HDI (human development index) ranking (2nd), its gender equality ranking is 18th!
http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2011_EN_Table4.pdf

Mind you, Ireland's gender equality ranking is 33rd, for a HDI ranking of 7th. The equality of females is not on par with the human development of the country, and that is reflected in the comments we are seeing from those who consider themselves enlightened.

Do we really want to mimic a country with such a poor gender equality ranking? Why not aim for Sweden (1st) or the Netherlands (2nd)? How many Mens Sheds or Mens Shed like movements are there in Sweden, Netherlands, Denmark, Switzerland, etc. etc. ?

BarryAlistair

Oh, you mean Australia's only 18th. As in 18th out of the "173" countries in the table?

darter

BarryAlistair wrote: »

Oh, you mean Australia's only 18th. As in 18th out of the "173" countries in the table?

Exactly Barry. 18th, but with a HDI of 2nd. Mind you, you come from the UK, which is worse than Ireland at 34th in gender equality.

My point is, again, should we not wish to emulate countries that are first or second in gender equality? Rather than give examples from a country that is the 2nd most developed in the world, but nonetheless has a relatively poor gender equality given its elevated position in HDI ranking?

mikedragon32

darter wrote: »

The idea is NOT a sound one mikedragon32, and pontificating doesn't make it sound. What is wrong with young women learning DIY? It's as likely as not that women have to fix up their homes. What's wrong with young men and young women learning DIY AT THE SAME TIME IN THE SAME PLACE?

Having a place where a group of PEOPLE can take on projects, learn skills and interact is a very good thing.

The reason there are women-only initiatives is entirely to do with intimidation they feel in the presence of men. If men ever grow up and truely treat women as equals, there wouldn't be a need for such initiatives, apart from those based on medical differences that is.

Anyway, as you say, there won't be the obligation to join. My points are that this initiative should not receive public funding, and it is not a milieu that presents role models for the young men of today. It is an anachronism.

Pontificating? Okay. It seems that anything I post which is contrary to your world view is pontificating, it's not the first time you've accused me of it. Disagree with me by all means but try not to force a tone on my posts that is neither implied or intended.

Have we really come to this, that men can't organise something for themselves without veiled accusations of chauvinism or that women don't go to things men go to for fear of intimidation? Did you read any of the information the OP linked to?

I play rugby and already have the knowledge that I have a group of men with whom I can talk when needs be without judgement about things for which I want a man's perspective. For example a while back I went through a major setback and needed to talk with men whom I consider to be friends and peers. It helped more than I could ever thank them for and I feel that while I would have perhaps got support from my female friends, it wasn't something I wanted to talk to them about.

If some men don't have the outlets I have, then the Men's Shed is something they might find useful. It's not about the DIY, it's about men feeling they have an environment in which they feel comfortable opening up about issues they experience. If they do some good in the community while they're at the shed, so much the better.