Mens Shed for Greystones

darter

You're establishing exactly my point mikedragon32. Thank you.

Try living in Sweden or Denmark or one of those other progressive countries where there is far better gender equality and you would be raised in a milieu from birth in which you seek the company of your friends, regardless of gender, in times of need.



P.S. Can't remember when I ever said anything about you before on these boards publicly. You are possibly referring to something we disagreed about privately when you were acting in your role as mod and I was chagrined by your actions and stance that I thought totally inappropriate? Let's not waste time on that though, or we'll have other mods after us for straying from the topic.

mikedragon32

Nope. But as you say, let's not drag this off topic.

BarryAlistair

LOL, I am indeed from the UK, and not that it has any bearing in this matter I will concede your attempt to re-inforce your point.

Equality, and not just gender equality, is extremely important and I for one live in the hope that every country strives to better itself in this regard. That said, no matter how good, there will always be a #1 and a #173.

One thing is for certain, nowhere on the Men's Shed website does it state that it's men only because women are not wanted, or because woman are not 'worthy' or 'capable' or 'whatever'.

Someone made the point earlier that women's groups are a result of women feeling intimidated by men, or where there are medical reasons to exclude men. The Men's Shed concept is not too different in this regard.

If men want to hang out with men, then surely it's their choice. Just like it's the choice of women to hang out with women, and men and women to hang out with each other. People ought not to jump to conclusions and say that these groups show inequality, the same as two men, or two women, having a pint or a coffee together to discuss matters best discussed between people / groups they identify.

To suggest the Men's Shed concept is anything else is simply unfair and inaccurate and un-informed.

Best
BArry

BarryAlistair

I think MikeDragon32 makes my point much more eloquently.

2011

darter wrote: »

The reason there are women-only initiatives is entirely to do with intimidation they feel in the presence of men. If men ever grow up and truely treat women as equals, there wouldn't be a need for such initiatives, apart from those based on medical differences that is.

A little over the top and one sided possibly??

JanneG

darter wrote: »

You're establishing exactly my point mikedragon32. Thank you.

Try living in Sweden or Denmark or one of those other progressive countries where there is far better gender equality and you would be raised in a milieu from birth in which you seek the company of your friends, regardless of gender, in times of need.



P.S. Can't remember when I ever said anything about you before on these boards publicly. You are possibly referring to something we disagreed about privately when you were acting in your role as mod and I was chagrined by your actions and stance that I thought totally inappropriate? Let's not waste time on that though, or we'll have other mods after us for straying from the topic.

Let's just say that you have obviously never lived nor spent any major amount of time in any of the countries that you mention... I can tell you that there are plenty of clubs/organisations/associations that are men only in Sweden, Denmark and Norway for example...

Do women make a big deal out of it and call it chauvanistic? No, because they go off and do their own thing...

To say that this idea is just that is to me just absurd... but sure, what do I know? I've only grown up in this previously mentioned milieu in Sweden...

Just my two cent...

dudmis

darter wrote: »

I don't know why you keep referring to Australian experiences.

I was responding to the previous poster who made the comment

Every study has shown that men do not communicate mental health problems with other men. No male only groups have ever shown results of reducing suicide rates.

.

And while it referred to an Australian programme, it was taken from an Irish policy document.

And, I don't think Australian men are all that different from Irish men and would imagine that the benefits would be comparable. (and before you ask, I have lived there too )

darter

2011 wrote: »

A little over the top and one sided possibly??

Not quite sure what you mean 2011, but possibly that's reciprocated - you don't know what I mean.

Try to put your mind in a place where there are no genders, where men and women mix freely and treat each other as equals in ALL things. That is true gender equality.

Yes, of course there are differences and we recognise and cherish those, but those differences are minor compared to the similarities, and should not cause us to have separate programmes for interaction, mentoring and training, especially of our youth.

One surprising thing, and perhaps counter to some of the arguments presented, is that there is no inverse correlation between gender equality and male suicide rate, as I would expect thinking that in gender equal countries men have twice as many friends for outlets of their emotions. The suicide rate of around 20 (+/- 5) per 100,000 per year seems to be constant across the whole of Europe - except puzzlingly for the UK where it is half that.
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide_rates/en/

Looking at that list, it is obvious what the solution to male suicide rate is - move to the Caribbean! This tongue-firmly-in-cheek remark is not meant at all to disparage a serious problem, but to point out that a Caribbean mentality does not result in any desperate feelings of emptiness. I am guessing this is because of the community spirit - everyone helps everyone else, regardless of gender. There are NO Men's Sheds in the Caribbean!

Anyway, I have made my points enough I think. Let those from a bygone age who are uncomfortable in the presence of women go ahead with this initiative, but no public money and it should not be promoted to the modern youth. I rest my case.

darter

JanneG wrote: »

Let's just say that you have obviously never lived nor spent any major amount of time in any of the countries that you mention...

Actually I have lived in Sweden and some of the others that have far higher gender equality rates than Ireland...

dudmis

There is one difference between Ireland and Australia that is becoming apparent though.

In Australia, if a private individual decided to spend his own time and effort in developing something for a sector of his community out of his own good will, he would be congratulated and supported.

It would be nice if we could follow this example.

The Bishop Basher

I can't believe the drivel i'm reading on here. Some of you would look for an argument at a funeral.

In a country where men's mental health is such a serious issue and where we have such a significant sucide rate, particularly among males, an intiative like this should be welcomed.

We have had a number of suicides in Greystones over the last 5 years, all but one of which as far as i'm aware were men. There may well be others I didn't hear about as there is such a stigma about it.

These sheds have been shown to benefit the mental well being in the many communities in which they exist.

For those of you who seem to want to take political correctness to the extreme, I would remind you that now matter how much you want us all to be the same, we're not. Men and women are fundamentally different both physically and mentally and not least in the way we approach mental and personal issues.

This does not and should not effect equality in any way.

While I may not use it I fully support this initiative and I wish BarryAlistair every success.

And to those of you who are so opposed....what are you doing for your community ?

darter

Swanner wrote: »

In a country where men's mental health is such a serious issue and where we have such a significant sucide rate, particularly among males, an intiative like this should be welcomed.

Swanner, the male suicide rate in Ireland is no different from any other European country, except oddly the UK where it is approx. half the rate. There is nothing special about Ireland that causes men to decide to take their own lives - it is an endemic problem for the whole of Europe to deal with. It is not a globally pandemic problem however, and we need to look to those countries with far lower rates for solutions. Mens Sheds and equivalents have not proven themselves to be solutions.

Perhaps those who have views should look to facts to back them up before they present their views as gospel - except not today, as wikipedia is off-line for the day...

The Bishop Basher

darter wrote: »

Mens Sheds and equivalents have not proven themselves to be solutions.

Perhaps those who have views should look to facts to back them up before they present their views as gospel - except not today, as wikipedia is off-line for the day...

I don't think anyone is saying they are a panacea for all male mental health issues but many of us have little doubt that they can contribute to the mental and physical wellbeing of men. Their success alone is testament to that in my opinion.

Anyway, please follow your own advice and provide the facts, with sources that prove that these sheds have not proven themsleves to be solutions.

Ophiopogon

On topic...I don't really understand the argument against the mens shed...I've read the thread a couple of times and I'm not sure where the problems lies.

I'm personally not the fond of same sex clubs/soc's as for me it's just not balanced enough but I know others can feel a bit more comfortable with their own sex so if that's what they want then what's the harm. Although, would have a issue with this applying to golf courses but thats another storey.

Slightly off topic...is there such think as a unisex club for sharing skills like covered in the mens shed, woodturning, DIY, etc. I have been looking for something like this.

darter

Swanner wrote: »

Anyway, please follow your own advice and provide the facts, with sources that prove that these sheds have not proven themsleves to be solutions.

Logically impossible to prove the lack of existence. One can only disprove theories, never prove them (Karl Popper). But good try - you are beginning to think in terms of bringing facts to the issue rather than unsubstantiated feelings. But then you spoil it by saying but many of us have little doubt that they can contribute to the mental and physical wellbeing of men. Many used to have little doubt that the world was flat... Popular opinion is not a good indicator of the truth.

Those who advocate that Men's Sheds are a solution to men's mental health issues are duty-bound to demonstrate that that is the case. Yes, we all think that that may be the case, but do Men's Sheds actually reach out to those in real need, who by the nature of their need are unwilling to engage in any form of companionship?

Men's Sheds would do better if they were to drop this whole fallacious argument about addressing men's mental health issues and stick to what they really are. A place for men who were raised in a different age with a different perspective on the role of women in society from the modern man.

darter

Ophiopogon wrote: »

Slightly off topic...is there such think as a unisex club for sharing skills like covered in the mens shed, woodturning, DIY, etc. I have been looking for something like this.

Actually, this is one of the main points against Men's Sheds in my view. If a Men's Shed gets established in Greystones, the possibility of establishing a unisex club as you wish will be even more unlikely.

If only those who are advocating a Men's Shed would be more inclusive and think about a People's Shed, we would ALL be behind it in an instant!

skelliser

I was delighted to see this thread title after hearing the interview on Matt Cooper but as i read it i grow angrier!!

Did it ever occur to the negative posters on this thread that us men would like to go somewhere where there isnt women?

Iv nothing against women, i actually love being around them. Many of my close friends are women. But at the end of the day a place where i can go and talk and learn with other men would be brilliant.

Did it ever occur that men have there own issues and would rather talk to other men?

It seems to me that equality has become/hijacked a vehicle solely for the benefit of women. Why is an idea like this which has proven success to increase the well being and health of men in other countries now un-PC or unequal.

Im sure the naysayers will say, well sure cant ye go down the pub.
Well i say we have enough problems with drink in this country.

Women have so many women only groups. The largest being the ICA. Its funny to note that when this was suggested earlier in the thread it was laughed at.
I have no problems with the ICA and i doubt many men tho.

So why is it that when an equivalent organisation is trying to get started here for men are so many people here up in arms?!


I think some of the naysayer would do well to read the mission statement

Most men have learned from our culture that they don’t talk about feelings and emotions. There has been little encouragement for men to take an interest in their own health and well-being. Unlike women, most men are reluctant to talk about their emotions and that means that they usually don’t ask for help. Probably because of this many men are less healthy than women, they drink more, take more risks and they suffer more from isolation, loneliness and depression.

I think many posters here are very close minded and naive.

“Men don’t talk face to face; they talk shoulder to shoulder”

And as for proof, show me the proof that the ICA or any other womens only group improves health?!

What are your solutions to dealing with mens health and wellbeing?

Ophiopogon

darter wrote: »

Actually, this is one of the main points against Men's Sheds in my view. If a Men's Shed gets established in Greystones, the possibility of establishing a unisex club as you wish will be even more unlikely.

If only those who are advocating a Men's Shed would be more inclusive and think about a People's Shed, we would ALL be behind it in an instant!

Well yeah I see your point but I also think there could be a market for both. I wouldn't want to force someone into an envirnomenet they didn't want to be in. As I said some people like to be with just men or just women why would you try and force them into a unsex club if they don't want to. It's is important for everyone mental health that they have some sort of social interaction so why not let them choose where they would feel most comfortable.

I would only have a problem if it was advocting ONLY socialise with your only sex which, maybe I'm missing it, but I don't think this is what they are doing.

I do like learning new skills and I would like the idea of a "people" shed but again some people don't.

darter

Ophiopogon wrote: »

Well yeah I see your point but I also think there could be a market for both. I wouldn't want to force someone into an envirnomenet they didn't want to be in. As I said some people like to be with just men or just women why would you try and force them into a unsex club if they don't want to. It's is important for everyone mental health that they have some sort of social interaction so why not let them choose where they would feel most comfortable.

I would only have a problem if it was advocting ONLY socialise with your only sex which, maybe I'm missing it, but I don't think this is what they are doing.

I do like learning new skills and I would like the idea of a "people" shed but again some people don't.

OK. Here's a thought. A People's Shed that has Men-Only days perhaps twice or three times a week? Could have a Women-Only day or two as well if the demand exists.

How about trying that out for a year and seeing where it goes. Those who run the People's Shed could iterate after a year - more or less Men-Only days to fit demand.

I am SURE (but please don't ask me for facts... just a feeling coming from my own initially boys-only grammar school upbringing that changed when Labour brought in comprehensive education) that men, once they become accustomed to the natural presence of women in the same learning environment, will enjoy it and wish to continue it.

The Bishop Basher

darter wrote: »

Logically impossible to prove the lack of existence. One can only disprove theories, never prove them (Karl Popper).

That's nonsense. You are stating fact that these sheds don't work. So prove it quoting your sources. The men who attend these clubs disagree with you btw. Stop twisiting the argument to suit yourself. Nice try but back to you.....

darter wrote: »

You are beginning to think in terms of bringing facts to the issue rather than unsubstantiated feelings. But then you spoil it by saying but many of us have little doubt that they can contribute to the mental and physical wellbeing of men. Many used to have little doubt that the world was flat... Popular opinion is not a good indicator of the truth.

Please re read my post. I finished the sentence with "in my opinion" so your comments above are invalid in this regard.

darter wrote: »

Those who advocate that Men's Sheds are a solution to men's mental health issues are duty-bound to demonstrate that that is the case. Yes, we all think that that may be the case, but do Men's Sheds actually reach out to those in real need, who by the nature of their need are unwilling to engage in any form of companionship?

Is this a rhetorical question ? I believe you have all the facts so you tell us.

darter wrote: »

Men's Sheds would do better if they were to drop this whole fallacious argument about addressing men's mental health issues and stick to what they really are. A place for men who were raised in a different age with a different perspective on the role of women in society from the modern man.

Again from what i've heard in interviews, their members think differently. But hey, you're the self proclaimed expert here so what would they know ?

Ophiopogon

darter wrote: »

OK. Here's a thought. A People's Shed that has Men-Only days perhaps twice or three times a week? Could have a Women-Only day or two as well if the demand exists.

How about trying that out for a year and seeing where it goes. Those who run the People's Shed could iterate after a year - more or less Men-Only days to fit demand.

I am SURE (but please don't ask me for facts... just a feeling coming from my own initially boys-only grammar school upbringing that changed when Labour brought in comprehensive education) that men, once they become accustomed to the natural presence of women in the same learning environment, will enjoy it and wish to continue it.

Well yeah but how does it work when I'm only free on a Tue and some else a Wed and so on so on.

You end up with a People's shed that I can't go anyway because I'm only free on Men's day.

Why do you have to try and get men accustomed to the women and anyway...surely, as I keep saying, there are some who like their man's company and some who like unisex. Why not leave them at it.

This group have got themselves orgainsed to set something up, I think it would be great if anouther group organised a unisex skill sharing club, but it looks like it has not happened yet. Even so I don't feel the need to hijac the men's shed.

dudmis

darter wrote: »

OK. Here's a thought. A People's Shed that has Men-Only days perhaps twice or three times a week? Could have a Women-Only day or two as well if the demand exists.

I think that a great idea - I'm not sure how it would work or fit in with Barry's concept (seeing as he is the one putting his energies into this) but I'm sure he would be open to discussing. Maybe some alternative solution could be found.

But all I can say is fair play to you for putting your money where your mouth is and organising this - its always easier to sit on the sidelines and moan.

I, for one, will support your 'People's Shed' fully.

Annasopra

Men's Sheds would do better if they were to drop this whole fallacious argument about addressing men's mental health issues and stick to what they really are. A place for men who were raised in a different age with a different perspective on the role of women in society from the modern man.

Absolute nonsense

That is suggesting that people who want mens sheds do not support gender equality and that somehow older men will impart their anti-egalitarian views onto younger men.

The Bishop Basher

darter wrote: »

OK. Here's a thought. A People's Shed that has Men-Only days perhaps twice or three times a week? Could have a Women-Only day or two as well if the demand exists.

How about trying that out for a year and seeing where it goes. Those who run the People's Shed could iterate after a year - more or less Men-Only days to fit demand.

I am SURE (but please don't ask me for facts... just a feeling coming from my own initially boys-only grammar school upbringing that changed when Labour brought in comprehensive education) that men, once they become accustomed to the natural presence of women in the same learning environment, will enjoy it and wish to continue it.

I see you're making assumptions without facts again...mmmmm

Do as I say not as I do.

This thread is a farce.

Good luck to the OP. He'll need it.

The Bishop Basher

Darter,

Go read about the mens sheds. They are what they are !!

If you disagree with the concept you are free to set something different up yourself.

The OP suggested a mens shed, plain and simple.


http://www.menssheds.ie/

http://www.mensheds.org.au/

Noffles

Just thought i would pop back to this thread and see what was happening.. oh dear... what a ****ing load of bollox it turned into.. Sheds in my opinion are a good idea... and thus if people have an opinion that is all it should be... and if a majority of like minded "opinions" happen to get together and they are all men and call it a shed... good luck to them.

In my opinion, someone on this thread either doesn't like men or doesn't like men meeting up together for social reasons.

darter

OK, I'm crying Uncle on this one. It's a bit lonely having a different opinion from the convinced masses, and having my character assassinated for holding that opinion. It was fun whilst it lasted, and hopefully one or two of you took time to reflect a little on points raised. No? Not even that? Ah well, can't win 'em all.

Good luck to you all. Let's see if in 5 years time the rates of male suicide is down in Ireland. Believe it or not, I sincerely hope you are all right and I am all wrong and that this is indeed a solution!

(P.S. Are they legal? Do they not infringe on European gender equality legislation? Some male-only golf courses were taken to court and lost. Any legal experts out there?)

Dmckeown

I'm heading to the pub with a few of the lads Darter.
Guess I should open the invite to you for fear of being labelled a misogynist....?

hollypink

darter wrote: »

(P.S. Are they legal? Do they not infringe on European gender equality legislation? Some male-only golf courses were taken to court and lost. Any legal experts out there?)

I posted this in a different forum today but actually in the case of Portmarnock Golf club, the club won:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1103/portmarnock.html

The Supreme Court has ruled that Portmarnock Golf Club can continue to exclude women as full members because it is exempted under equal status legislation.

The court, by a majority of three to two, upheld a decision by the High Court four years ago and dismissed an appeal by the Equality Authority.

This ruling centred on how a section of the Equal Status Act should be interpreted.

Morag

Glad to see this project has been kicked on in this country.
It's sorely needed.

LEIN

Ok, I think this is done now.











Move along people noting to see here.