Mutual driving disqualification in uk and Ireland

JackCharlton

Hi
I was in newry yesterday and on the motorway stupidly put the foot down and was caught doing 110 mph in
A 70 mph zone , I just expected a talking to but I was arrested and brought to armagh police station where I was charged with dangerous driving and have a court appearance in feb in newry over it
The cop said it may be reduced to careless driving ,

I know in jan 2010 a mutual driving disqualification policy was brought in but I rang a few Irish cops that I know Abd they said it was meant to be brought in but never implemented and or enforced is this true?

Pls stay on topic in fully aware of what I did wrong .

JackCharlton

JackCharlton wrote: »

I know in jan 2010 a mutual driving disqualification policy was brought in .

Jan 2010 sorry

CZ 453

I don't think it was brought in. I think they give you an on the spot fine in the north usually

JackCharlton

shezer wrote: »

I don't think it was brought. My girlfriend has a British licence and she cant get Irish points but can get fined because her car is registered in the south. I think they give you an on the spot fine in the north usually

Points are different I'm talking about a worse case scenario possible ban

Hooch

No there is no dual ban.

However if you fail t turn up in NI then a warrant WILL be issued for you and your next stop will result in an arrest and immediate course appearance.

See a solicitor straight away, particularly one who can advise on border issues.

JackCharlton

Are you sure. ?
What about this
http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=169

Hooch

JackCharlton wrote: »

Are you sure. ?
What about this
http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=169

First i've ever seen of it. I have seen no EU legislation in relation to it nor have I seen any internal documentation about it.

I have been wrong before.....once

JackCharlton

Ok how would I find out
Even the cops here are not sure?

Hooch

JackCharlton wrote: »

Ok how would I find out
Even the cops here are not sure?

There is a number at the bottom of that link....ring it and ask straight out if it has been enacted.

I have NEVER heard of it being enacted so would be confident it hasnt been.

JackCharlton

Ok thanks hooch ,

leeroybrown

I can't comment on the cross-border driving ban agreement other than to say that my understanding was that they've supposed to be in force for almost two years (even if I've never heard/read about them being used). What I will say is that being stopped for speeding in excess of 100mph in a UK jurisdiction is viewed very seriously so you should get some proper legal advice in the North. At 57% above the speed limit you're definitely at risk of a ban.

JackCharlton

leeroybrown wrote: »

I can't comment on the cross-border driving ban agreement other than to say that my understanding was that they've supposed to be in force for almost two years (even if I've never heard/read about them being used). What I will say is that being stopped for speeding in excess of 100mph in a UK jurisdiction is viewed very seriously so you should get some proper legal advice in the North. At 57% above the speed limit you're definitely at risk of a ban.

Yes I completely understand that
Will I get banned in the south too ?
I have an Irish license

leeroybrown

JackCharlton wrote: »

Will I get banned in the south too ?
I have an Irish license

Unfortunately, like every respondent thus far, I can't answer that question for you.

JackCharlton

Ok thank you for your advice anyway

lynchie

JackCharlton wrote: »

Are you sure. ?
What about this
http://www.transport.ie/pressRelease.aspx?Id=169

SI 11/2010 was the commencement order for Section 9 of the RTA 2002 which covered mutual recognition of disqualifications in EU member states. In the UK its covered under the CICA act afaik, so anybody disqualified by a UK courts will have their disqualification notified to the Irish court after which the disqualification will be enforced here too.

Victor

shezer wrote: »

I don't think it was brought in. My girlfriend has a British licence and she cant get Irish points but can get fined because her car is registered in the south. I think they give you an on the spot fine in the north usually

Wrong. Under the Road Traffic Act 2010 the points are being applied to a shadow licence and if 12 points are built up in 3 years, she's banned.

JackCharlton

What about a ban?

User Friendly

Victor wrote: »

Wrong. Under the Road Traffic Act 2010 the points are being applied to a shadow licence and if 12 points are built up in 3 years, she's banned.

to clarify.... she has a UK licence,so she cant get points. but if she were to get an irish licence then the points would automatically apply.... is that what your saying?

User Friendly

JackCharlton wrote: »

What about a ban?

nobody seems to know jack.... rather than pay a solicitor,contact your local citizens advice,they have a solicitor who will advise you for free

Send a few email and/or ring a few places like DoJ, solicitors etc would probably be your best bet.

MagicSean

I think it has actually been enacted but I've yet to see it actually used. But as it isn't actually a matter for the Gardaí then that's not altogether unusual. I would think the driver would have to hand over his licence in NI following his conviction and so he would have no licence to produce in the Republic if stopped.

Op have you considered one of these for your jollies

http://www.play.com/Games/Xbox360/-/3838/3105/-/18029484/Forza-Motorsport-4/Product.html

slandy

JackCharlton wrote: »

Hi
I was in newry yesterday and on the motorway stupidly put the foot down and was caught doing 110 mph in
A 70 mph zone , I just expected a talking to but I was arrested and brought to armagh police station where I was charged with dangerous driving and have a court appearance in feb in newry over it
The cop said it may be reduced to careless driving ,

I know in jan 2010 a mutual driving disqualification policy was brought in but I rang a few Irish cops that I know Abd they said it was meant to be brought in but never implemented and or enforced is this true?

Pls stay on topic in fully aware of what I did wrong .

why werent you brought to Newry police station? why armagh?

JackCharlton

Dunno why they brought me to armagh
they were plainclothes cops doing a red diesel stop when i drove by

Victor

Mallory Ripe Tear wrote: »

Not giving advice but just saying, there is not much the RUC can do once you leave the north is there?

You do realise that the RUC disappeared more than 10 years ago.

What they tend to do is set a high police bail, which encourages people to attend their court appearance.

JackCharlton

they actually wanted a grand to let me out ..or they were keeping me in the station till monday for court
told them all i could get was 500 and they were ok with that

totally OTT if u ask me ... for speeding ???
hate to see what would happen if you were drunk, no insurance, etc ..

Delancey

The reason that motorists from the Republic get arrrested for what they may consider ' minor ' Road Traffic offences in the North is that under Section 25 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act the PSNI have a power of arrest when service of a summons is not considered ' practicable '.
In the case of someone resident in the Republic its pretty obvious that a summons from the North cannot be served on them hence the practice of arrest with release contingent on bail substantially higher than a NI resident would be required to pay.

Worth remembering that bail is not automatic and someone may be unlucky to find themselves held in custody till the next sitting of the Magistrates Court - pray you don't get locked up on a long weekend

schemingbohemia

JackCharlton wrote: »

they actually wanted a grand to let me out ..or they were keeping me in the station till monday for court
told them all i could get was 500 and they were ok with that

totally OTT if u ask me ... for speeding ???
hate to see what would happen if you were drunk, no insurance, etc ..

You obviously haven't learned your lesson. You were doing 110mph in a 70mph zone - you would likely have been charged with dangerous driving down here.

Victor

schemingbohemia wrote: »

You obviously haven't learned your lesson. You were doing 110mph in a 70mph zone - you would likely have been charged with dangerous driving down here.

And he thought he was on a motorway when he wasn't. No motorway from Ballymascanlan to Sprucefield.

User Friendly

Mallory Ripe Tear wrote: »

So out of curiosity what happens him if he does not show up in court.

As a wild guess,i would imagine the court would proceed with his case in his absence.

JackCharlton

schemingbohemia wrote: »

You obviously haven't learned your lesson. You were doing 110mph in a 70mph zone - you would likely have been charged with dangerous driving down here.

you cannot get charged with dangerous driving from speeding alone

there was nobody else on the road

my car has ceramic brakes
it can stop in half the distance the highway code states
anyway BACK ON TOPIC

JackCharlton

Victor wrote: »

And he thought he was on a motorway when he wasn't. No motorway from Ballymascanlan to Sprucefield.

i didnt say where i was
the speed limit was 70mph
this was confirmed by the cops


anyway BACK ON TOPIC

Ms Minnie Mouse

Motorway/dual carriageway - whatever - the speed limit was 70mph and you were doing 40mph above that.

Clearly there were people on the road - the police.

Road rules are road rules for a reason - they aren't applied on a subjective basis (she's driving a 20 year old Fiesta - her maximum limit is 30mph but HE'S driving a 2012 Porsche - he can do 120mph).

ANYWAY - back on topic ;-)

Ms Minnie Mouse

It's a bit like the age old philosophical question - does a tree falling in the woods make a noise if there's no-one there to hear it? Or rather - does a speed limit exist if there's no-one there to observe it?

vetstu

JackCharlton wrote: »

you cannot get charged with dangerous driving from speeding alone

there was nobody else on the road

my car has ceramic brakes
it can stop in half the distance the highway code states
anyway BACK ON TOPIC

Nobody else apart from the cops that pulled you.

Victor

JackCharlton wrote: »

i didnt say where i was

Its just this bit that suggests it happened at Newry.

JackCharlton wrote: »

I was in newry yesterday and on the motorway stupidly put the foot down and was caught doing 110 mph in A 70 mph zone , I just expected a talking to but I was arrested and brought to armagh police station

Our man in Havana

Mallory Ripe Tear wrote: »

So out of curiosity what happens him if he does not show up in court.

Loss of bail money and conviction in absentia.

So long as he never went up north again there would be nowt else they could do.

ResearchWill

JackCharlton wrote: »

you cannot get charged with dangerous driving from speeding alone

there was nobody else on the road

my car has ceramic brakes
it can stop in half the distance the highway code states
anyway BACK ON TOPIC

While the OP is talking about the UK, you can in this and I assume that jurisdiction be charged with dangerous driving in those conditions.

The Irish section is
Dangerous driving.

53.—(1) A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place at a speed or in a manner which, having regard to all the circumstances of the case (including the nature, condition and use of the place and the amount of traffic which then actually is or might reasonably be expected then to be therein) is dangerous to the public.

It says clearly at a speed OR in a manner.

ResearchWill

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Loss of bail money and conviction in absentia.

So long as he never went up north again there would be nowt else they could do.

But is that not what this thread is about, under the mutal recognition will he be banned down here as well, if he gets a ban up there.

Our man in Havana

That depends on whether the OP is aware of the ban (UK courts won't ban someone in absentia) and the NI courts actually communicating the info to the Dept of Transport.

Marcusm

Dangerous driving in NI is defined in more general terms - see below for the definition. In the parts of the UK for which the CPS is the prosecutorial authority, the guidance for prosecutions indicates that a prosecution for dangerous driving in the context of speding should be undertaken where the "speed ... is highly inappropriate for the prevailing road or traffic conditions".

I imagine that significant weight would be given to the evidence of the PSNI and also issues such as whether it was a motorway (no access) or dual carriageway (access points along the road).

The tariff for this can involve prison for up to 2 years but also a mandatory 12 months suspended licence and a retest at an advanced level.

A friend got caught doing 106mph in Cornwall and he got 3 months licence suspension and a big fine.

11.—(1) For the purposes of Articles 9 and 10 a person is to be regarded as driving dangerously if (and, subject to paragraph (2), only if)—

(a)the way he drives falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver; and

(b)it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous.

(2) A person is also to be regarded as driving dangerously for the purposes of Articles 9 and 10 if it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving the vehicle in its current state would be dangerous.

(3) In paragraphs (1) and (2) “dangerous” refers to danger either of injury to any person or of serious damage to property; and in determining for the purposes of those paragraphs what would be expected of, or obvious to, a competent and careful driver in a particular case, regard shall be had not only to the circumstances of which he could be expected to be aware but also to any circumstances shown to have been within the knowledge of the accused.

(4) In determining for the purposes of paragraph (2) the state of a vehicle, regard may be had to anything attached to or carried on or in it and to the manner in which it is attached or carried.

JackCharlton

Does anybody actually know if a mutual ban is enforced ?

Marcusm

Our man in Havana wrote: »

That depends on whether the OP is aware of the ban (UK courts won't ban someone in absentia) and the NI courts actually communicating the info to the Dept of Transport.

Interestingly, if the prosecution is for dangerous driving and the defendant fails to appear, a warrant could be issued for arrest which as the maximum POTENTIAL sentence is more than 12 months then a European Arrest Warrant could be issued. I wonder if the NI prosecuting authorities would use this route to enforce driving laws within their juridiction by non residents.

MagicSean

JackCharlton wrote: »

Does anybody actually know if a mutual ban is enforced ?

Well if you are convicted I would presume you have to hand over your licence. So you would have no actual licence to drive in Ireland. You would also be prohibited from applying for a new licence in either country.

User Friendly

MagicSean wrote: »

Well if you are convicted I would presume you have to hand over your licence. So you would have no actual licence to drive in Ireland. You would also be prohibited from applying for a new licence in either country.

and if he doesnt bring his licence to court?

MagicSean

User Friendly wrote: »

and if he doesnt bring his licence to court?

I don't know the procedure up there. I presume he would be in breach of a court order. i suppose his licence would not be valid to drive on but it would be up to the authorities up there to notify the dept of transport or the Gardaí.

Our man in Havana

They would adjourn until the licence is produced in court.

User Friendly

Our man in Havana wrote: »

They would adjourn until the licence is produced in court.

not bringing a licence to court is a very common tool used by defendants, saying the court would be adjourned is only guesswork.
If the defendant then said he lost the licence,do you think the case would be adjourned indefinitely or until the licence has been recovered? i dont think this would work.

Our man in Havana

In the UK they will adjourn. In the south it would not work.

JackCharlton

The solicitor told me NOT to bring my license
His exact words were they have no jurisdiction over an Irish license ?

MagicSean

JackCharlton wrote: »

The solicitor told me NOT to bring my license
His exact words were they have no jurisdiction over an Irish license ?

Did he give you that in writing?

User Friendly

JackCharlton wrote: »

The solicitor told me NOT to bring my license
His exact words were they have no jurisdiction over an Irish license ?

As ive already said jack......... this is common for defendants to do this. the idea that a court would be adjourned is ridiculous.