Why must we claim non-Irish people for Ireland?

mikemac1

Why does England claim our top cricketers? :mad:

nice_very

whoever it was that mentioned ian paisley, I am 35 and I remember him saying that he is Irish, as born on the Island...

IMO born on the Island = Irish, if afterwards want to become a traitor thats their own business, go live in the other country.

gsxr1

grenache wrote: »

really? Thanks for the insight, i had not noticed. :rolleyes:

That is not the point at issue here. How do you know that any of the more famous personalities from the north are happy at being described as Irish? They are not ours to claim.

Why would they have an issue? If they where born in ULSTER.

Look at the link, you may notice that area is in Ireland . Eddie Irvine as far as I remember drove his car under a British flag but still considered himself Irish(not Scottish, English) . When he won a podium the British National anthem was played(apart from one time)

If they did not like the Irish claims then im sure they would reject them.

Having a country claim you as their own would be very flattering to most I would think.

fullstop

grenache wrote: »

fullstop wrote: »

Sigh, I wish you would at least have got your facts straight before coming on spouting ****e. If you did you'd know that golf is an all-Ireland sport and the Clarke and especially McIlroy benefitted hugely from GUI (Golfing Union of IRELAND) funding and coaching programmed and were sent all around the world representing, you've guessed it, IRELAND at the union's expense. So STFU

If i had got my facts straight then you wouldn't have been able to tell me to STFU, and i know that would have disappointed you greatly.
They're both from the North, both representing Northern Ireland. Have you noticed the "NI" after their names....

Don't suppose you happened to catch McIlroy and McDowell representing Ireland under the tricolour at the World Cup in November, no?

Little link and all to help you

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/golf/15902385.stm

K-9

Irish and British, all the same to me.

They all look and speak the same.

K-9

Oh yeah, Spike Millligan is a legend.

Gay Byrne: "How long were you in North Africa?"

Milligan: (with an incredulous look) 6'5".

Fecking WWII traitor.

starbelgrade

Sindri wrote: »

Wasn't his father Irish?

I think so.

Tayla

bwatson wrote: »

Apart from enlightening everyone to the fact that Eddie Irvine decided to identify as Irish, what is your point? That every person to have been born in Northern Ireland shares the same mindset as Eddie Irvine? Or that his opinions on what constitutes being British blows everyone else's out of the water because he can drive cars better than most?

I think his point was obvious when you read it in relation to what this thread is actually about, the OP thinks that we are claiming people that we shouldn't claim.

If someone identifies themselves as Irish then they should be considered Irish.

If a highly successful Catholic person from Northern Ireland with an Irish name and Irish family decided to say that he was British and not Irish then fair enough, I wouldn't want us to claim them as our own.

starbelgrade

Italia 90 would never have been as good as it was if we hadn't had claimed some British as ours, so I'm all for it.

Cavehill Red

grenache wrote: »

Why do we do it? RTE in particular are notorious for it. The seem to love pinching people from the North. The likes of Rory McIlroy, Darren Clarke or Eddie Irvine did not learn their trade in our country. They were not taught the basic skills of their sport here, nor did they receive any funding from the Irish government or Sports Council.

All of the above are Irish.

grenache wrote: »

Now, i know some of you will try and play the "but they are from the island of Ireland" card. But to me that matters not a jot. So is Ian Paisley.

The same Ian Paisley who has said on a number of occasions that he is proud to be an Ulsterman and an Irishman. It matters not a jot to me what matters to you. I'm born in Ireland, have an Irish passport and like 1.5 million others under British occupation/rule in the North of IRELAND, I'm Irish. Suck it up.

grenache wrote: »

They are United Kingdom as far as i'm concerned and should be treated as so.

Again. what concerns you is neither here nor there. The reality is otherwise.

grenache wrote: »

If we're going to try to claim the North's sports stars, why don't RTE start to give us regular updates on the fortunes of the North's soccer team.

They do, but I agree, it would be nice if they did a bit more of it.

grenache wrote: »

It's a total farce that we would try to claim people that were neither born or schooled here. Ditto British people who have Irish links e.g. Daniel Day Lewis. Lost count of how many times i've seen him described as an "Irishman". He might live in Wicklow and have an Irish passport, but he's not Irish. He is British.

He too has the passport and citizenship and is Irish. Who are you to deny his or my Irishness? Nobody is who.

grenache wrote: »

This nonsense and "plastic paddy syndrome" has to stop.

Grow up.

Johnny Foreigner

grenache wrote: »

Why do we do it? RTE in particular are notorious for it. The seem to love pinching people from the North. The likes of Rory McIlroy, Darren Clarke or Eddie Irvine did not learn their trade in our country. They were not taught the basic skills of their sport here, nor did they receive any funding from the Irish government or Sports Council.

Now, i know some of you will try and play the "but they are from the island of Ireland" card. But to me that matters not a jot. So is Ian Paisley. They are United Kingdom as far as i'm concerned and should be treated as so. If we're going to try to claim the North's sports stars, why don't RTE start to give us regular updates on the fortunes of the North's soccer team.

It's a total farce that we would try to claim people that were neither born or schooled here. Ditto British people who have Irish links e.g. Daniel Day Lewis. Lost count of how many times i've seen him described as an "Irishman". He might live in Wicklow and have an Irish passport, but he's not Irish. He is British.

This nonsense and "plastic paddy syndrome" has to stop.

I am London-Irish, born in London to Irish parents.
I suppose you would say that me saying I am Irish is nonsense, and plastic paddy syndrome?
I think that if someone born in Northern Ireland wants to call themselves Irish, then that is their prerogative. If they want to call themselves British then that is their prerogative. I don't have a problem with either. Its a mute point.
I suppose you think that the players in the Republic of Ireland team in Italia '90 were plastic paddies too?
I suppose you think Shane McGowan of the Pogues is English as he was born in Kent?
You are mistaken.

“ I do not think this country will afford sufficient allurements to the citizens of other States ... The children of Irish parents born abroad are sometimes more Irish than the Irish themselves, and they would come with added experience and knowledge to our country.... ”
—Sen. Patrick Kenny, 1924

Níos Gaelaí ná na Gaeil iad féin

Cavehill Red

Confab wrote: »

Born in France, you're French. Born in Germany, you're German. ROI and NI are the same, separate countries sharing a border. Why is this so hard for people to understand?

Because it's not the case? Ask those of Turkish heritage born in Germany who can't get citizenship there. ROI and NI are two jurisdictions in one island nation.

Johnny Foreigner

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Because it's not the case? Ask those of Turkish heritage born in Germany who can't get citizenship there. ROI and NI are two jurisdictions in one island nation.

For once I agree with you.
Its the same on St Martin in the Caribbean sea.
St Martin is an Island with a total population of 70,000 and is divided; like Ireland into North and South. The north side is French Saint Martin, and the South is the Dutch side St Maarten. They have separate Governments, although the French side of the Island is part of the EU.
So just like the island of Ireland (where one can claim to be British or Irish in the North); on the island of St Martin one can claim to be French or Dutch. Two jurisdictions on one island.

Irish Guitarist

I don't understand why anyone feels proud of any sportsman (or woman) to be honest. "Someone from the same country as me kicked a ball into a net". Big deal.

SharpshooterTom

What defines somebody who is Irish anyway??

What about Paul McGrath? Born in England moved to Ireland as a baby.

Or my brother-in-law, who was born in England, and moved to Ireland at 14 and now has an Irish accent?

Or me who moved to Ireland (or Northern Ireland) at 14 and still have an English accent? I'm 25 now.

Look most people call me English and I don't mind (I do't feel particularly very English mind you) but understand people calling me that.

But my brother-in-law who moved over also at 14, is known as Irish because he has an Irish accent, other than he's the EXACT same as me (born there till 14 moved over here, exact same, just different accent).

So what defines Irish depends greatly from person to person IMO.

Seomra Mushie

I feel my earlier point has got lost, but Jonathan Rhys Meyers and Colin Farrell have both been referred to as British in the UK press. At least Daniel Day-Lewis has more links to Ireland than they do to the UK, what with his father being Irish and him having dual citizenship. So it's not like Ireland is the only place this goes on.

Father Damo

starbelgrade wrote: »

Spike Milligan tried to get British citizenship & felt he was entitled to it as he fought in the British Army, shit.

If he served in the British Army surely he already had sworn an oath of loyalty to the monarchy?

mikemac1

I don't know
But serving in the army does not get you citizenship

The Gurka's from Nepal have a long history of being brave soliders but they were getting miserable pensions, a fraction of what British soldiers got.
They had to fight for better pensions and the right to live in the UK

And they won but the bureaucrats had the last laugh. There are big cutbacks going on and since the Gurkas became more expensive they have and will slash their numbers.

How's that for loyalty after risking your life and spend decades serving

DEFTLEFTHAND

With the likes of Mcllroy though its clear to see that he regards himself as a U.K citizen. He has declared for G.B in the Olympics and on one notable occasion refused an Irish tricolour that was handed to him after his US Open victory.

There's nothing wrong with that at all and it hasn't stopped him from representing the island on team events in the past.

ronjo

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

With the likes of Mcllroy though its clear to see that he regards himself as a U.K citizen. He has declared for G.B in the Olympics and on one notable occasion refused an Irish tricolour that was handed to him after his US Open victory.

There's nothing wrong with that at all and it hasn't stopped him from representing the island on team events in the past.

McIlroy regards himself as Northern Irish.... nothing more, nothing less.
He has said this on many occasions.

The Internet Explorer

Words and opinions. More words. Some more opinion. A couple more words and with one or two more. A mixture of letters to create words. A mixture of words to create sentences. Sentences forming opinions.

KeithAFC

bwatson wrote: »

Please be aware that not everybody is looking at it through your eyes, and that in general political factors are far more influencial than geographic factors in determining who and what somebody is. Especially on this island. I'm from Northern Ireland, thanks.

Anyway, its part insecurity and part desperation. You are a small country with a small population. You feel a need to cling on to any worldwide recognition or admiration that you can get.

It happens a lot in the North too. There are some there who will do the same thing and make sure everyone knows McIlroy is from Northern Ireland at every opportunity. It just comes from being rather small and insignificant on the world stage and knowing that this is the case.

In my experiences it happens in England and Scotland too, but to a lesser extent. An example - far more of the English I know are content to support Andy Murray's opponent because he is a Scot who (in jest or not) expressed his dislike of the English, than there are who will desperately try and promote him as Britain's number one.

I agree. The two in question are Ulster Scots.

billybudd

Why would they not be Irish, the official name of this Island is Ireland, not the republic of of Ireland just Ireland.

KeithAFC

The same Ian Paisley who has said on a number of occasions that he is proud to be an Ulsterman and an Irishman. It matters not a jot to me what matters to you. I'm born in Ireland, have an Irish passport and like 1.5 million others under British occupation/rule in the North of IRELAND, I'm Irish. Suck it up.

Occupation. Deary me. You are Irish. A lot of people in Ulster aren't. Hince this thread. It isn't as black and white as some people say.

billybudd

KeithAFC wrote: »

Occupation. Deary me. You are Irish. A lot of people in Ulster aren't. Hince this thread. It isn't as black and white as some people say.

Ulster is Irish regardless of political persuassion.

ResearchWill

starbelgrade wrote: »

Spike Milligan tried to get British citizenship & felt he was entitled to it as he fought in the British Army, but he was refused on the grounds that he wouldn't swear allegiance to the British monarch.

He wrote to Prince Charles about it, who replied that swearing an oath to the Queen wasn't all that bad. Milligan replied, "that's easy for you to say - she's your mother".

So he came to Ireland & asked if he could have a passport. The guy at the passport office recognised him & he was granted citizenship on the grounds that there 'weren't enough Irish in the world'.

The moral of the story is - there's little point in splitting hairs over this shit. There's very few people who are 100% from one place or the other, and in the end, does it really matter - especially when you can claim the likes of Spike Milligan as 'one of our own'?

It is said that it was the Irish Ambasador in London who said it to him. When his Irish passport was delivered it came with a bottle of Irish Whiskey.

KeithAFC

billybudd wrote: »

Ulster is Irish regardless of political persuassion.

We all have different opinions. I do agree with the OP about RTE trying to claim Rory or Darren as one of their own which just isn't the case.

gustavo

KeithAFC wrote: »

We all have different opinions. I do agree with the OP about RTE trying to claim Rory or Darren as one of their own which just isn't the case.

If you don't consider yourself Irish why would you have 1 of the four provinces of Ireland as your location ?

billybudd

It is really up to that person or product to clairify what they are and are not.

If it is produced in the Island of Ireland then its reasonable to assume it is Irish, people poke fun at Irish Americans but its ok to be Irish scotch?

starbelgrade

gustavo wrote: »

If you don't consider yourself Irish why would you have 1 of the four provinces of Ireland as your location ?

Probably because he's located in Ulster, which also happens to be under British rule. I would have thought that was fairly obvious.

billybudd

starbelgrade wrote: »

Probably because he's located in Ulster, which also happens to be under British rule. I would have thought that was fairly obvious.

Err not all of it is.

Batsy

grenache wrote: »

Why do we do it? RTE in particular are notorious for it. The seem to love pinching people from the North. The likes of Rory McIlroy, Darren Clarke or Eddie Irvine did not learn their trade in our country. They were not taught the basic skills of their sport here, nor did they receive any funding from the Irish government or Sports Council.

Now, i know some of you will try and play the "but they are from the island of Ireland" card. But to me that matters not a jot. So is Ian Paisley. They are United Kingdom as far as i'm concerned and should be treated as so. If we're going to try to claim the North's sports stars, why don't RTE start to give us regular updates on the fortunes of the North's soccer team.

It's a total farce that we would try to claim people that were neither born or schooled here. Ditto British people who have Irish links e.g. Daniel Day Lewis. Lost count of how many times i've seen him described as an "Irishman". He might live in Wicklow and have an Irish passport, but he's not Irish. He is British.

This nonsense and "plastic paddy syndrome" has to stop.

If an English person started a thread on here saying the same things about England then the thread would be flooded by posts accusing him of being a member of the BNP.

billybudd

Batsy wrote: »

If an English person started a thread on here saying the same things about England then the thread would be flooded by posts accusing him of being a member of the BNP.

I agree, its actually quite an arrogant OP.

Liamario

Clearly there is still a stigma there for some people up in northern Ireland that they're afraid of being called Irish in case the republic of Ireland decides to reclaim the land.
If you're described as Irish, it's because you are from the island of Ireland. You don't get to decide whether you like it or not or if you'd like to be Chinese instead.
Of course, should you be born in Northern Ireland, you can also claim to be British- like a Scotsman, Englishman or Welshman.
Shove the politics up your hole and move on.

PS
I have an English friend who hates to be described as British and prefers to be known as an Englishman; which goes to show how irrelevant the politics of it can be.

KeithAFC

gustavo wrote: »

If you don't consider yourself Irish why would you have 1 of the four provinces of Ireland as your location ?

It is my location.

AngryBollix

myflipflops wrote: »

You can be British and Irish you know. The same as people are Welsh or Scottish or English and also British.

Is Darren Gibson a 'Plastic Paddy'? What about Andrew Trimble or Rory Best? By your statements above, all three of them are.

WTF are they?

AngryBollix

billybudd wrote: »

Ulster is Irish regardless of political persuassion.

What planet have you been living on?

a5y

Sindri wrote: »

Wasn't his father Irish?

Yes, he was. Captain Leo Alphonso Milligan, MSM, RA (1890–1969).

oranje

Actually Rory McIlroy is not Ulster Scots. Surprisingly enough he is from a Catholic background and has an uncle who played GAA for Armagh.

I find the OP's definition of Irishness laughable but I guess that it is the consequence of partition. The Boundary Commission leaves swathes of Irish people in the northern state and then people from the other side of the border can adjudge these people to be foreigners. As the Derryman Seamus Heaney once wrote when refusing publication in an antology of British poets:
'Be advised, my passport's green/ No glass of ours was ever raised/ To toast the Queen'

I agree that RTE and the Irish media in general do love claiming people but let's not insult those who are happy to call themselves Irish (and/or British). I have lived in Munster, Leinster and Ulster at different times and the only time I had genuine, spontaneous conversations in Irish in an urban setting was in Belfast.

When I was growing up there was a big deal made of John McEnroe being Irish-American. Now that is trawling, not enjoying the success of people who are just as Irish as you are.

oranje

Liamario wrote: »

If you're described as Irish, it's because you are from the island of Ireland. .

Actually place of birth and nationality are rarely linked. In most countries children get the nationalities of their parents. My three children have no automatic right to the Dutch nationality. One has an Irish passport and the other two have Polish passports. If they couldn't have their parental nationality they would be stateless. The Dutch law is the same as almost every EU country including Ireland.

Napper Hawkins

I'm Dublin born and raised to parents who are the same.

Which makes me Japanese because I say so.

HalloweenJack

Surely anyone who holds an Irish passport is Irish? Isn't that the whole point?

With regards to Northern Irish people being called 'Irish' by the Irish media, tbh, it bugs me too but it's not about me, it's about those people and anyone with half a brain knows that there's a lot of people up North who may not be legally 'Irish' but they have very strong feelings about their heritage and how they perceive themselves.

To dismiss any Nordie who identifies as Irish is to spit in the face of the same types of people who cared about their heritage and culture enough to fight for the Republic's independence. Those people were just unlucky to be living where they were at the time the Republic got independence.

Yeah, it's weird that people who aren't from the Republic of Ireland claim to be Irish but it's not about how you feel about it, it's about how they feel.

Dravokivich

I wonder if they have the same kind of discussions in Cyprus.

Cavehill Red

KeithAFC wrote: »

Occupation. Deary me. You are Irish. A lot of people in Ulster aren't. Hince this thread. It isn't as black and white as some people say.

You say rule, I say occupation. That's interpretation based on perspective.
Ulster is in Ireland, hence everyone from Ulster is Irish. Ulster is British ruled/occupied, hence everyone there is also entitled to be British too.
Yes, I am Irish. So are you. This does not affect your right to be British in the slightest. You may choose never to exercise your Irish nationality or engage with it at all. That's up to yourself. But you're Irish. Ask Big Ian if you don't believe me. To state otherwise is risible. Look at a map.

ejmaztec

I just wasted some valuable bandwidth reading through this thread.:(

oranje

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Surely anyone who holds an Irish passport is Irish? Isn't that the whole point?

Anybody born on the island of Ireland is entitled to an Irish passport and there are passports in the north to make this easier.

HalloweenJack wrote: »

Yeah, it's weird that people who aren't from the Republic of Ireland claim to be Irish but it's not about how you feel about it, it's about how they feel.

Are you for real? If your allegiance is to the twenty six county state rather than Ireland then surely you should be calling yourself Southern Irish and not Irish? The label Irish is for everybody from the island of Ireland or descended from it.

The Irish nation is not and never has been bounded by the geography of the twenty six county state. Do you really think that so much changes when you cross the border? Have you ever actually been to the north?

HalloweenJack

oranje wrote: »

Are you for real? If your allegiance is to the twenty six county state rather than Ireland then surely you should be calling yourself Southern Irish and not Irish? The label Irish is for everybody from the island of Ireland or descended from it.

The Irish nation is not and never has been bounded by the geography of the twenty six county state. Do you really think that so much changes when you cross the border? Have you ever actually been to the north?

You're completely misunderstanding what I'm saying. I don't know where you're getting your interpretation of my post from so I don't even know where to start.

oranje

KeithAFC wrote: »

Occupation. Deary me. You are Irish. A lot of people in Ulster aren't. Hince this thread. It isn't as black and white as some people say.

While it's true that there is a minority of Ulster people who would not call themselves Irish the vast majority do. I think that we can all agree that the vast majority of Donegal, Cavan and Monaghan people would call themselves Irish. In the north there are massive Irish nationalist majorities west of the Bann so we can safely assume that most people in Fermanagh, Tyrone, Armagh, South Down and Derry city could live with the Irish label.

In the rest of north-east Ulster you may well manage a majority of people who would term themselves British though some of those would be okay with being called Irish too. You would also have a minority of Irish people (perhaps a majority in Belfast city).

I would be curious as to why you are convinced that so many Ulster people are just British. I have never met a single unionist who isn't proud to be Irish too. That doesn't mean that they are happy with having Irish symbols pushed on them. It means that they are comfortable with supporting the Irish rugby, golf and cricket teams, they can enjoy Ash and U2, they can enjoy a night out in Belfast or Dublin.

As much as the extremes on either side might like to tell it differently the people of Ireland, north and south, are not so different either side of the border. There are great people of every persuasion just as there are idiots and extemists too.

As John Hume put it 'You can't eat a flag.'

oranje

HalloweenJack wrote: »

You're completely misunderstanding what I'm saying. I don't know where you're getting your interpretation of my post from so I don't even know where to start.

It's because you said this 'it's weird that people who aren't from the Republic of Ireland claim to be Irish '
Why is that weird? There is no link between either of the artificially constructed states and the label Irish. There is a clear link between the ancient island and the label Irish.

Maybe I misunderstood your point. If so, my apologies.

Wompa1

Conan O'Brien identifies as Irish but when he says it he means his ancestry. He doesn't believe he's a fully fledged Irish man. America have very diverse ethnic groups and so people relate to their ancestry as part of their identity. Most are proud Americans but also take pride in their lineage. I don't see the problem with it.