Is emigrating to Europe that big of a deal?

oranje

I am Irish. I have live in Holland for eleven years. With spells in Ireland in between, I also lived in Germany for a year and and studied and worked in England for five years.

I think that the OP has a point about the fact that moving to the UK is not such a big deal in some respects. Many, if not most, Irish people are very oriented towards British culture (television, newspapers, magazines, soccer etc.). In some respects it is like Canada and the US. A success hungry artist or soccer player will gravitate towards the larger, more lucrative market.

As I come from the west of Ireland originally and grew up in two-channel-land I didn't have this affinity for British culture (e.g. I have never seen any Monty Python), if anything my part of the country was obsessed with America :-) I was also into Irish language activities, like debating, when I was younger and I went to Irish college in the summers. I was proud of those aspects of my culture.

What I found in the UK was that I was never treated as a foreigner though I regarded myself as one. It used to amuse English people that I would say that they should regard Irish people in the same way as French or Dutch people, nationals of other European countries. Their attitude was that Irish people were like the Scots or Welsh or even the Geordies, the same but different. My attitude was that I was perfectly happy to be friends with everybody but that I was not the same. I might speak English but that didn't mean that I couldn't speak Irish. I might know about soccer but I also knew about Gaelic Football.
For me the UK is a good place to live if you are not carrying a lot of historical and cultural baggage. I was, so it wasn't.

My experience in Germany was very positive. The people were friendly and really went out of their way to be patient as I learned the language. I particularly loved going to festivals where people would be singing schlager and beautiful girls would be wearing traditional costumes. It was nice because you would feel like you were experiencing something really authentic. I also loved the massive warehouse discos where you would have theme Depeche Mode or Goth theme nights. I met so many interesting and interested people in Germany. I loved the food too. I think that it is a great place to live but you do need to conform and learn the language.

Holland is much different. You can live here for years without learning a word of Dutch. I know many foreigners who have been here for up to ten years and cannot speak more than a few words. There are thousands of foreigners who use English as their lingua franca and Dutch people like nothing better than showing off how well they speak English Basically you can arrange everything in life here through English.

At the same time there are many foreigners (and quite a few Irish people I have met) who do integrate. Dutch is a very easy language for English speakers so you can reach a good level within a year. If you speak Dutch you realize that there is a whole lot more going on around you and you can take part in everything the country has to offer. I don't thing that people here are particularly friendly though. You have to look after yourself in this country and develop a thick skin.

I have also spent a lot of time in Poland as my wife is Polish. I think that Poland is a great country for a person looking for adventure. The economy is growing nicely and culturally the Poles have a lot in common with Irish people. The language is difficult but you have the advantage there that relatively few people can speak English so you are basically forced into learning Polish. Poland is big enough to have its own culture with loads of indigenous television, musical artists, comedians etc. Although I live in Holland my wife speaks Polish to the kids and we have satellite tv so I am also a little bit Polish at this stage so maybe I am biased

All in all I think that there are major challenges living in any other country. The UK looks easy but it was bad for my mental health. Personally I think that NL is a relatively easy country to choose but many people find the lack of personal warmth a big issue. These days I find it difficult going back to my home town because all of a sudden I have people saluting me or wanting to make small talk.....

southsiderosie

later10 wrote: »

Yes, for some specific employment. Absolutely not for everything across the board.

Furthermore, I'm not sure why you keep reverting back to the UK issue. Why didn't you just reference moving to the UK in the thread title if that's all you're going to revert to when someone points out genuine difficulties in living and migrating to mainland Europe.

Again, if you speak the language, don't need a visa, and you can be home in half a day, why is it such a big deal to move across an international border for work? That was my "bottom line" post from the last page.

later12

southsiderosie wrote: »

Again, if you speak the language, don't need a visa, and you can be home in half a day, why is it such a big deal to move across an international border for work? That was my "bottom line" post from the last page.

Because it shouldn't be necessary for such a wide range of workers. Some people simply like living in Ireland, they like their communities, they like their ties to their families, the landscape, sports clubs, community life,whatever. For those with reasonably modest employment expectations - office admin or sales assistants - they shouldn't have to give that up to start all over and compromise the life they have built and the friendships they have made.

It is irrational of you to pretend that US employees are forced to uproot in the same way and to the same degree. If I want to live in Bismarck North Dakota, and I'm quite happy to work in a cafe or at the local library or in a drugstore, then I can quite reasonably expect to remain living there and keep my personal situation. That's something that many Irish people - particularly those with modest expectations - find so frustratingly different. I don't see what your problem is in accepting that.

Yes, they are getting on with it, they're moving on with their lives and starting afresh, but there's nothing wrong with being a bit pissed about that necessity.

AeoNGriM

Johnny Foreigner wrote: »

Ireland is part of the EU.
You cannot emigrate from the EU to the EU.
I am London-Irish, and lived in the UK for 32 years.
I can tell you from personal experience, that their are huge cultural differences between even the UK and Ireland.
For example, The Roman Catholic Church still has huge influence in Ireland.
In the UK its more cosmopolitan and multicultural.
It took me 6 months to slow down from a London paced lifestyle to an Irish one.
And these are just the differences between the UK and Ireland. The differences between Ireland and other EU member states are massive, not just culturally, but socially and economically.
Yes, culture and nationality really do matter that much.

Binge drinking and alcohol related violence, rioting and racial tension = cosmpopolitan and multicultural now does it?

Have to disagree with you there. On paper, you're right, but the reality is totally different. The UK is a sh!thole just like here, it's just a slightly different kind of sh!thole.

southsiderosie

pickarooney wrote: »

I think the biggest single difference between moving between US states and moving between countries in the EU is that in the latter you become a foreigner, with all that that entails. It can't necessarily be encapsulated in broad arithmetical strokes.

True. But I guess to speak to Oranje's point about mental health, being a foreigner can seem more bearable than feeling like a stranger in your own country. And I do find that there is a kind of logic and openness to living in large, modern cities - regardless of the country - that is less jarring and alienating that scaling down to, say, American exurbia.

billybudd

I get what you’re saying, having lived in the states for a good while it was no big deal to see a family with the husband and wife in their 50's for instance up sticks and move to another corner of the country because of better job etc., I think Irish people are home birds in general we like a bit of travel and the craic that comes with it but we also love our home and we feel hard done by if we are forced to move by lack of jobs etc., moving to the UK is I don’t think a big deal but any place in Europe that we need to learn the native lingo is a no no, maybe it’s because different languages are not taken that seriously in schools here at a secondary level and its made out to be very difficult to learn and become fluent in these different languages, a good example is that most cannot even speak our own native language, so we give up before we begin, most people from different countries that I know had a very good grasp of English from secondary school and it only took the 6 -12 months of living here to become fluent in it so I think its fear from our early years that contribute to our unwillingness to move to a country in Europe that forces us to learn a new language, if it wasn’t for the language then there would be a hell of a lot less people moving to the US, Australia, Uk or Canada, I really admire people who take the less easy option and move to Barcelona, Madrid or Paris, Berlin etc. even if it means they clean offices for the first year or other menial jobs, its why I admire people from Poland, Romania, etc. that come here and learn our language in difficult circumstances, in closing I don’t think its mainland Europe that is the problem and I have nothing to back this up but I would say the reason why the majority of people choose Sydney Etc. over Madrid Etc. is purely the fear of learning a new language.
As for me I am off to a Spanish Island when I have enough money saved to do what I wanna do.

The J Stands for Jay

southsiderosie wrote: »

Fair enough. But can't the same be said of someone moving from rural Donegal to Cork? Given the state of Irish transport, I'd reckon living in London and visiting family in Dublin is less complicated than living in Cork and visiting family in the wilds of Donegal!

I'm from Donegal, I've lived in New York and I've married a girl from Cork. The trip from New York to Donegal is a lot easier than from Cork (i could almost argue there's less of a language barrier...)

southsiderosie

later10 wrote: »

Because it shouldn't be necessary for such a wide range of workers. Some people simply like living in Ireland, they like their communities, they like their ties to their families, the landscape, sports clubs, community life,whatever. For those with reasonably modest employment expectations - office admin or sales assistants - they shouldn't have to give that up to start all over and compromise the life they have built and the friendships they have made.

The irony here is that many, many sales assistants, cafe workers and the like in Ireland have done exactly that: they left their friends and families in Poland and Latvia to take those modest jobs - even though many of them are highly qualified in other fields.

BraziliaNZ

What is the issue here Rosie? You think emigrating isn't a big deal? It isn't for you, but for some people it would be very hard leaving their family, friends, and familiar surroundings. That's pretty much all there is to it! Case closed!
I live in London now but don't feel like I'm abroad at all, just feels like a big Dublin with more black people.

later12

southsiderosie wrote: »

The irony here is that many, many sales assistants, cafe workers and the like in Ireland have done exactly that: they left their friends and families in Poland and Latvia to take those modest jobs - even though many of them are highly qualified in other fields.

I don't find that terribly ironic.

If these people had to emigrate and engage in this sort of unskilled work out of real economic necessity, and otherwise would rather have remained in their communities, then I think that's rather a shame.

Why do you consider this ironic?

The J Stands for Jay

southsiderosie wrote: »

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

You're not comparing like with like.
Is moving from Los Angeles to San Francisco a big deal? It's near the same distance as Dublin to London.
You don't have to change bank a/c's, currency, phone number, car registration, internet/tv providers etc.
You have the same government, tv shows, food, shops etc.
Moving from Dublin to London you have to change everything and don't have the same culture.

Galway to London is about 400 miles.

Cleveland to New York City is about 400 miles.

If you move from Cleveland to NYC here are the changes you will need to make:

If you had a local bank account (through a credit union, for example), you will need to switch. Your telephone area code will change, meaning you will probably switch mobile numbers (and carriers, since coverage varies significantly). You will have to re-register your car and get a new drivers license. You will switch health insurance providers. Local government services and local taxes will be completely different. Levels of diversity, local expenses, the real estate market, public transport systems, and the cost of living will be totally different. The education system will change, and not everything may be transferrable. If you are a licensed professional, you will need to get a new license, and may need to re-take professional exams. Local cultures and accents are totally different - there is no comparison there.

If you move from Galway to London here are the changes you will need to make:

If you had a local bank account (through a credit union, for example), you will need to switch. Your telephone country code will change, meaning you will switch mobile numbers. You will have to re-register your car and possibly pay import taxes. You will switch health insurance providers. Local government services and local taxes will be completely different. Levels of diversity, local expenses, the real estate market, public transport systems, and the cost of living will be totally different. The education system will change, and not everything may be transferrable. You will need to get a new social security number.

southsiderosie

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

What is the issue here Rosie? You think emigrating isn't a big deal? It isn't for you, but for some people it would be very hard leaving their family, friends, and familiar surroundings. That's pretty much all there is to it! Case closed!
I live in London now but don't feel like I'm abroad at all, just feels like a big Dublin with more black people.

I guess from the perspective of having grown up and moved around in such a big country, moving 'internationally' for work when you don't have visa or language issues doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Pretty much everyone I know from home has left family, friends and familiar surroundings for school and/or work, and been further away from home than people who live in Ireland who emigrate to other parts of the EU. Although there is not the psychological adjustment of being a 'foreigner', missing your friends and family is no less real, and getting home to them if you move outside of your home region (especially from the East to the West Coast, or vice-versa) is far more difficult logistically than getting from, say, Spain to Ireland (much less from the UK to Ireland). That's the issue, I guess.

BraziliaNZ

southsiderosie wrote: »

I guess from the perspective of having grown up and moved around in such a big country, moving 'internationally' for work when you don't have visa or language issues doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Pretty much everyone I know from home has left family, friends and familiar surroundings for school and/or work, and been further away from home than people who live in Ireland who emigrate to other parts of the EU. Although there is not the psychological adjustment of being a 'foreigner', missing your friends and family is no less real, and getting home to them if you move outside of your home region (especially from the East to the West Coast, or vice-versa) is far more difficult logistically than getting from, say, Spain to Ireland (much less from the UK to Ireland). That's the issue, I guess.

Yeah but living in Detroit and moving to Seattle or something is not as big a deal as moving to Madrid from Ireland IMO. The cultural differences are huge between Ireland and Spain. The UK is pretty much the same as home for me but I know that living in Germany or France even is a lot different and you may feel more isolated in those places.

later12

southsiderosie wrote: »

I guess from the perspective of having grown up and moved around in such a big country, moving 'internationally' for work when you don't have visa or language issues doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Pretty much everyone I know from home has left family, friends and familiar surroundings for school and/or work, and been further away from home than people who live in Ireland who emigrate to other parts of the EU. Although there is not the psychological adjustment of being a 'foreigner', missing your friends and family is no less real, and getting home to them if you move outside of your home region (especially from the East to the West Coast, or vice-versa) is far more difficult logistically than getting from, say, Spain to Ireland (much less from the UK to Ireland). That's the issue, I guess.

Sorry, what do you want here, a medal?

I didn't realize we were supposed to be comparing Irish emigrants to US interstate migrants in the misery-meter. On the one hand you opened this thread basically saying 'what's the big deal about emigrating to Europe', on the other hand you now explicitly refer to the personal ramifications that migration can have on individuals and their families in the above post.

Sorry but this is a predominantly Irish message board; don't be too alarmed if lots of us are talking about those effects of emigration in that context, or if it features heavily in the Irish media.

What a ridiculous bloody thread. I'm out.

southsiderosie

later10 wrote: »

Sorry, what do you want here, a medal?

I didn't realize we were supposed to be comparing Irish emigrants to US interstate migrants in the misery-meter. On the one hand you opened this thread basically saying 'what's the big deal about emigrating to Europe', on the other hand you now explicitly refer to the personal ramifications that migration can have on individuals and their families in the above post.

Sorry but this is a predominantly Irish message board; don't be too alarmed if lots of us are talking about those effects of emigration in that context, or if it features heavily in the Irish media.

What a ridiculous bloody thread. I'm out.

Not asking for a medal, just drawing a comparison. People leave friends and family behind for all kinds of reasons, and I don't see that it's the end of the world given that so many people do it, and within Europe it is relatively cheap and easy to get home and/or stay in contact with people.

I also understand that it is an Irish message board, but when the Irish media makes a fuss about young people having to move "far away from their families" for work (i.e. 200-300 miles away in London), it seems a bit maudlin considering that young people that live in larger countries within Europe and North America make geographically similar or bigger moves pretty routinely - Andalucians in Barcelona or Sicilians in Milan come to mind. Melbourne is far. Manchester, not so much.

CaliforniaDream

later10 wrote: »

Sorry, what do you want here, a medal?

I didn't realize we were supposed to be comparing Irish emigrants to US interstate migrants in the misery-meter. On the one hand you opened this thread basically saying 'what's the big deal about emigrating to Europe', on the other hand you now explicitly refer to the personal ramifications that migration can have on individuals and their families in the above post.

Sorry but this is a predominantly Irish message board; don't be too alarmed if lots of us are talking about those effects of emigration in that context, or if it features heavily in the Irish media.

What a ridiculous bloody thread. I'm out.

My dad always said to me, 'never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference'. I understand exactly what that phrase means now.

It seems somewhere along the OP's many travels, they left their comprehension and logic behind.

BraziliaNZ

southsiderosie wrote: »

Not asking for a medal, just drawing a comparison. People leave friends and family behind for all kinds of reasons, and I don't see that it's the end of the world given that so many people do it, and within Europe it is relatively cheap and easy to get home and/or stay in contact with people.

I also understand that it is an Irish message board, but when the Irish media makes a fuss about young people having to move "far away from their families" for work (i.e. 200-300 miles away in London), it seems a bit maudlin considering that young people that live in larger countries within Europe and North America make geographically similar or bigger moves pretty routinely - Andalucians in Barcelona or Sicilians in Milan come to mind. Melbourne is far. Manchester, not so much.

They are moving to different countries. Can't you see the difference? The media talk about young people moving to the UK because it's a shame they can't get work in their own county, i.e. the state has failed them. Who goes on about it being a big deal to move to the UK?

Arpa

Think we're being a bit harsh on the op here. I think she was just trying to point out the distance issue in moving within Europe compared to moving within U.S. Granted the physical distances may not be all that different OP but the comparisons drawn stop there.

Take this for example

New York to Florida - 1,853 km

Dublin to Krakow - 1,821 km

A difference of 31km, but jesus what a cultural, economic, linguistic, social divide!

If you feel that moving within the United States is more of a difficult cultural adjustment, then you really have to get out more. Language, cuisine, customs, to name but a few, remain pretty much standard across the United States.

Europe in contrast...well if I went to Krakow right now, I'd be hard pushed to find a packet of Tayto, some Buckfast wine and a garlic & cheese chips to share with some wagon on the walk home.

southsiderosie

Arpa wrote: »

Think we're being a bit harsh on the op here. I think she was just trying to point out the distance issue in moving within Europe compared to moving within U.S. Granted the physical distances may not be all that different OP but the comparisons drawn stop there.

Take this for example

New York to Florida - 1,853 km

Dublin to Krakow - 1,821 km

A difference of 31km, but jesus what a cultural, economic, linguistic, social divide!

If you feel that moving within the United States is more of a difficult cultural adjustment, then you really have to get out more. Language, cuisine, customs, to name but a few, remain pretty much standard across the United States.

Europe in contrast...well if I went to Krakow right now, I'd be hard pushed to find a packet of Tayto, some Buckfast wine and a garlic & cheese chips to share with some wagon on the walk home.

Well, yeah, but I also suppose it depends on what direction that distance goes!

For example, Boston to Dublin is about 3,000 miles. That's a pretty long haul. But both cities are similar in size, are cloudy, and are very bar-oriented. And there are obvious historical and cultural links.

Now if you go just half of that distance in the opposite direction, you will be in Louisville, Kentucky or Nashville, Tennessee - both of which are still in the U.S. but GOOD LORD are they different , not only in climate, but politically and culturally. There would be no clam chowder, or professional baseball. Bourbon would supplant beer (unless you were in a - shudder - dry county). Jesus would be everywhere.

In all seriousness, I guess I have been overstating my case, more to make an argument. But there does seem to be this collective - and understandable - hangover in Ireland from the bad old days of the 'American Wakes' that is shaping the public response to today's out-migration. And although it may be upsetting for parents to see their kids boarding a plane to London (or Madrid or wherever), I don't really think you can compare past waves of outmigration in the same way: despite the fact that cultural barriers (of which I have noted many on boards!) still exist, the world today is a much 'smaller' place, than it was, even in the 1980s, and Europe in particular has 'shrunk' at the same time that it has expanded significantly.

MadsL

Arpa wrote: »

Language, cuisine, customs, to name but a few, remain pretty much standard across the United States.

Nonsense, you clearly haven't travelled in the US much. You get a very different meal if you ask for Chilli in Texas than you do if you ask for Chile in New Mexico. There are massive cultural differences between say the Northeast and the Southwest.

Europe in contrast...well if I went to Krakow right now, I'd be hard pushed to find a packet of Tayto, some Buckfast wine and a garlic & cheese chips to share with some wagon on the walk home.

Excuse me but what absolute bollix. Have you been to Krakow? Krakow is full of expats, and you just need to stumble in the nearest Irish bar to get most of what you are craving...including the wagon.

Killer Wench

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

Yeah but living in Detroit and moving to Seattle or something is not as big a deal as moving to Madrid from Ireland IMO. The cultural differences are huge between Ireland and Spain. The UK is pretty much the same as home for me but I know that living in Germany or France even is a lot different and you may feel more isolated in those places.

There are also huge cultural differences between Detroit and Seattle. I don't think saying that one moves internationally automatically means that it is more traumatic than moving within one's home nation. If I am honest about, I found just as much difficulty moving from a mid-western state to a west coast state as I did moving from Seattle to Dublin.

I had to go register myself at the Gardai but I also had to go down to the WA DMV and get my tags registered. I didn't have to switch currency but going into a bank and having the teller look at my account information wasn't doable because I had opened my account in Illinois and I was now under the jurisdiction of a new state; and this was even within the same bank - BoA.

I actually went to TCD for grad school because it was cheaper for me to study in Ireland than it was to pay out of state tuition in WA.

somefeen

Moving to the UK can be a huge deal, London not so much since it has good transport links.
But if you end up on the Shetlands or some other remote part of scotland getting home is going to be hard.
Plus even though some Irish institutions are modeled after Brittish ones.
You need a new bank account, renewing your Irish passport becomes a pain in the ass. re-register your car, get a new driving licence. Adjust to brand name changes and dealing with a new currency day to day, took me weeks to figure out the coins. The culture change is huge. We can already be familiar with it from TV etc but theres lots of stuff that we dont see on TV that is hard to understand. Their Government works different to ours. Anti terrorism posters where big culture shock to me seemed very strange.
Anti Sectarian laws in Scotland, I was nearly arrested for singing one of the banned songs and I didnt even see how it could be offensive to anyone at all.
If you have an Irish name like O' something you are instantly conspicious, not in a bad way but people know you are different.
Trying to talk to people from Edinburgh or Newcastle you wont understand them and they wont understand you. Might as well be different language.
Trying to understand the Royal family
Everything is in imperial.
Pants become trousers

Spread

At 18 I went to England, learned a trade and moved around the country. A long time after I spent about 15 years in France and Germany, returned to Ireland for 15 years and now am in the US. Then I and fellow emigrants took everything in our stride. Language was not a barrier ..... you learned as you went. Cultural differences can be understood by looking at the history of the country - so, just as they are different from you, you are different from them. But you assimilate and are accepted. Do in Rome etc.
Some of the earlier posters seem to be still attached (virtual asttachment ) to the umbilical cord.
For God's sake ....... wise up and grow up. Such a fcuking bunch of whingers.

Spread

CaliforniaDream wrote: »

My point is you don't have to re-register everything within the US so stop bringing it up!

You reregister your car (six months gratis on average), your driving licence you give in and they give you one from your new state and you register to vote in the new state.

HavingCrack

I think the main difference between Ireland and the US is that many Irish people have an expectation to get a job in their home county (not even in other counties in some cases) rather than migrate. In the US moving from Colorado to Chicago for work is considered relatively normal by comparison. (In New York I had flatmates from Minnesota and Louisiana for example).

Now considering Irish history it was only during the Celtic Tiger that employment was widespread, a deviation from the norm for all intents and purposes so the expectation of employment in your locality (even in sales assistant/bar man/labourer type roles etc.) is a relatively new phenomenon.

Now as regards to the actual OP, I think Irish people generally have a greater connection to their locality/friends etc. than Americans do generally. Hence when the average Irish person moves to London/Amsterdam/Munich they are usually more put out than the average American. Americans seem to expect migration for work whereas Irish people did not expect emigration in the same way.

I hope I made some sense there.