Irish times today !!! - interview with Martin Fagan

mithril

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Yes he will be eligible to run. Not too sure if the IOC has a similar ban as BOC regards olympics but I guess he would be selected for IAAF events by AAI.




Think you have this one wrong. As far as I remeber Lombard was offered a place at world xc after winning interclubs in Belfast but said he had other more important things to concentrate on such as his job.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/7275480.stm
This is the article I was thinking of.
Legal advice was sought by the OCI as to options for excluding Lombard from the Olympic team if he met the A standard but it was a moot point for Beijing in his case since he did not qualify. Its conceivable Fagan could meet the A standard in 4 years time in which case the OCI would try and exclude him.

ecoli

mithril wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/7275480.stm
This is the article I was thinking of.
Legal advice was sought by the OCI as to options for excluding Lombard from the Olympic team if he met the A standard but it was a moot point for Beijing in his case since he did not qualify. Its conceivable Fagan could meet the A standard in 4 years time in which case the OCI would try and exclude him.

Given recent appeals by Chambers and Merritt i think legally they are not able to do this anymore

tunguska

rovers_runner wrote: »

Do you think it's ok for people who get caught out breaking the rules to blame depression and think it will excuse their actions?

How am I a disgrace for dismissing his explaination as an excuse?

Yeah I think "disgrace" is a bit over the top. From his own description of things it sounds like Martin needed to go see a sports psychologist not take epo. It was his choice, depression or no depression. No matter what way you feel you always have a choice as to what course of action you take. I think a sports psychologist should be made available to all top athletes, not just for the purposes of performance enhancement but also to teach them how to look after their mental health. Freddie flintoff's program on the bbc was very revealing the other night. Its such a one dimensional existance, all of an elite athletes esteem is derived from their sport. So when its going well all is good, but when its not going so well it can be devastating. It looks like this was the case with Fagan and he just didnt have the skills to cope, and thats where it went wrong. Hopefully Athletics Ireland will put some measures in place to address this issue and ensure that their athletes are given the skills to look after their mental well being.

NeedsTraining

I don't condone drug taking or drug usage, but you have to feel for Martin Fagan after reading the article in the Irish Times today.

He clearly wasn't in a good place when he made his faithful decision. Unless you have suffered from it, I doubt you know the ins and outs of what goes on inside ones head so I am not going to even try and go there.

Unfortunately I think this is just the tip of the iceberg with depression in athletics and across main stream sports. I just hope cases like this highlight that you are not on your own and that it encourages people to seek help.

I hope Martin recovers well and gets back to that happy place where he enjoys his running again very very soon.

shels4ever

Keith Kelly on newstalk at the moment.

Pherekydes

Very in-depth and interesting. Sounds as if it's just as hard on KK as MF, what with the puritans calling for life bans (probably for KK, too).

To me, it sounds as if it was never about cheating, and all about his depression. It was a cry for help. I think he wanted to get caught.

clear thinking

He seems happy not to have to bother his arse running anymore, thats the main thing.

Obviously he's sick of the grind but his mental state meant he felt he couldn't just quit so he went to an irrational extreme.

It's very like the irrational lead up to a lot of suicides but in this case he just killed off the running rather than himself. That is obviously a far happier outcome and hopefully it allows him get his head sorted.

And hopefully we see him back in a couple of years just running to enjoy it.

This "career over" stuff is also a joke, whotf wants a career living off a €12k grant and some crap appearance money now and again. [edit just to clarify - this isnt a call for lots of "many other clean athlete" repsonses, just pointing out its not the end of the world for a guy who clearly wasn't enjoying the life it gave him]

happygoose

http://media.newstalk.ie/listenback/22/monday/1/popup

39:30 in..

Oldtrier

I don't condone the use of drugs in Sport(or elsewhere), Martin's story is a bit sad if it was really through depression that he doped. One of the things I wonder at is how sympathetically the article has been written by Ian O'Riordan and what his (O'Riordan's) approach will be if Martin returns to running after his ban. O'Riordan could not let Cathal Lombard get back without whinging. O'Riordan and his Dad (Tom) could not even have their normal pint after Cathal returned to win the National Cross Country Champs (or so he claimed), they were so sickened to see a confirmed doper win!

gerard65

So he does not get caught. Go's to the olympics, wins gold and lives happily ever after. All wrapped up with a nice bow. Well, except the other guys in the race who were clean.

Oldtrier

gerard65 wrote: »

So he does not get caught. Go's to the olympics, wins gold and lives happily ever after. All wrapped up with a nice bow. Well, except the other guys in the race who were clean.

You miss the point, I am not saying it is right. If the athletics bodies decide 2 years and athletes serve the ban are they not to be allowed back? If that is the way then there should be a life ban. You can only serve the sentence you get. If someone serves a jail sentence are they never to be allowed take a normal part in society? My point was that O'Riordan seems to have a completly different attitude to Fagan and Lombard.

gerard65

Oldtrier wrote: »

You miss the point, I am not saying it is right. If the athletics bodies decide 2 years and athletes serve the ban are they not to be allowed back? If that is the way then there should be a life ban. You can only serve the sentence you get. If someone serves a jail sentence are they never to be allowed take a normal part in society? My point was that O'Riordan seems to have a completly different attitude to Fagan and Lombard.

I wasn't responding to your post, just making a general point.

SWL

Must say I am astonished that so many people are happy to see Martin back running after his ban is very disappointing.

He should be given a life ban, so too should other dopers who were in bad place like pro cyclist David Millar. I don’t recall the same level of sympathy for Michelle Smith when she was in the dock. Would people be as sympathy for the obviously mental ill Irishman who destroyed a Brazilian athlete from winning Gold at the 2004 Olympics, same effect aka mental illness slightly different outcomes.

Thankfully he will never see another Olympics games. While depression is a troubling disease I don’t believe that ordering EPO on the internet is a consequence of the illness. If he was aware enough to do that he should have contacted his support team or as one of Irelands most talented athletics he should have sought professional help from a sports or general practice physiologist and I believe this support would have been provided immediately.

myflipflops

SWL wrote: »

I don’t recall the same level of sympathy for Michelle Smith when she was in the dock..

I don't recall Michelle Smith ever admitting to doping, She still denies it to this day and still holds 4 Olympic gold medals.

In short, she never gave anyone any reason to have sympathy.

Oldtrier

SWL wrote: »

Must say I am astonished that so many people are happy to see Martin back running after his ban is very disappointing.

I wouldn't say I am happy to see dopers back. But if the ruling bodies give 2 year bans all the athletes can do is serve the ban. Are you saying there is never a comeback. People commit very serious and violent crimes and get a finite sentence. Is there never to be any forgiveness for doping?

SWL

myflipflops wrote: »

I don't recall Michelle Smith ever admitting to doping, She still denies it to this day and still holds 4 Olympic gold medals.

In short, she never gave anyone any reason to have sympathy.

Why becasue she didn't say she was depressed or becasue she didn't admit the acquisitions held against her. either way in my opinion same outcome sought to gain advantage unfairly.

SWL

Oldtrier wrote: »

SWL wrote: »

Must say I am astonished that so many people are happy to see Martin back running after his ban is very disappointing.

I wouldn't say I am happy to see dopers back. But if the ruling bodies give 2 year bans all the athletes can do is serve the ban. Are you saying there is never a comeback. People commit very serious and violent crimes and get a finite sentence. Is there never to be any forgiveness for doping?

Yes I believe life bans should be issued, 2 years is not a strong enough deterrent, look at cycling still suffering as a sport becasue of pr1cks.

myflipflops

SWL wrote: »

Why becasue she didn't say she was depressed or becasue she didn't admit the acquisitions held against her. either way in my opinion same outcome sought to gain advantage unfairly.

Of course, I have no idea how you can compare the 2 situations. Cathal Lombard is the one where you can compare the reactions. Firstly, there is a huge amount of weight put onto people who openly admit it when they get caught. They are few and far between.

Mainly though, people aren't thinking 'I have sympathy for Martin, he used EPO'. We are thinking 'I have sympathy, he was deeply depressed, he was at the lowest possible ebb'.

The ban he will receive is fully right. I don't think anyone, Fagan included, is arguing against the punishment.

SWL

myflipflops wrote: »

Of course, I have no idea how you can compare the 2 situations. Cathal Lombard is the one where you can compare the reactions. Firstly, there is a huge amount of weight put onto people who openly admit it when they get caught. They are few and far between.

Mainly though, people aren't thinking 'I have sympathy for Martin, he used EPO'. We are thinking 'I have sympathy, he was deeply depressed, he was at the lowest possible ebb'.

The ban he will receive is fully right. I don't think anyone, Fagan included, is arguing against the punishment.

Yes he may have been depressed and I hope he has the illness seen too and makes a full recovery which in my experience of the illness is 100% possible.

I am not trying to kick the guy when he is down, I saw him at the bupa run last year and he was like a rock star with shorts and runners. I don’t believe that depression can affect your judgement to that extent that you will sacrifice all your hard work and talent. I don’t know enough about his training team and the support he had, but it is up to him to access the recovery and help that I believe the Sports Council or AAI would have been only too happy to help him out.
He did get a prescription for anti-depressants who I believe show he knew where to go to get some help.
On a personal level, I do feel for the guy but not in the same way other poster do.

jeffontour

SWL wrote: »

I don’t believe that depression can affect your judgement to that extent that you will sacrifice all your hard work and talent.

Well then in my opinion you don't understand depression and should ease off on the statements of what actions it could or could not have lead him to.

It sometimes leads people to take their lives so believe me it can lead people to do things they would otherwise not.

Rocket Science

I think this story is heart breaking. Like the vast majority I am totally against drugs in sport and am awfully nervous of athletes taking counter products for a cough or cold etc in case they test positive in the process. However the pressures athletes are under when competing at high international levels is immense. They and others place themselves under this pressure. All too often people are only interested in PBs, qualifying times and records. Athletics is a lonely place and there is few places to hide if things are not going so well. I have seen athletes at first hand under enormous mental pressure when things are not going so well and athletes get desperate. I do not condone what Martin di but I think it needs to be viewed with compassion and understanding and in fairness to many of the posters on this they are showing that.

SWL

jeffontour wrote: »

Well then in my opinion you don't understand depression and should ease off on the statements of what actions it could or could not have lead him to.

It sometimes leads people to take their lives so believe me it can lead people to do things they would otherwise not.

I am fully aware of depression and its outcomes, there are different levels or stages of depression which is why I don't understand why someone can seek medical help and then claim that it’s the illness that lead them to take EPO rather than admitting it was taken to gain an unfair advantage which has nothing to do with depression as an illness.

Was Cathal Lombard, Michelle Smith, David Millar etc. were they depressed also?

Clearlier

I haven't seen anyone argue that Fagan shouldn't receive a ban. Nobody thinks that taking EPO was a good idea. The argument seems to be about whether or not we believe his story of depression and if we do whether it should make a difference. I do believe that he has been/is depressed but I'm not sure that we actually have enough evidence to make a decision.

I suspect that we can all agree that if it was a calculated decision then he deserves no sympathy.

If it did happen as a result of depression and was the cry for help that the stories so far suggest that it was then I think that some sympathy for the man although not his actions is warranted. You have to imagine that depression where the drugs aren't working and he can't find the motivation to run is a pretty debilitating condition.

Assuming my beliefs are accurate I really hope that Martin finds a way to move beyond this and construct a new life for himself. Given where it has lead him I do think that that life should probably be outside of the sport but that's not a decision I make. I'd prefer if the rules provided for a life ban but given that they don't I won't object if he makes a return. Same rules for everybody.

As an aside there are significant differences between Lombard and Fagan in that Lombard made huge breakthroughs whereas Fagan never really fulfilled his potential. There is an argument that he could have been taking EPO ever since he went to the US - I don't think that it's accurate or even likely but it's not possible for me to rule it out just take a view on the balance of probabilities.

OutsideLane

Very sad day for Martin Fagan as a person, but maybe that day was coming since he was effectively cut adrift a few years ago and then prevented from taking a job (even casual or P/T) in the country where he has spent all of his adult life. He tried to make it as a circuit athlete and came very close, but the debts and the injuries mounted. He was not covered for medical or physio once AAI cut him adrift; that is the saddest part - he had to race to put food in his mouth, but he should have been treated and rested - neither of which he could afford. He was in a downward spiral for the past 3 years.

As regards being monitored - all athletes are both in competition and out of. But there was no need for any closer monitoring as people in Ireland were made aware of the illicit stuff on his personal credit card as soon as he placed the order - he knew he'd be caught. It probably was a better cry than a razor or overdosing.

It still doesn't excuse taking the stuff and he'll be suspended as per WADA guidelines. Whether he ever returns to competition again is another matter, but that doesn't really matter now. All that matters is that he gets his life back on track and for that he'll need a lot more help than he has received (altho' a lot of friends did support him - he is an open and likeable character from what I have heard).

Very sad for athletics in general as Fagan had a talent, but that career has been finished when instead he should have been in his prime. It won't harm the AAI (Fagan is unknown outside the small athletics community), nor the drug-testing programme. Hopefully it'll also remind officialdom that there are people at the end of their rulings and that people can be hurt as a result. If there's any positive to be gained it's that it may even prompt one or two to pause and reflect.

As for the couple of posters here making light of depression or the limbo situation that Fagin was isolated in - I just hope you never have to face it or the consequences nor are you ever prevented from working.

One point that AAI should investigate - his name should not have been released (or leaked...) until after tomorrow's hearing. I haven't heard any complaints from Fagan, but AAI should look to put their house in order also.

meemeep

But there was no need for any closer monitoring as people in Ireland were made aware of the illicit stuff on his personal credit card as soon as he placed the order

Outside lane - can you explain that one? Surely that would be illegal - to monitor someone's personal credit card history and pounce. Surely there would need to be a warrant to do that?

Killerz

Read the article there myself today and like many others, felt sorry for him. I can't understand some of the decisions he made, but then again I am not in the same position as him with the same pressures and mental mindset that he has.

Too often we have read about people like Martin when it is too late, they have already made the ultimate decision to take their life after suffering from depression or the difficulties they had due to pressures in life. He said he felt somewhat relieved - lets hope this will spur him on to talk about his difficulties and also help those around him to help him.

OutsideLane

meemeep wrote: »

But there was no need for any closer monitoring as people in Ireland were made aware of the illicit stuff on his personal credit card as soon as he placed the order

Outside lane - can you explain that one? Surely that would be illegal - to monitor someone's personal credit card history and pounce. Surely there would need to be a warrant to do that?

I wouldn't use the word 'history' - had to be real time/event triggered. But 'illegal'? - not in the US afaik. You could use any country in the world as your 'base' if you're monitoring t'interweb. It does go on. Just try putting a few vials of EPO or Clenbuterol on your personal credit card if you want to test... (joking - sorry...)

It was done in the past; I'd be surprised if it wasn't still going on. Been teaching teens about probability today - what's the probability they would do a random just after he goes offside - more than a co-incidence I'd say. Of course all such surveillance/monitoring would be denied; but the 'random' check is still valid. You don't need a warrant to do a dope test...... And MF knew that when he did the deed.

I still work in IT (but not in 'IT security' these days). The tools were readily available some years back. I'd be surprised if they haven't honed them by now. I'd go as far as to say our cops would be neglecting their duties if they weren't UTD on such stuff.

Oh, I mentioned about the leaking/publishing of the name - totally against the rules as well. In this case the person named has confessed his guilt; they have named people in the past who were subsequently exonerated. That is a more sinister aspect (innocent until proved, etc...).

ThisRegard

SWL wrote: »

I am fully aware of depression and its outcomes, there are different levels or stages of depression which is why I don't understand why someone can seek medical help and then claim that it’s the illness that lead them to take EPO rather than admitting it was taken to gain an unfair advantage which has nothing to do with depression as an illness.

You say you understand depression in your first sentence but with what you follow it up with contradicts it.

Put yourself in his shoes, you're a talented athlete with so much promise ahead of you, you start picking up injuries and your performance suffers to the point where you're probably going to miss qualifying for the Olympics, the pinnacle of ones career. That's enough to make anyone depressed, never mind someone already suffering with depression. So you're sitting there abroad thinking what can you do, you think that being back to your peak may make everything better and that's the place you want to be, so how can you get there ? You're not thinking rationally so you'll probably do whatever it takes.

tunney

Lets all make/accept all the excuses and welcome him back with open arms.
That sound like a plan that suits people here.

He is a doper, a cheat,a fraud. He also suffers from depression. The latter does not change the former and he should not, IHMO, still be held in the high regard that so many of you obviously hold him.

Pitied yes, respected never again.

ThisRegard

tunney wrote: »

Lets all make/accept all the excuses and welcome him back with open arms.
That sound like a plan that suits people here.

That's certainly not the impression I'm getting from the thread, sympathy, yes, ignoring what happened and not wishing a ban etc, no.