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Irish times today !!! - interview with Martin Fagan

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    #122
    thirtyfoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    drquirky wrote: »
    What exactly do you or anyone else have to gain from having those questions answered?...Maybe time to let sleeping dogs sleep.

    For clarity and certainty. I am sure they are all explainable so what harm would it do. Did IOR ask him these questions or did he simply accept up front his version of the story. Why is CF so cynical?

    I am involved in athletics. I'd like to know.


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    #123
    rovers_runner
    Registered Users Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭rovers_runner


    Ssssssshhhh Lumen, don't upset the applecart.
    People have put this into a nice little package, there is no drugs problem with Irish athletics, it was de Lehman brothers you see....


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    #124
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,074 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    rovers_runner wrote: »
    People have put this into a nice little package, there is no drugs problem with Irish athletics,

    My perspective is that there is a risk/temptation of doping facing all athletes in all sports in all countries, and that it never pays to be complacent.

    I think it is important to give individual athletes who have not tested positive the benefit of the doubt, because if we treat them the same as the dopers then there is no little moral incentive to stay clean (call me a doper and I may as well dope).


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    #125
    tunguska
    Registered Users Posts: 3,545 ✭✭✭tunguska


    gerard65 wrote: »
    The more I've read about this issue, the least I think it was a cynical attempt to cheat. Hope he can now take time out and get himself sorted.

    Yeah I have that same feeling about the whole thing. Personally I hope Martin goes away and gets himself some balance in his life and gets back to running naturally, if he feels like it of course.


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    #126
    shels4ever
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,598 ✭✭✭shels4ever


    thirtyfoot wrote: »
    Very good post. I am not 100% comfortable with all this. We are taking what he said to IOR as gospel and yet he is a cheat. Do you trust a cheat. In athletics the most heinous crime is doping. Its not murder or other stuff in the real world but in athletics its as bad as it gets. IOR has always been a huge fan of his so he is possibly biased, maybe not. On the opposite, Cliona Foley has been quite cynical.

    There are some things I am not sure of that possibly need to be clarified but probably never will be. I want to believe but I'm not 100%

    Who was his friend that had the apartment?
    Why did he go to this friend?
    If he wanted to be caught why not stay and do it in Flagstaff where he knew testers may come to?
    Did he know what was going on?
    How did Fagan know so much about EPO and how it should be taken or not?
    Where was Fagan going to store the drugs for the two weeks (EPO must be stored in a fridge, was this ok with his friend)?
    Was it just bad luck they tested him on the first day of drug use?
    Why did the ISC ask for him to be tested, was it just good luck on their part?
    He was tested on December 10th but didn't come clean until January 16th, why not earlier?
    When exactly did his coach know?
    Keith Kelly said he was told just after xmas and then quickly said the New Year on Radio, was that just a slip of the tongue in an otherwise flawless interview?
    Why did Fagan take so long to tell Kelly?
    Why did Kelly take so long to come clean?
    Was Kelly in depression or denial also and was he going to keep it quiet until they got the results?
    Did he come clean or were they waiting for the results?
    When exactly were the results announced to Fagan and Kelly?

    Think you have nearly covered all the questions i'd have on it to.

    For me I would think that he has some small hope that he would pass the test for what ever reasons... and one other thing, what if the testers didnt come calling, I have a feeling it wouldnt have been the last time he took the stuff. Just because your caugh the first time you do something, doesnt mean that was going to be the only time.


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    #127
    Seres
    Registered Users Posts: 1,900 ✭✭✭Seres


    I think its fair enough to ask him them questions and expect him to answer them as truthfully as possible . He did choose to explain his situation in what would seem like an attempt to be honest and transparent and on that basis he should be forcoming with all queried information bout the issue . His actions were dishonest in sofar as he didnt come clean about it , he was caught out so its only natural that people would want more clarification that normal under the circumstances .


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    #128
    wally_smith
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭wally_smith


    Hi guys,

    Something I haven't heard discussed. The doping issue aside (a big thing to put aside, obviously), am I the only one who was made a little uncomfortable with quite how much of Fagan's troubles were broadcast to the world at large? If he is in as bad a way as the article makes out, this is not a sensitive or sensible way to treat someone suffering from mental illness.

    And I know he spoke willingly to O'Riordan, but again if he's in as bad a way as the article makes out, then issues of reasonable consent come into play - he can't be considered responsible or in his right mind. Has the journalist acted responsibly in this situation? For a minute, try to think if Fagan was your brother/son/friend, rather than 'the guy who's f***ed over Irish sport for all of us', etc.

    I speak as someone who has had relatives suffer from mental illness. And this is a level of intrusion into someone's personal problems beyond anything I've seen before in a broadsheet.

    Although I guess on the other side it could also be argued that this is bringing to light serious issues that plague many athletes, and that need to be destigmatised.

    Seán


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    #129
    BeepBeep67
    Registered Users Posts: 8,082 ✭✭✭BeepBeep67


    Fagan brought a little bit of Rock and Roll to Irish athletics, made it a little cool even, Luke (my son) was talking all the way home from the park last April about the guy with the tattoos. Every time he raced he raised expectations and I'm sure that brought it's own pressures. Without condoning what he's done, I hope he sorts himself out mentally, I'm not so sure if we'll see him on the circuit again.
    Looking forward to the autobiography though!


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    #130
    myflipflops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭myflipflops


    rovers_runner wrote: »
    Ssssssshhhh Lumen, don't upset the applecart.
    People have put this into a nice little package, there is no drugs problem with Irish athletics, it was de Lehman brothers you see....

    Do you really think there is a drug problem in Irish athletics? Do you think it is rife in the sport here? It seems incredibly unlikely there is.

    In my opinion, Irish athletes by nature are no more or no less likely to take PEDs than most other countries. We are not paragons of virtue: some athletes will cheat. What they are is much, much more likely to get caught if they do resort to it. As such, the risk/reward ratio is much heavier on the risk side.
    Lumen wrote: »
    Sure, better to write this one off as an anomaly and sweep it under the carpet.

    How is it being swept under the carpet? It's national news. Do you believe this incident is warning of a huge, unknown PED conspiracy within Irish athletics?

    Did anyone actually note the part of the IT article about how Fagan got caught?? I mean, how many associations in the world would have been following and testing a guy life Fagan who had not qualified for a major champs since 2008, had never won a medal and had not been getting a grant for 2 years.


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    #131
    robinph
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,096 Mod ✭✭✭✭robinph


    wally_smith wrote: »
    Hi guys,

    Something I haven't heard discussed. The doping issue aside (a big thing to put aside, obviously), am I the only one who was made a little uncomfortable with quite how much of Fagan's troubles were broadcast to the world at large? If he is in as bad a way as the article makes out, this is not a sensitive or sensible way to treat someone suffering from mental illness.

    And I know he spoke willingly to O'Riordan, but again if he's in as bad a way as the article makes out, then issues of reasonable consent come into play - he can't be considered responsible or in his right mind. Has the journalist acted responsibly in this situation? For a minute, try to think if Fagan was your brother/son/friend, rather than 'the guy who's f***ed over Irish sport for all of us', etc.

    I speak as someone who has had relatives suffer from mental illness. And this is a level of intrusion into someone's personal problems beyond anything I've seen before in a broadsheet.

    Although I guess on the other side it could also be argued that this is bringing to light serious issues that plague many athletes, and that need to be destigmatised.

    Seán

    I think you'd probably be right that for most people such an issue is best dealt with outside of the newspapers. As he's in the public eye though, this is the best way of getting people to then leave him alone in order to deal with it.

    If the details of the failed test had come out and then we'd heared nothing more then the resulting hassle he'd have got, and the direction that threads on here would have taken, would have been far different and most certainly not helpful for him.


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    #132
    thirtyfoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    myflipflops wrote: »
    I mean, how many associations in the world would have been following and testing a guy life Fagan who had not qualified for a major champs since 2008, had never won a medal and had not been getting a grant for 2 years.

    That's another open question. Considering he wasn't in the top tier of our elite athletes, was it luck they tested him? If no, why were they focusing on testing him?

    On the wider topic of doping in Ireland. I would imagine most of our elites are clean if not all. When I heard a rumour of a failed test I had a list of 3 athletes who I believed were possibles, Fagan was one of them. I was still surprised to hear it though.


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    #133
    TFBubendorfer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭TFBubendorfer


    myflipflops wrote: »
    In my opinion, Irish athletes by nature are no more or no less likely to take PEDs than most other countries.

    I agree, but if you read the entire thread you will find at least one post arguing vehemently against this.
    Update: actually, the one post I had in mind was on the "other" thread about the same incident.


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    #134
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Lumen wrote: »
    Fagan is essentially saying "I only did it once when my life/career was going really badly and got caught through bad luck and coincidence".

    Thats your interpretation. He claims he got got because he wanted to. He could have evaded the testers but he chose not to. Youre arguing agaaisnt a strawman.
    I think it is dangerous to take accounts like this at face value without corroborating evidence.

    Thats your account. Presumably his credit card will have a transaction which can corroborate that he bought it online.
    His story is credible but that doesn't make it true. He might say exactly the same thing if he'd doped for years but wanted to keep open the option of returning to competition (with public support) after a ban.

    He cant have doped for years because he would have been caught. Unless he was on a sophisticated doping program (with mcmillan presumably) and reverted to the online arrangement. The credit card has/will be checked out.
    David Millar (cyclist) tells a similar story in his autobiography. He claims that he successfully competed clean for years, and then only doped briefly, he's very sorry, is now a part of the anti-doping subculture, etc etc.

    Thats not a similar story and thats another strawman you are building. Did Millar suffer from severe depression? Was his methods of taking it contrived enough to avoid detection?
    But the fact is that this story allowed him to resume his pro career after the ban was up (albeit without any chance of Olympic competition due to Team GB rules), so he was incentivised to tell such a story story regardless of the truth.

    Fagan is de facto finished with professional running. When his ban is up he will be 30. He'll have to have worked for the 2 years, and no-one will be sponsoring him.
    I think the healthiest response is on the one hand to take it at face value as far as lessons for keeping other athletes clean, but also to bear in mind that any testimony from a proven cheat is by nature tainted.

    And thats really what i have issue with with this absolute definition of character as "proven cheat" and all that that phrase implies.

    There is a difference between cheating once and cheating consistantly over a period of time. Otherwise, we are all proven liars are we not?

    A man found guilty of defrauding hundreds of people of their pensions is a proven crook. A very poor man who is found guilty of robbing a loaf of bread may also be techincally a proven crook. However, if you were to imply that because the latter is a proven crook he is also a liar and completely untrustworthy, then that would be unfair.

    In the case of Fagan you are saying that his story should be taken at face value but that because he is a "proven cheat" his character is suspect and we must assume that he is probably lying.

    I have great sympathy for anyone struggling with depression, but at the same when an athlete is proven to have cheated it calls into question all the achievements of their career.

    Sometimes rightly...sometimes wrongly.

    I believe Martin Fagan has a lot more in common with the case of Sammy Wanjiru than with any "proven cheat". Sammys drug of choice was alcohol (that man surely needed medication for depression). His irrational decision when injured cost him his life. Hopefully Martins wont result in same.

    One last point. In the overall scheme of things a man who drinks the weekly pay check with his pals at the expense of his wife and kids, for example, is acting in a far more despicable manner than Fagan ever has or will ever do.


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    #135
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,288 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    He cant have doped for years because he would have been caught
    Seriously? You think every doper has been caught?
    The credit card has/will be checked out.
    By who and why? He's admitted he's cheted, had his penalty imposed and accepted it. No one in authority wants to bring this further
    T runner wrote: »
    One last point. In the overall scheme of things a man who drinks the weekly pay check with his pals at the expense of his wife and kids, for example, is acting in a far more despicable manner than Fagan ever has or will ever do.

    Possibly the most irrelevent analogy yet

    No one on this thread has attempted to claim that Fagan is a bad person, or guilty of any real life crimes/misdemeanours


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    #136
    downthemiddle
    Registered Users Posts: 3,017 ✭✭✭downthemiddle


    Dodge wrote: »
    No one in authority wants to bring this further

    On what basis do you make this statement? Are you suggesting some form of cover up? Another grassy knoll conspiracy perhaps?


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    #137
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,288 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    downthemiddle wrote: »
    On what basis do you make this statement? Are you suggesting some form of cover up? Another grassy knoll conspiracy perhaps?

    No, sorry, complete opposit.

    He failed the test and got the standard ban. Can't see how any of the authorities did anything improper at all.

    Fagan didn't fight it, so there's no point (for them) in finding out his reasons/whether it was the first time etc. That would be just window dressing.

    Would be a waste of valuable resources IMO


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    #138
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Dodge wrote: »
    Seriously? You think every doper has been caught?

    Holy cow the strawman army has come! Argue against the argument i actually posted please!
    He cant have doped for years because he would have been caught. Unless he was on a sophisticated doping program (with mcmillan presumably) and reverted to the online arrangement. The credit card has/will be checked out.

    The people who have evaded detection would have been under sophisticated doping programs and not the naieve effort that was Fagans. Anyone who doped like Fagan did was certain to be caught. ERGO: He cant have doped for years because he would have been caught. Unless he was on a sophisticated doping program (with mcmillan presumably) and reverted to the online arrangement.
    By who and why? He's admitted he's cheted, had his penalty imposed and accepted it. No one in authority wants to bring this further

    A journalist interviewing him, for example, would without doubt expect to be shown that transaction at some stage. There is no reason why that shouldnt be the case as it is in both Fagans interest (if true) and the journalists interest (in all cases) for that claim to be validated.


    Possibly the most irrelevent analogy yet

    Not too worried. Your use of strawmen (and hints of antagonism?) to prop your argument means i definately dont hold your judgement in high esteem.
    No one on this thread has attempted to claim that Fagan is a bad person, or guilty of any real life crimes/misdemeanours

    The poster that i was replying to claimed that Fagans word could not be trusted because he was a "proven cheat". "a proven cheat" therefore as that poster meant it is in reference to his character: has taken EPO=probably liar.

    To say that "no-one" has implied such slights is plainly ridiculous. Read the trhead and reply to real posts.


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    #139
    Dodge
    Registered Users Posts: 10,288 ✭✭✭✭Dodge


    T runner wrote: »
    The people who have evaded detection would have been under sophisticated doping programs and not the naieve effort that was Fagans. Anyone who doped like Fagan did was certain to be caught. ERGO: He cant have doped for years because he would have been caught. Unless he was on a sophisticated doping program (with mcmillan presumably) and reverted to the online arrangement.
    You can call me strawman all you like, but I don't believe that testing catches a majority of non 'sophisticated' users.
    A journalist interviewing him, for example, would without doubt expect to be shown that transaction at some stage. There is no reason why that shouldnt be the case as it is in both Fagans interest (if true) and the journalists interest (in all cases) for that claim to be validated.
    Without seeing the transcript we'll never know but the published interview didn't show O'Riordan pusing him on the missed test, or the fact he was being targetted for testing. I don't think its a stretch to believe he wouldn't have asked for proof.
    Not too worried. Your use of strawmen (and hints of antagonism?) to prop your argument means i definately dont hold your judgement in high esteem.
    Thats fine. Wasn't my intention to be antagonistic, except of course to disagree with soe of your assertions
    The poster that i was replying to claimed that Fagans word could not be trusted because he was a "proven cheat". "a proven cheat" therefore as that poster meant it is in reference to his character: has taken EPO=probably liar
    He has cheated, and it has been proven. Again, its not a stretch to assume he was, at the least, intending to lie about taking PEDs. Even you suggest that the interviewer should make fagan prove he was telling thr truth.

    To say that "no-one" has implied such slights is plainly ridiculous. Read the trhead and reply to real posts.
    I have read, and contributed to, the thread. I have yet to see anyone compare him to someone who wrecks a family


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    #140
    T runner
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,307 ✭✭✭T runner


    Dodge wrote: »
    You can call me strawman all you like, but I don't believe that testing catches a majority of non 'sophisticated' users.

    Fagans doping was 10 years behind the current standards (doping and detection). If you dope like he did you will be caught. Can you substantiate why you dont believe this please?

    Without seeing the transcript we'll never know but the published interview didn't show O'Riordan pusing him on the missed test, or the fact he was being targetted for testing. I don't think its a stretch to believe he wouldn't have asked for proof.

    I do. You'll notice that the credit card claim was not even questioned in the Indo's article. This is so easy to check that Fagan would not make it; or O'Riordan not print it without knowing it to be true. This is just putting yourself in either mans position. Unless you think O'Riordan is a fool?


    Thats fine. Wasn't my intention to be antagonistic, except of course to disagree with soe of your assertions

    Then please dont use phrases like "possibly the least relevant comment on this thread".

    He has cheated, and it has been proven.

    No he has tested positive for EPO. The sentiment "proven cheater" is a tabloid one. He is no more a proven cheater tahn you and I are "proven liars".

    I have read, and contributed to, the thread. I have yet to see anyone compare him to someone who wrecks a family

    Thats not what you said. You stated that nobody was claiming taht he is a bad person or guilty of a real life misdemeanor. People here are implying the former at the very least. The drinking man analogy was to allow some people to get a little real here. The only person who really gor hurt here was Martin Fagan. His candid admissions and interviews insured that the spotlight was put away from Irish athletics.

    Good on jim for starting his redemption thatw ay. Good on IOR also.


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    #141
    BeepBeep67
    Registered Users Posts: 8,082 ✭✭✭BeepBeep67


    Kevin Selby piece on Flotrack: www.flotrack.org/blog/40816-Martin-Fagans-Desperation


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    #142
    cfitz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭cfitz


    T runner wrote: »
    I do. You'll notice that the credit card claim was not even questioned in the Indo's article. This is so easy to check that Fagan would not make it; or O'Riordan not print it without knowing it to be true.

    I would like to check this out myself. How do I go about it?


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    #143
    RayCun
    Registered Users Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    cfitz wrote: »
    I would like to check this out myself. How do I go about it?

    Ask Martin Fagan for access to his credit card records.
    This may be easier to do if you are a journalist interviewing him for a national paper, or a member of the AAI.


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    #144
    cfitz
    Registered Users Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭cfitz


    RayCun wrote: »
    Ask Martin Fagan for access to his credit card records.
    This may be easier to do if you are a journalist interviewing him for a national paper, or a member of the AAI.

    Cool, I am a member of the AAI so should be handy enough...


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    #145
    Krusty_Clown
    Registered Users Posts: 19,518 ✭✭✭✭Krusty_Clown


    cfitz wrote: »
    Cool, I am a member of the AAI so should be handy enough...
    Sure let us know what you find out.

    Actually, I'm a member of the AAI too. Can I see your credit card statement please? :)


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    #146
    Clearlier
    Registered Users Posts: 4,454 ✭✭✭Clearlier


    Another article by O'Riordan:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0121/1224310577334.html

    To be honest I don't think that it's very well written. There's not much of a narrative. In many ways it reads like a response to some of the unsupportive posts on this thread. In fact, it feels like the author is still shell shocked by what has happened.

    However, it does relate to the previous articles so I think it's worth reading.


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    #147
    Dan man
    Registered Users Posts: 3,076 ✭✭✭Dan man


    Clearlier wrote: »
    Another article by O'Riordan:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0121/1224310577334.html

    To be honest I don't think that it's very well written. There's not much of a narrative. In many ways it reads like a response to some of the unsupportive posts on this thread. In fact, it feels like the author is still shell shocked by what has happened.

    However, it does relate to the previous articles so I think it's worth reading.

    I see what you mean, the article is not adding much to what's been reported already. I suppose its important to keep the whole issue of depression in the spotlight but we have to move onto the next chapter in the story.


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    #148
    myflipflops
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭myflipflops


    The below piece from the article sums up my opinion nearly perfectly.

    Seems to sum up the opinion of most of his peers who have come out to condemn the drug use but not to hammer the man.

    O'Riordan has done an excellent job through this story of providing the facts and information presented to him in an unbiased manner without throwing out huge opinions or declarations.
    ian O'Riordan wrote: »
    as unbelievable some aspects of his story were, I found no way to doubt it, but rather somehow felt able to relate to it, at least in some small ways. If Fagan has got any sympathy this week it’s definitely not for the way he stupidly and very damagingly took EPO, and perhaps should have realised, no matter how depressed he was, that he was crossing an unforgivable line.

    What some people can sympathise with, can relate to, myself included, is how the so-called loneliness of the long distance runner is not always a healthy thing, not when it turns to aloneness


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    #149
    thirtyfoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    myflipflops wrote: »

    O'Riordan has done an excellent job through this story of providing the facts and information presented to him in an unbiased manner without throwing out huge opinions or declarations.

    Not sure about that. It's very much opinion based and low on facts from IOR. He is biased as he has always been a fan of Fagan more than any other current athlete I'd say. Open questions on the friend, the 1 month gap coming clean, when the coach knew, how ISC requested a test within 24 hrs etc. All key facts yet not answered. Did he ask these questions? We seem to be taking IOR piece as fact. Probably is fact but I am still not convinced, something doesn't seem right. I am only wondering this because if this is not true then it's the greatest coup in the history of drug taking in sport. So, I think we need to be certain. Starting with the friend in Tucson and whether he knew would be a start.


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    #150
    bryangiggsy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    thirtyfoot wrote: »
    Not sure about that. It's very much opinion based and low on facts from IOR. He is biased as he has always been a fan of Fagan more than any other current athlete I'd say. Open questions on the friend, the 1 month gap coming clean, when the coach knew, how ISC requested a test within 24 hrs etc. All key facts yet not answered. Did he ask these questions? We seem to be taking IOR piece as fact. Probably is fact but I am still not convinced, something doesn't seem right. I am only wondering this because if this is not true then it's the greatest coup in the history of drug taking in sport. So, I think we need to be certain. Starting with the friend in Tucson and whether he knew would be a start.



    The greatest coup in the history of drug taking in Sport. This made me laugh.
    All thats is missing is a grassy knoll.
    Thread well and truly flogged.


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    #151
    SWL
    Registered Users Posts: 574 ✭✭✭SWL


    Paul Kimmage questioning Ian O Riordan on italk on Setanta about the sequence of events before and after the test.
    Going by the body language IOR is getting very defensive. Well done to Paul Kimmage it’s about time someone questioned why Martin was selected for a test by whom and the events that followed.


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