Lack of signage

Fuinseog

I have just started driving and discovered that trying to find places you do not know in this country is a nightmare.few country roads have any kind of signage. things seemed to be geared for those who already know where they are going. at roundabouts the signs are only to be seen when you get on the actual roundabout which means a stranger does not know which lane to take.

there also seems to be the odd custom of planting trees and bushes in front of signs. is there any reason for this?

Kumsheen

It's a particular problem in this country for as long as i can remember, i don't know how tourists ever got around the place before sat nav was invented.

L1011

If you think its bad now, try fifteen years or more ago. Donegal was renowned for having to have announcements on local radio for lost tourists and so on.

Of course that doesn't excuse it still being rather poor...

corktina

signage is awful in Ireland generally, you'd kinda expect it out in the sticks, but when I came home from Dublin last week I noticed that the signs for Cork and Limerick took you out by Heuston station but when you get to the M50 there is no sign to tell you whether to head straight on on the N4 or to take the M50 (unless I missed it)

galwaycyclist

As I recall for years as you left Dublin airport down the M50 the exit for the West was marked "Sligo". If you were heading to Galway you had to be in "the know" nudge nudge wimk wink.

I can think of at least one visitor who got caught like that and ended up going considerably out of their way.

BrensBenz

galwaycyclist wrote: »

As I recall for years as you left Dublin airport down the M50 the exit for the West was marked "Sligo". If you were heading to Galway you had to be in "the know" nudge nudge wimk wink.

Correct! Irish signage seems to be designed to provide a reminder for people who already know the route and not as guidance to those who are unfamiliar with it.
Whenever I am confronted by exasperated tourists, I advise them that we Irish are “familiar with the concept of road signs….they just never really caught on.”
Also, there seems to be no national "standard". In general, motorway signage is quite good (ish) but it becomes variable (open to interpretation) on N roads and goes cryptic on R roads.
Maybe the various departments, councils and corporations responsible for signage think that haphazard signage is…..”quaint” or “great gas”. “Sure, haven’t they a tongue in their heads?” Unfortunately, many Irish people give directions as if their knowledge was being tested – their ability to relay that knowledge was unimportant.
Buy a sat nav. It will pay for itself many times over and reduce the stress of realizing you’re lost and late!

L1011

galwaycyclist wrote: »

As I recall for years as you left Dublin airport down the M50 the exit for the West was marked "Sligo". If you were heading to Galway you had to be in "the know" nudge nudge wimk wink.

Flag signage for entrances on to the original (1990s) M4 said solely "Sligo" only until a year or two ago. Believe it was due to being 'compliant' with a very flawed TSM at the time.

munchkin_utd

MYOB wrote: »

Flag signage for entrances on to the original (1990s) M4 said solely "Sligo" only until a year or two ago. Believe it was due to being 'compliant' with a very flawed TSM at the time.

so the road to Cork (the city a minor settlement, also a tiny county in itsself :rolleyes: ) out of Dublin would have had zero mention of Cork till Portlaoise too so?

L1011

munchkin_utd wrote: »

so the road to Cork (the city a minor settlement, also a tiny county in itsself :rolleyes: ) out of Dublin would have had zero mention of Cork till Portlaoise too so?

Officially, I'd imagine so. The old signs on the N7 DC just had "Cork" and not "Limerick, Waterford" though!

Alun

When I moved here 10 years ago I drove into Dublin to pick something up from a shop and got a bit lost trying to find my way back to Bray, so automatically followed the signs to "The South" ... seemed logical to me at the time After a while nothing looked familiar, so imagine my surprise when I stopped, looked at my map and discovered I was on my way to Cork!

marmurr1916

Alun wrote: »

When I moved here 10 years ago I drove into Dublin to pick something up from a shop and got a bit lost trying to find my way back to Bray, so automatically followed the signs to "The South" ... seemed logical to me at the time After a while nothing looked familiar, so imagine my surprise when I stopped, looked at my map and discovered I was on my way to Cork!

Could just have easily happened anywhere in the UK with signs for 'The South' (and 'The North').

Signage is fairly poor in Ireland, but people also need to realise that, even with the best signage in the world, you're still going to need a map and/or satnav, and a basic knowledge of the geography of the country

Try finding your way from central London to Birmingham without a map/satnav or a basic knowledge of English geography.

You wouldn't be able to do it based on signposts alone, unless you knew that Birmingham was north of London and knew that the major routes between London and Birmingham are the M1/M6 and the M40.

icdg

MYOB wrote: »

Flag signage for entrances on to the original (1990s) M4 said solely "Sligo" only until a year or two ago. Believe it was due to being 'compliant' with a very flawed TSM at the time.

The explanation for this is, when these signs were erected, they read "THE WEST" as superdestinations were still allowed when the M4 was opened in 1994. The 1996 TSM banned superdestinations and changed to the current policy whereby on national primary roads the signed destinations should be the road's terminal point and the next primary destination. (TSM 2010 allows optionally for two terminal destinations on spurs to be signed but TBH I can't remember if this was the case with TSM 1996.)

Anyway, nothing was done for a few years, but at some point, South Dublin County Council felt the need to go out and patch every instance of "THE WEST" with "Sligo" instead. There wouldn't have been room on those signs to patch "Sligo, Galway, Westport" as should have been the case. The signs were recently replaced when the N4 upgrade scheme happened and now do read "Sligo, Galway, Westport".

Similar scenario on the N7 Naas Road.

mathepac

There's two different bunches of highly paid public servants currently employed (or more likely supervising UK sub-contractors) working furiously to chanage what seems like every sign-post in the country - no, not erect new signs but change existing signs.

The first group is determined to eradicate and Anglicise every vestige of the original Irish names of towns and villages. The new "Irish name" for Nenagh for example is "Aonach" according to the replacements for the old iron finger-posts. The origin for the Anglo name "Nenagh" is "Aonach Urumhan", the ancient North Munster Fair. Does anyone know the cost of unnecessarily swapping out these signs and who authorised the expenditure?

The other crowd dashing around the countryside are carefully appending stickers to the supports for the signs which give each and every sign a number, presumably linked to some yet-to-be-identified national postal system or GPS location. Does anyone know the cost of sticking numbers / identifier on these signs and who authorised the expenditure?

For a country that needs tourist revenue in the worst way possible, we certainly need to improve our piss-poor signage and improve on our pathetic nod to a multi-lingual Europe with something better than the tokenistic "Conduire a gauche" (spotted on the exit from Shannon airport where for decades the drivers were Irish coach & taxi drivers or Amuricans in rent-a-wrecks - from Paris, Texas no doubt)

niloc1951

mathepac wrote: »

There's two different bunches of highly paid public servants currently employed (or more likely supervising UK sub-contractors) working furiously to chanage what seems like every sign-post in the country - no, not erect new signs but change existing signs.

The first group is determined to eradicate and Anglicise every vestige of the original Irish names of towns and villages. The new "Irish name" for Nenagh for example is "Aonach" according to the replacements for the old iron finger-posts. The origin for the Anglo name "Nenagh" is "Aonach Urumhan", the ancient North Munster Fair. Does anyone know the cost of unnecessarily swapping out these signs and who authorised the expenditure?

The other crowd dashing around the countryside are carefully appending stickers to the supports for the signs which give each and every sign a number, presumably linked to some yet-to-be-identified national postal system or GPS location. Does anyone know the cost of sticking numbers / identifier on these signs and who authorised the expenditure?

For a country that needs tourist revenue in the worst way possible, we certainly need to improve our piss-poor signage and improve on our pathetic nod to a multi-lingual Europe with something better than the tokenistic "Conduire a gauche" (spotted on the exit from Shannon airport where for decades the drivers were Irish coach & taxi drivers or Amuricans in rent-a-wrecks - from Paris, Texas no doubt)

Would this be a good example of what you mean :D

mathepac

niloc1951 wrote: »

Would this be a good example of what you mean :D

That is an excellent example of what I mean - "Irishing" into meaningless gobbledegook the Anglo version of an ancient Irish name. The other change they're making is this random addition of vowels.

The country's gone mad, mad I tell ye, the feckers are fecken up the whole country and we'll be lost, lost I tell ye, goin' round in mad, lost circles the whole time, atin' poor losht tourishts for sport.

Wild Bill

Fuinseog wrote: »

there also seems to be the odd custom of planting trees and bushes in front of signs. is there any reason for this?

Nah, more commonly the custom is to place the signs behind bushes or trees, the latter being there longer

In fairness, the quality of signage has improved dramatically the past few years, albeit it from a very low starting position.

Wild Bill

mathepac wrote: »

The other crowd dashing around the countryside are carefully appending stickers to the supports for the signs which give each and every sign a number

For a country that needs tourist revenue in the worst way possible, we certainly need to improve our piss-poor signage

Leaving aside the language issue (which bothers very few of those badly needed tourists I'd wager) the numbering of signs is a very basic step in the modernization and systematization of road-sign management. :cool:

charlemont

Our National roads and Motorways are easy to navigate but our Regional and Local roads can really take the piss, a big part of the problem is that out in the countryside locals use the Townlands as their addresses , Now the Townlands themselves aren't really settlements as such just large rural areas in themselves, so you could drive around them in circles, I like the new L signposts and they could be linked to the new postcodes that are supposedly being planned.

niloc1951

charlemont wrote: »

.......................they could be linked to the new postcodes that are supposedly being planned.

Are THESE not our new post codes, although they seem to be in use by some official bodies and others, they still seem to be unofficially official, very Irish.:rolleyes:

charlemont

niloc1951 wrote: »

Are THESE not our new post codes, although they seem to be in use by some official bodies and others, they still seem to be unofficially official, very Irish.:rolleyes:

It seems they are trying to establish their own codes as the one to adopt but its not official as far as I know, I'm personally against any complicated postcode system as it is, as Ireland is a small country we just need proper official road names in the country and proper suburban boundaries in urban areas. A few signposts wouldn't go astray in helping..

mathepac

I already have my 8 character xxx-xx-xxx loc8code for my house from the crowd in Cork. It bears no relationship that I can work out with the identifiers I have on the signposts. Apparently these loc8code codes work with Garmin and other sat-nav systems.

tonc76

niloc1951 wrote: »

Would this be a good example of what you mean :D

There are six instances of Gortroe in Cork alone and one of Gortaroo according to the placenames database. Presuming the area in question is in Cork, both of these signs could be completely valid?

http://www.logainm.ie/Viewer.aspx?text=gortroe&streets=yes

Gortaroo is the most easterly point shown

niloc1951

tonc76 wrote: »

There are six instances of Gortroe in Cork alone and one of Gortaroo according to the placenames database. Presuming the area in question is in Cork, both of these signs could be completely valid?

http://www.logainm.ie/Viewer.aspx?text=gortroe&streets=yes

Gortaroo is the most easterly point shown

The Gortaroo on the OS map is a 'townland' area between the N25 and the village of Gortroe as per the old 'harp' signpost.
Incidently, the signage which was recently remove and replaced by the new ones carried names as per the still in existence old 'harp' sign.

The two photos in my earlier post are referring to the same village.

tonc76

niloc1951 wrote: »

The Gortaroo on the OS map is a 'townland' area between the N25 and the village of Gortroe as per the old 'harp' signpost.
Incidently, the signage which was recently remove and replaced by the new ones carried names as per the still in existence old 'harp' sign.

The two photos in my earlier post are referring to the same village.

I've had a look at it again and zoomed into see that there are two pins quite close to eachother. It appears that Gortaroo is the official name (of the population centre) and Gortroe is the local name.

http://www.logainm.ie/Viewer.aspx?text=gortroe&streets=yes&listText=&filterParent=100010&filterType=

This comes down to the LA (or their agents) who should be removing old signage as soon as new signage is erected.

niloc1951

tonc76 wrote: »

I've had a look at it again and zoomed into see that there are two pins quite close to eachother. It appears that Gortaroo is the official name (of the population centre) and Gortroe is the local name.

http://www.logainm.ie/Viewer.aspx?text=gortroe&streets=yes&listText=&filterParent=100010&filterType=

This comes down to the LA (or their agents) who should be removing old signage as soon as new signage is erected.

Apologies, but I don't follow your point.
Gortroe - Gort Rua (Yellow Field) has always been the name of the village in question. My point and that of mathepac is that we seem to have a Dept. or sub-contractor somewhere which is unfamiliar with the original name places and are referring to unreliable sources when making up the new signposts.

The village in question is Gortroe, (An) Gort Rua in old OS maps, old (official not locally made up) signposting and other old documentation referring to it.
http://homepage.eircom.net/~clonpriestns/centenary.htm and http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1987/12/02/00061.asp

As regards the LA 'should be removing old signposts', this sounds like you are suggesting the act of removing such signposts de-facto officially removes the old name from the records.

tonc76

niloc1951 wrote: »

Apologies, but I don't follow your point.
Gortroe - Gort Rua (Yellow Field) has always been the name of the village in question. My point and that of mathepac is that we seem to have a Dept. or sub-contractor somewhere which is unfamiliar with the original name places and are referring to unreliable sources when making up the new signposts.

The village in question is Gortroe, (An) Gort Rua in old OS maps, old (official not locally made up) signposting and other old documentation referring to it.
http://homepage.eircom.net/~clonpriestns/centenary.htm and http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1987/12/02/00061.asp

As regards the LA 'should be removing old signposts', this sounds like you are suggesting the act of removing such signposts de-facto officially removes the old name from the records.

I was not suggesting anything of the sort regarding the LA removing signs! It often happens when a town has a bypass built which changes the route of a national road which previously passed through the town. The LA should , on completion of the bypass and rerouting of traffic, remove signage on the "old" route through the town as the NXX numbering no longer applies. This is often not the case and the NXX applies to two seperate routes.

There is a scanned record for Gortaroo on the Placenames Branch website but its in written Irish which I can neither decipher nor translate. There appears to be a date of 1935 but whether that relates to something else is for now a mystery! The Placenames Branch now displays a disclaimer when you try to follow the papertrail that states "Some of the documentation from the archives of the Placenames Branch is available here. It indicates the range of research contributions undertaken by the Branch on this placename over the years, but it does not constitute a complete record, and evidence is not sequenced on the basis of validity. It is on this basis that this material is made available to the public". There have been instances where signs have been erected based on names given by the placenames branch which have turned out to be incorrect and not as per local spelling.

As a matter of interest the oldest OS map that I can see on their website is the 25" from 1888-1913 so am interested to know what map you are referring to?

niloc1951

tonc76 wrote: »

...................As a matter of interest the oldest OS map that I can see on their website is the 25" from 1888-1913 so am interested to know what map you are referring to?

Maps show both Gortaroo and Gortroe, the former is a small townland to the north of the latter which is a village.
See HERE for reference to the village on a Dail question time regarding the provision of a sub-post office there in 1950
The village is also marked as Gortroe in Michelin maps, which also show the townland of Gortaroo adjacent, as does Google Maps.

Google 'gortroe youghal' to find multiple results for the village, including St. Itas GAA, a nursing home, etc. etc..
Ask a local and it will be confirmed that their village has always been know and listed on legal documents as Gortroe and up to the recent change in signage has always been signed as Gortroe (some of which still are in place).
It appears clearly obvious that those charged with uprating the signing have got it wrong and chose the name of an adjoining townland in error for the replacement signage to the village.

There seems to be a distinct lack of commitment to 'getting thing right' and providing value for money when it comes to road signage in this part of County Cork, as mentioned elsewhere on this forum.

spacetweek

mathepac wrote: »

It bears no relationship that I can work out with the identifiers I have on the signposts.

No - they aren't meant to be the same. The L numbers that have appeared in recent years on signposts have always existed in County Council offices but have only appeared on the ground lately. They are road numbers, not postcodes.

spacetweek

I do not think that road signage is generally bad in Ireland, though it is patchy at best on local roads. But then you're not meant to be using them for navigation, only for getting to and from properties. I have rarely had problems with signage on Regional or National roads or motorways. The last few road trips, I did not use a map or Satnav at all, and had no problems.

That said, the improvement has almost entirely taken place in the last 5 years. Before that, it was abysmal, even in the middle of towns, and even on motorways.

Improvements I've noticed in the last few years:
Signage on motorways is up on gantries and lists more destinations than before, not just the control city
Two poles are used for ground-level N and R signs so the issue of them getting turned around is removed
Regional signage is no longer the "fingerpost" style but is UK/europe/rest of world "Flag" style - much clearer and easier to read
Local L-roads have an identifying sign and are mentioned on directional signs
Most (maybe not all?) former N-roads have been updated with R signage

The issue seems to be that since all this will take many more years to become widespread around the country, many people still encounter problems in their area. I haven't personally visited one of those areas, though, so I don't know how bad it is.