The decline of PHP?

The Corinthian

I came across the following interesting statistics courtesy of the Tiobe Index, which polls frequency of online mention of languages.

Given the rise in popularity in mobile development, it's hardly surprising that languages such as Objective-C are rising in popularity (with both Java and C# also benefiting from their use in the mobile area).

What did surprise me to a degree was the drop suffered by scripting languages, such as Ruby, Python and PHP. JavaScript has probably benefited at their expense, but that would not explain their (in some cases) catastrophic drops in the above index alone, IMHO.

What do people this means in terms of scripted versus native languages and Web development, where the former are principally used?

jmcc

The Corinthian wrote: »

I came across the following interesting statistics courtesy of the Tiobe Index, which polls frequency of online mention of languages.

Not sure if it is a reliable survey.

What do people this means in terms of scripted versus native languages and Web development, where the former are principally used?

It is mixing a set of environments (webservices, apps development etc) but I think that PHP will dominate the low end of the webservices market for the immediate future. In the monthly TLD surveys that I run, the numbers of Joomla and Wordpress installations are growing and there's a slight indication of sites moving away from the old static HTML model. However many of the websites in these TLD surveys are still using static HTML and they are classic brochureware sites that can remain unchanged for a year or more. JSP sites seem to be somewhat rarer these days but some of the high end catalogue/e-commerce sites not using PHP will probably be using ASP or .NET. I'd have to check back through the data to be certain.

Regards...jmcc

web designer meath

I'd say php will remain; it's open source and is used on a lot of platforms. In my experience, there's a lack of php programmers vs demand.

Webmonkey

web designer meath wrote: »

I'd say php will remain; it's open source and is used on a lot of platforms. In my experience, there's a lack of php programmers vs demand.

Is it actually that hard to find PHP developers? I thought there would be plenty of them around. I personally think PHP will go no where either.

The Corinthian

jmcc wrote: »

Not sure if it is a reliable survey.

I can't comment to that, but would think that it's in the right ballpark.

It is mixing a set of environments (webservices, apps development etc) but I think that PHP will dominate the low end of the webservices market for the immediate future. In the monthly TLD surveys that I run, the numbers of Joomla and Wordpress installations are growing and there's a slight indication of sites moving away from the old static HTML model. However many of the websites in these TLD surveys are still using static HTML and they are classic brochureware sites that can remain unchanged for a year or more.

I think you will still see a lot of lower-end, especially CMS-driven, sites running off a LAMP set-up for some time to come. However, this is not really what I was getting at; I was looking more at actual development rather than sites using installations that happen to be written in PHP.

web designer meath wrote: »

I'd say php will remain; it's open source and is used on a lot of platforms. In my experience, there's a lack of php programmers vs demand.

Certainly there is a lack of good PHP programmers out there, but that's often because PHP is such an easy language to get into, much more forgiving than most and because there is a wealth of cut-n-paste resources out there. This has led to a proliferation of pretty poor programmers, which I cannot imagine has helped the reputation of PHP. Salary/contract rates reflect this if you compare what you'd pay a PHP developer versus a C# or Java developer.

Webmonkey wrote: »

I personally think PHP will go no where either.

I think there's a definite danger of that, but it's still by far more popular than any potential sever-side Web alternative language. Given this, so much on the Web has been productized as CMS's, shopfronts, etc, where one would have once had to write a bespoke app, that the demand for real bespoke applications (and thus real programmers) as taken a big hit.

It's interesting that Python and Ruby also took hits in the above index. Is it perhaps more of a move away from scripted languages to native ones? And if so how would this affect Web development?

Giblet

The Corinthian wrote: »

I can't comment to that, but would think that it's in the right ballpark.

I think you will still see a lot of lower-end, especially CMS-driven, sites running off a LAMP set-up for some time to come. However, this is not really what I was getting at; I was looking more at actual development rather than sites using installations that happen to be written in PHP.

Certainly there is a lack of good PHP programmers out there, but that's often because PHP is such an easy language to get into, much more forgiving than most and because there is a wealth of cut-n-paste resources out there. This has led to a proliferation of pretty poor programmers, which I cannot imagine has helped the reputation of PHP. Salary/contract rates reflect this if you compare what you'd pay a PHP developer versus a C# or Java developer.

I think there's a definite danger of that, but it's still by far more popular than any potential sever-side Web alternative language. Given this, so much on the Web has been productized as CMS's, shopfronts, etc, where one would have once had to write a bespoke app, that the demand for real bespoke applications (and thus real programmers) as taken a big hit.

It's interesting that Python and Ruby also took hits in the above index. Is it perhaps more of a move away from scripted languages to native ones? And if so how would this affect Web development?

The backend interaction / integration of these languages VS something like .Net or Java remains a barrier to entry. All the backend systems in our eCommerce system are written in .NET, including stuff like handheld scanner software and other non web related stuff. The people maintaining these apps prefer to use the same language for developing the web stuff too. We could have web services written to handle this, but we don't have many guys who have good PHP and C#, and we don't have discreet roles within the company that would allow someone to be an expert in something and not the other. I get the feeling it's similar in a lot of other places too. PHP or any other scripting language wouldn't come into play at all really.

For pure web development, it's probably a reasonable choice to pick a scripting language and just get things done, but the limits of the language become apparent when scaling up and sideways.

I myself haven't looked at PHP in a good 8 years at this point, and I don't see that changing either beyond something like quick brochure page or blog.

jmcc

The Corinthian wrote: »

I think you will still see a lot of lower-end, especially CMS-driven, sites running off a LAMP set-up for some time to come. However, this is not really what I was getting at; I was looking more at actual development rather than sites using installations that happen to be written in PHP.

It is actually possible (most of the time) to differentiate between a Joomla/Wordpress CMS and a custom development. The process used here for web classification has approximately 1500 different REGEXPs so that it can break sites (typically about 300K sites but on some months, over a million sites are surveyed) down by usage. Custom development is still relatively rare though as most sites do not require such complexity.

Given this, so much on the Web has been productized as CMS's, shopfronts, etc, where one would have once had to write a bespoke app, that the demand for real bespoke applications (and thus real programmers) as taken a big hit.

I think that Apps are a natural migration path for real programmers (as opposed to web developers).

It's interesting that Python and Ruby also took hits in the above index. Is it perhaps more of a move away from scripted languages to native ones? And if so how would this affect Web development?

It could be a popularity trend. Early in a language's lifetime, there will be a lot of interest and the chatter level would rise. As more people become proficient with it and applications for the language are found, much of that early lifetime chatter will die away. High end development always concentrates expertise and this might explain some of the decrease in that index - those who are good with those languages are busy working with them and don't have to time to discuss them on the web. It is a silo effect.

Regards...jmcc

stevenmu

The Corinthian wrote: »

Certainly there is a lack of good PHP programmers out there, but that's often because PHP is such an easy language to get into, much more forgiving than most and because there is a wealth of cut-n-paste resources out there. This has led to a proliferation of pretty poor programmers, which I cannot imagine has helped the reputation of PHP. Salary/contract rates reflect this if you compare what you'd pay a PHP developer versus a C# or Java developer.

Also known as "The VB Effect"

I think actually that PHP has some of the same strengths and weaknesses as VB. Both are designed as being 'low barrier to entry' languages that make an easy platform for RAD. Both very much allow an 'anything goes' approach. Both allow for excellent code to be written, but both also allow for terrible code to be written which makes them attractive to terrible developers, and consequently both have developed a bit of a reputation (although VB's rep in this regard still eclipses PHPs).

I think as other languages/platforms have progressed, they have become much more appealing. Looking at the MS platform there has been huge improvements from Classic ASP to ASP.Net 1.1 to ASP.Net 2.0 to ASP.Net MVC. ASP.Net MVC is now very appealing as a simple RAD platform, as well as supporting enterprise style architectures. I'm not as familiar with the Java side of things, but I believe it has progressed along similarly.

PHP as far as I'm aware has not progressed hugely, though I'm open to correction on this.

And from looking at other programming forums and sites, all I ever hear about Ruby (both with and without Rails) is how much the community hate each other. It's may well be a fine language, but nobody ever seems to take the time to get that across.

Python seems like a good language from what little I've used of it, and seems to be popular academically, but I don't know if it offers any benefits over other languages/platforms that would allow a good business case to be made for it.

jmcc

stevenmu wrote: »

Also known as "The VB Effect"

Yep but most people use PHP as a presentation language rather than one deeply involved with crunching data. VB, to some extent, is also very much a presentation language for most people. It is possible to use PHP as an ordinary scripting language (without the web aspect) but I don't think that many people do that.

Regards...jmcc

ocallagh

Webmonkey wrote: »

Is it actually that hard to find PHP developers? I thought there would be plenty of them around. I personally think PHP will go no where either.

You can find a PHP developer at the corner of every street, and that's the problem.. it's very difficult to find decent ones.

The Corinthian

jmcc wrote: »

I think that Apps are a natural migration path for real programmers (as opposed to web developers).

True. Programmers write apps, Web developers implement those apps.

Perhaps the reason for the falloff in interest in scripting languages is because those apps have reached a level of maturity and flexibility that Web developers no longer need to hack the code to fulfill requirements as much as they used to?

It could be a popularity trend. Early in a language's lifetime, there will be a lot of interest and the chatter level would rise. As more people become proficient with it and applications for the language are found, much of that early lifetime chatter will die away. High end development always concentrates expertise and this might explain some of the decrease in that index - those who are good with those languages are busy working with them and don't have to time to discuss them on the web. It is a silo effect.

Fair point.

stevenmu wrote: »

Also known as "The VB Effect"

Talk to me about it - it took me years to 'unlearn' all the bad habits I had picked up from VB

jmcc wrote: »

Yep but most people use PHP as a presentation language rather than one deeply involved with crunching data. VB, to some extent, is also very much a presentation language for most people.

Any language which is not fully understood by the 'developer' will end up a presentation language, regardless of how powerful it is in reality.

It is possible to use PHP as an ordinary scripting language (without the web aspect) but I don't think that many people do that.

True. PHP is a nice language, but while it's been implemented for use outside the Web server, it's not really taken off there.

For example, I've written Win32 executables using PHP, but to do so was really a bit of fun and by no means would I write anything 'serious' with it. I think Giblet hit it on the head when he spoke of what was essentially skill sets and HR management in companies being a big factor; highly skilled people who can write in 10 different languages proficiently are expensive, after all.

Trojan

I'm very sceptical about the nature of this decline. It's a decline in discussion of PHP as surveyed? Or a decline in "high end" development? Smacks of elitism.

PHP is the most in-demand skill on programming jobs websites (example). One could possible say that it's in decline because it's reached its peak, but I believe that's a specious argument.

Now, I'm off to to create a GUI interface using Visual Basic to see if I can track an IP address...

The Corinthian

Trojan wrote: »

PHP is the most in-demand skill on programming jobs websites (example). One could possible say that it's in decline because it's reached its peak, but I believe that's a specious argument.

OMG!!! I just had a quick look at some of the contracts on that site. My favourite was:

"Budget: Less than $500. Fixed Price Job - I have two ideas for smart phone app
I need to build the app and upload it to market (both of them). more details we be delivered securely for the chosen bidder"

WTF!!?? I want you to agree to build something for a fixed price but I won't tell you what it is until you've agreed to build it... and that's before you consider the miniscule budget.

Do freelancers in the developed World actually get their work through these places?

Trojan

The Corinthian wrote: »

OMG!!! I just had a quick look at some of the contracts on that site. My favourite was:

"Budget: Less than $500. Fixed Price Job - I have two ideas for smart phone app
I need to build the app and upload it to market (both of them). more details we be delivered securely for the chosen bidder"

WTF!!?? I want you to agree to build something for a fixed price but I won't tell you what it is until you've agreed to build it... and that's before you consider the miniscule budget.

There is some crazy, crazy stuff on there. Sometimes you'd think you were reading 27b/6.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Do freelancers in the developed World actually get their work through these places?

I have done on occasion in the past but don't bother bidding very often these days - when most of your competitors quotes are orders of magnitude cheaper it's difficult to win a contract.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

The Corinthian wrote: »

OMG!!! I just had a quick look at some of the contracts on that site. My favourite was:

"Budget: Less than $500. Fixed Price Job - I have two ideas for smart phone app
I need to build the app and upload it to market (both of them). more details we be delivered securely for the chosen bidder"

WTF!!?? I want you to agree to build something for a fixed price but I won't tell you what it is until you've agreed to build it... and that's before you consider the miniscule budget.

Do freelancers in the developed World actually get their work through these places?

$500 isn't that low. Last year I did an Android app for $200 on oDesk and it was fairly complicated, had to download XML from the web and insert into phone SQLite database and let the user search and view the data.

It's a race to the bottom on those freelancing sites. Thank god this year I'm getting some local work where I can charge a bit more. But when I had no local contracts, might as well keep busy.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

Webmonkey wrote: »

Is it actually that hard to find PHP developers? I thought there would be plenty of them around.

As people said, it's the level of experience with PHP coders.

Skill levels vary enormously, look at Magento. Getting your head around that e-commerce system and the EAV database and being able to write plugins is pretty hard, I can't image someone who just writes simple php/mysql scripts being able to do it.

The Corinthian

georgiecasey wrote: »

$500 isn't that low. Last year I did an Android app for $200 on oDesk and it was fairly complicated, had to download XML from the web and insert into phone SQLite database and let the user search and view the data.

How many hours word did that entail, including the tendering and any billing/admin process? If it took you any longer than 18 hours (less than half a working week), then might I suggest you get a job in McDonald's instead?

georgiecasey wrote: »

Skill levels vary enormously, look at Magento. Getting your head around that e-commerce system and the EAV database and being able to write plugins is pretty hard, I can't image someone who just writes simple php/mysql scripts being able to do it.

We were talking about programmers, someone who simply "writes simple php/mysql scripts" is unlikely to be a programmer.

Trojan

That said, on the flip side I hired a coder from the states with 30 years experience through a freelancing site - paid him a significant amount, and he did a super job for me. Project came in on budget, and the EUR:USD rates and his low cost of living in the mid-west helped a lot.

The Corinthian

Trojan wrote: »

Project came in on budget, and the EUR:USD rates and his low cost of living in the mid-west helped a lot.

Don't get me wrong; if you live somewhere where the cost of living is relatively low, then naturally it makes sense. Additionally, if you're a start-up with limited resources or a consultancy with a talent for IT sales and offshore PM, such sites are no doubt a godsend.

I just don't see how it would be worth anyone's while commercially, in Western Europe (with the possible exception of Portugal or Malta), to source their work through such a site.

$200 for some "fairly complicated" app development, FFS! Even tech publications like Dr Dobbs pay more for an article that you can write inside of a few hours and at least they have the decency to only call it an honorarium.

OK, I think I've just dragged my own thread totally off topic...

Giblet

georgiecasey wrote: »

As people said, it's the level of experience with PHP coders.

Skill levels vary enormously, look at Magento. Getting your head around that e-commerce system and the EAV database and being able to write plugins is pretty hard, I can't image someone who just writes simple php/mysql scripts being able to do it.

$200 is literally chump change for that kind of development.


Off-Topic: EAV = Model of Satan.

Our old e-Commerce system used it, even for displaying HTML. Jesus H Christ.
Thank god we moved away from it to something sane.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

The Corinthian wrote: »

How many hours word did that entail, including the tendering and any billing/admin process? If it took you any longer than 18 hours (less than half a working week), then might I suggest you get a job in McDonald's instead?

Yeah, it was definitely less than minimum wage but what can you do, it was a bad year. My affiliate marketing campaigns had taken a nosedive. You've gotta get some cash in. Thank God it's picking up well this year and I'm kinda making a name for myself.

This is usually the response I get when I mention the low payings job I've done, people assume I'm a crap programmer
[/quote]

We were talking about programmers, someone who simply "writes simple php/mysql scripts" is unlikely to be a programmer.

OK, a lot of people call themselves PHP progammers yet have no experience with MVC frameworks like Zend Framework or EAV data model. They're used to jumping into phpMyAdmin and manually adding products or whatever, you can't do that with Magento. It takes a while to get your head around it so it's all about experience with the software.

The Corinthian

georgiecasey wrote: »

Yeah, it was definitely less than minimum wage but what can you do, it was a bad year.

I said it; get a job in McDonalds.

OK, a lot of people call themselves PHP progammers yet have no experience with MVC frameworks like Zend Framework or EAV data model.

The problem I've found is a lot of people call themselves PHP progammers yet can't actually program beyond the simplest cut 'n paste hack.

They're used to jumping into phpMyAdmin and manually adding products or whatever, you can't do that with Magento. It takes a while to get your head around it so it's all about experience with the software.

What's being proficient with the use and implementation of an application got to do with programming?

Kavrocks

The Corinthian wrote: »

What's being proficient with the use and implementation of an application got to do with programming?

I'm still trying to figure that out myself.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

The Corinthian wrote: »

I said it; get a job in McDonalds.

I would if I could, a job in McDonalds is highly sought after these days. I went for a baggage handler job in an airport but didn't get it.

Do you mind me asking where do you work or do you own your own company?
People who are established in a job or in their business don't realise how bad it is out there. Especially when you've never had a 'real' job like me. Since 2006 I was an affiliate marketer making big money on ringtones and weight loss rebills on Adwords, Facebook ads and regular SEO sites.

Suddenly in 2010/2011 the traffic sources clamped down and all that income went and I had to take on programming jobs wherever I could get them.

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

The Corinthian wrote: »

What's being proficient with the use and implementation of an application got to do with programming?

Kavrocks wrote: »

I'm still trying to figure that out myself.

What I meant was figure out the SQL to add a product to the database. Load up phpMyAdmin and execute the SQL and see if it worked. If it did, use it in your PHP script. You can't just run 'INSERT INTO products (`id`,`name`) VALUES (NULL, 'widgets')' on Magento.

Lol, I'm used to this, when people hear you charging very little they need to think you know nothing so they can justify their rates.

Giblet

What about design the back end of an e-Commerce solution and design the database? Insert scripts are code janitor work

The Corinthian

georgiecasey wrote: »

Do you mind me asking where do you work or do you own your own company?

It's not really relevant as I'm not based in and have almost no commercial ties to Ireland.

More relevant, to your experience, would be that when the dotCom bubble burst, I had just made the error of going freelance myself. IT work dried up faster than a date who has to pay for her own dinner but I quickly realized that the only way to survive, and even thrive, in that environment was to offer a skill set that could not be sourced cheaply and package myself professionally.

But most importantly to be ruthless about business. If it doesn't make a profit, do something else. Development not making a profit? Perfect, become an analyst/project manager, specialized in a particular market sector or technology, sell the work to a client and then get some coders in Malaysia to do the actual coding for $15 per day. But don't start selling yourself at a loss.

georgiecasey wrote: »

What I meant was figure out the SQL to add a product to the database. Load up phpMyAdmin and execute the SQL and see if it worked. If it did, use it in your PHP script. You can't just run 'INSERT INTO products (`id`,`name`) VALUES (NULL, 'widgets')' on Magento.

I'm sure you can insert products into a Magneto database directly using SQL - how do you think Magneto does it?

The important thing is knowing how the Magneto application interacts with the database and how data is stored, often in multiple tables. To do this you have to be able to read code, and I mean be proficient at it, but if you can you'll figure it out.

That's ultimately the difference between a 'Web developer' and a programmer. The former relies on third party applications that they have limited understanding of and even more limited capacity to modify, the latter does not need them because they can build their own if need be. From scratch.

Trojan

The Corinthian wrote: »

That's ultimately the difference between a 'Web developer' and a programmer. The former relies on third party applications that they have limited understanding of and even more limited capacity to modify, the latter does not need them because they can build their own if need be.

Let's not get into term definitions again, that didn't go too well last time and you've already dragged your own thread OT thrice

Colonel Panic

georgiecasey wrote: »

What I meant was figure out the SQL to add a product to the database. Load up phpMyAdmin and execute the SQL and see if it worked. If it did, use it in your PHP script. You can't just run 'INSERT INTO products (`id`,`name`) VALUES (NULL, 'widgets')' on Magento.

Lol, I'm used to this, when people hear you charging very little they need to think you know nothing so they can justify their rates.

The thing is you don't need to charge very little. There's loads of work out there if you're good.

I don't think anyone is assuming you're a crap programmer for doing the low end work, but you're devaluing what good programmers can do.

jmcc

The Corinthian wrote: »

We were talking about programmers, someone who simply "writes simple php/mysql scripts" is unlikely to be a programmer.

Right. I write simple php (small presentation stuff) and mysql "scripts". Of course some of those scripts have between 5K and 83K lines of code. My HTML, however, has been known to make web designers cry.

Some programmers might consider the web developers to have a hobbyist approach to programming. I think that part of it could be down to the web/non-web split. With the web, the barriers to entry are low and almost anyone can call themselves a web developer. (Web developers had the same issues with people who just grabbed a copy of Microsoft Frontpage and started calling themselves web designers.) With non-web programming, there are some constraints and the barriers to entry are often a bit higher. This can give rise to a certain elitism.

At the high end of large scale website development (working with databases with footprints over 100GB and high levels of traffic), you really need a knowledge of a wide range of languages and technologies. However that's a specialist case rather than a general one. Most of the web is brochureware. There's also the cookie-cutter CMSes and the small e-commerce sites. But it is a whole ecology stretching from the skyscrapers like Amazon to the PPC advertising on the side of the information superhighway. (DotBomb flashback moment. )

Regards...jmcc

MyPeopleDrankTheSoup

The Corinthian wrote: »

It's not really relevant as I'm not based in and have almost no commercial ties to Ireland.

More relevant, to your experience, would be that when the dotCom bubble burst, I had just made the error of going freelance myself. IT work dried up faster than a date who has to pay for her own dinner but I quickly realized that the only way to survive, and even thrive, in that environment was to offer a skill set that could not be sourced cheaply and package myself professionally.

But most importantly to be ruthless about business. If it doesn't make a profit, do something else. Development not making a profit? Perfect, become an analyst/project manager, specialized in a particular market sector or technology, sell the work to a client and then get some coders in Malaysia to do the actual coding for $15 per day. But don't start selling yourself at a loss.

That's fine advice to become an analyst, whatever work that entails but how do you get it? I was starting at 0 with no local reputation or clients. I applied to loads of Irish PHP and online marketing jobs, got 9 interviews in 2011 but got none of them. I had to get some cash in so oDesk was alright at the time and I couldn't afford to worry about selling myself at a loss. I'm delighted I will never have to work at the slave rates again and Irish business is picking up for me. Also, 95% of coders on oDesk are crap so they're not much competition to normal firms.

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm sure you can insert products into a Magneto database directly using SQL - how do you think Magneto does it?

The important thing is knowing how the Magneto application interacts with the database and how data is stored, often in multiple tables. To do this you have to be able to read code, and I mean be proficient at it, but if you can you'll figure it out.


That's ultimately the difference between a 'Web developer' and a programmer. The former relies on third party applications that they have limited understanding of and even more limited capacity to modify, the latter does not need them because they can build their own if need be. From scratch.

Completely off topic, but yeah, it's about 10 to 30 SQL inserts, each product attribute is a different row, EAV is a headwreck but very flexible to add features you need to your shopping cart site.

Colonel Panic wrote: »

The thing is you don't need to charge very little. There's loads of work out there if you're good.

I don't think anyone is assuming you're a crap programmer for doing the low end work, but you're devaluing what good programmers can do.

I agree now that there's loads of work, the emails and phone calls are flying in, but before you develop a name or a base of clients, it's hard to find it.